Lagering Temp?

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zephed666

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Hey All! Finishing up my yeast starter (WLP830) for my first lager and planning to brew a simple bitburger clone this weekend and had a question about the lagering temperatures...
I am following a BYO recipe that states - pitch and ferment at 55 , d rest at 60 for 2-3 days, lager at 38-49 for 4 -6 weeks...
I assume this is correct but all other lagering tips I have been reading say to ferment at about 48, d rest and then slowly lower to close to freezing 33 degrees...
am I just overthinking this at this point? :)
 
White Labs data sheet on 830 recommends fermenting at 50*-55*. Fermenting at different temps from the manufacturers recommendations can alter the characteristics of final beer.

It’s forgiving and should produce clean crisp beers.



Shoot for 52-53 to give wiggle room to stay in White Labs range. See how it turns out and then experiment with other methods to compare and then be able to manipulate flavors with different methods.
 
I usually ferment in low to mid temp range that is recommended for the yeast being used (lager or ale), so for this yeast, NSMike's temp looks good.

D rest works best if started before air lock activity completely finishes, and 3 days would be a bare minimum time for it. I usually ramp up temp to 64 over a couple of days, 3-4 days there then ramp down & crash. So entire D rest takes about a week.

I like to crash and lager at closer to 30-32F
 
48 seems too low for fermentation. IMO lagering above 33 is more traditional (IE the process started before refrigeration)....but of course nothing is set in stone.

I have seen one "fast" method lager technique that seems interesting: haven't tried it yet (but seems easy enough if you have a floating hydrometer). Begin at 55 and ferment until 50% attenuation. Bump to 57 until 75%, then bump 62 until 90%. Finally, bump to 66 and that also takes care of your diacetyl rest. Continue with preferred lager conditioning.
 
48 seems too low for fermentation.

48F is a fairly typical traditional lager fermentation temp. A lot even start lower and rise to ~48. My "default" lager ferm temp is 50F.

I would agree that most people today are fermenting higher than that. Sometimes a lot higher. But I don't think it's (for the most part) helping the beers, from what I've tasted.
 
I treat every beer the same. It’s just easier for me.

I ferment Lagers at 55°F, Ales at 65°F, until 1-2% of extract remains, closed transfer to a keg with a spunding valve set to 2 bar installed, raise the temp to 60° F for Lager, 70°F for Ales, to secondary there for 7 days.

Then, I move the keg to a temp controlled freezer set at 35°F and apply CO2 serving pressure to condition.

It stays at 35°F until I need the keg but not less than 7 days.
 
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There are a gazillion ways to do the ferment/lagering and as long as you're reasonable, your beer will turn out well. The big question is, what is your purpose? Are you perfecting a recipe or do you want to make a good tasting beer? I don't think that you will taste any difference between a 50 F and 55 F lager fermented beers. Some people say they can but I would like to see a blind taste test. I will flat out say that I can't taste the difference. I typically like to brew a Czech Pilsner WLP-802. It's close enough to the WLP-800 you use from a fermentation temperature profile perspective. My fermentation procedure is:

- Pitch at 50 F and let it go until a noticeable slowing in the bubbling (4-7 days)
- Ramp to 65 F in 2 deg/day increments, let the diacetyl rest at 65 F for 4 days
- Transfer to Corny keg and force carbonate 17 psig at 39 F
- Lager for 4-6 weeks
- Serve at 9 psig

We all do it a little different and I'm willing to bet that they all turn out well. Also remember that if you place the temp probe on the outside of the fermentation container (I use glass), the temp at the center of the wort will be 2-3 F higher than the outside of the glass. Hope it helps!

Cheers!

Ryan
 
My house pilsner recipe is loosely based on Bitburger. I've tried 830 before but it isn't my go to yeast.

I would personally ferment between 48°F and 50°F. For this, you will need a ton of yeast. For a pitch rate, go for 2.5m/mL/°P. And if you are using a pitch rate/starter calculator online, adjust it by 25%. I have counted multiple starters using those calculators and they average 25% low. So I typically put in 3m/mL/°P as a pitch rate to end up with 2.5m/mL/°P.

I do not do a d-rest. I haven't needed to. The process of fermentation creates butanedione (diacetyl) and yeast turn that into butanediol (which has a much higher taste threshold). The reason a d-rest is needed is because the yeast have gone to sleep (technical term) and need some help waking back up to clean up. IMO, this happens because of an under pitch. Pitch enough healthy yeast and there will be enough still working to clean up without the need of a d-rest. This all goes out the window if you are using a yeast that produces a lot more diacetyl than others. Before you automatically do a d-rest, take a sample and heat it slightly. If you taste diacetyl, do a d-rest. If you don't taste it, don't do a d-rest.

For me, lagering is done below freezing, 30°F or so. Lagering time really depends on you. I like to taste it after 2 weeks. If I like it, I tap it. If I think it could use more time, I go another week.
 
The process of fermentation creates butanedione (diacetyl) and yeast turn that into butanediol (which has a much higher taste threshold).

So much to like in your post (so I did), but one really small nit to pick... Or maybe just a clarification, depending on terminology... "fermentation" (i.e. the yeast) makes alpha-acetolactate and leaks it into the beer. In the beer, alpha-acetolactate is oxidized to diacetyl (regardless of the presence of further yeast/fermentation activity), which the yeast (hopefully) subsequently absorb and convert to butanediol (via acetoin).

If by process of fermentation you're including "all the stuff that normally happens in the fermenter," I agree 100%.

I only mention this because a lot of people have had diacetyl appear in their cold, kegged beers well after fermentation was finished, because it formed (via oxidation of alpha-acetolactate) after they had essentially shut down the yeast via reduced temps.
 
So much to like in your post (so I did), but one really small nit to pick... Or maybe just a clarification, depending on terminology... "fermentation" (i.e. the yeast) makes alpha-acetolactate and leaks it into the beer. In the beer, alpha-acetolactate is oxidized to diacetyl (regardless of the presence of further yeast/fermentation activity), which the yeast (hopefully) subsequently absorb and convert to butanediol (via acetoin).

If by process of fermentation you're including "all the stuff that normally happens in the fermenter," I agree 100%.

I only mention this because a lot of people have had diacetyl appear in their cold, kegged beers well after fermentation was finished, because it formed (via oxidation of alpha-acetolactate) after they had essentially shut down the yeast via reduced temps.

Yes, exactly. I was summing it all up using the phrase "process of fermentation" to keep my post a little less technical as I didn't want my point to get buried.
 
A lot of this has to do with what gear you have available. Some of the modified or fast lager schedules are born out of individuals without temperature regulated gear. I’m not in a hurry, I have multiple kegs and commercial beer to drink, if they take months, that’s fine with me. Whatever makes the best beer, not necessarily the fastest. I don’t like lagers that have ale-like esters and I don’t like twang.

My preferred schedule is to pitch at 48F and let free rise to 50F. Hold at 50F until you are nearing completion, then ramp up about 5F per day and do a D-rest at 66F for a week. I don’t cold crash to avoid suck back.

Transfer at ambient, add ascorbic acid and conditioning charge, purge 15 cycles and let keg carbonate in a cool place in the house for a couple weeks. This also uptakes any stray O2. I then lager at 34F for 90 days. Inject gelatin at about the 60 day point. I serve at 9 PSI, I’m liking the slightly lower 9 PSI these days.
 
Hey All! Finishing up my yeast starter (WLP830) for my first lager and planning to brew a simple bitburger clone this weekend and had a question about the lagering temperatures...
I am following a BYO recipe that states - pitch and ferment at 55 , d rest at 60 for 2-3 days, lager at 38-49 for 4 -6 weeks...
I assume this is correct but all other lagering tips I have been reading say to ferment at about 48, d rest and then slowly lower to close to freezing 33 degrees...
am I just overthinking this at this point? :)


I came across the BYO Lagering For Beginners article. I thought I would share as it seems consistent with your steps but adds some why's and to limit the temp changes gradually each day.

here you go:

Lagering for Beginners​

Brewing lagers can be very intimidating for new homebrewers — which is one of the reasons most begin with brewing ales. But, if your favorite beer styles to drink are Pilsners, märzens, bocks, etc…, then you can’t run from lagering! Once you understand the differences between brewing lager and ale, the extra steps really aren’t too difficult. It will, however, take a little more patience and equipment.
Before we get to lagering, let’s make sure we are all on the same track in defining what a lager is. The biggest difference between lager and ale is the yeast — lagers use bottom-fermented yeast while ales are top fermented. The conditions these yeast thrive in is also different, as most lager yeasts perform best at 50–55 °F (10-13 °C), while ale yeasts generally perform best from 60–70 °F (16–21 °C).
The actual brewing process is similar for ales and lagers (it can be different, but often times that is because of the difference in the German and English brewing traditions that continue to influence how ales and lagers are brewed … but that is a topic for another day). The real difference comes after the wort is cooled. Read the yeast label you are using to find the ideal temperature for fermentation. At cooler temperatures, fermentation will not appear as active as it is when fermenting ales. This is expected, however, so do not give into temptations to turn the heat up if the bubbles in your airlock never appear very rapid. The cooler fermentation temperature is needed in ensure the yeast metabolism byproducts are kept to a minimum.
When active fermentation appears nearly done, it is time to do a diacetyl rest where you want to slowly bring the temperature up to around 60–65 °F (15–18 °C) and hold it there for a couple of days. This warmer temperature speeds up the conversion of alpha-acetolactate to diacetyl and makes the yeast more active so it is in a better state to convert diacetyl (which, in turn, reduces the unwelcome buttery taste found in flawed lagers).
After the diacetyl rest it is time for the cold conditioning period (called lagering). Carefully rack the beer into a secondary fermenter (a keg if you have one, a fermentation bucket or carboy if you don’t) and gradually reduce the temperature 1–2 °F (1 °C) each day until stabilized at your lagering temperature, which should be somewhere down around 30–45 °F (-1–7 °C).
Over this lagering period the beer will clarify and the taste will mellow out and improve as the yeast and haze-forming proteins drop out of suspension. How long of a lagering period you’ll need is dependent on the temperature (the colder it is, the longer lagering period is required) as well as the beer style (higher alcohol beers take longer to lager). While a little time can be saved by lagering on the higher end of the scale, cooler temperatures result in a smoother tasting and clearer lager.
With temperatures in the 40s–50s °F (4–10 °C) required during fermenting a lager and colder than that for lagering, brewing lagers requires a way to control and maintain cool temperatures. Homebrewers usually resort to a chest freezer with a temperature controller, a lagering chamber large enough to house your fermenter, or a recirculating pump and thermometer setup.

Written by Dawson Raspuzzi​

Issue: January-February 2015


Lagering-BYO
 
I start off with cool wort (because it’s been cooled in an ice bath) and pitch when it approaches 48F. I’ll ferment in the low 50’s until the bubbles come minutes apart. I’ll then rack to secondary leaving the majority of yeast behind but leaving enough for a 1/8 or 1/4 inch layer when it finally drops out. I’ll then lower the temperature 1 or 2 F per day until I get to 34F or so.
This slow drop allows the yeast to stay active and reduce diacetylmorphine and residual sugars.
When you lower the temperature, chemical compounds that aren’t very soluable in beer will drop out. I’ll also add polyclar which produces an noticeably darker layer on the yeast.
If the chemicals that drop out have flavors, by removing them you have altered the flavor of the beer.
The beer spends 6 weeks in secondary because by then it’s time to ship to the National Homebrew Competition. Traditional breweries use 2 or 3 months.
 
I pitch at about 48-50, ferment at 50-52 for 10 to 14 days. Let the temp rise to 60-62, usually a day or two, then let it sit in that range for 3 days, slow crash to low 30's over a week to clarify and keg. At kegging I check FG and for diacetyl. If I'm not at my expected FG or pickup diacetyl (or too much for the style), then I let the keg sit in the low 60's again for a week or two then cold crash again to lager.
 
My house pilsner recipe is loosely based on Bitburger. I've tried 830 before but it isn't my go to yeast.

I would personally ferment between 48°F and 50°F. For this, you will need a ton of yeast. For a pitch rate, go for 2.5m/mL/°P. And if you are using a pitch rate/starter calculator online, adjust it by 25%. I have counted multiple starters using those calculators and they average 25% low. So I typically put in 3m/mL/°P as a pitch rate to end up with 2.5m/mL/°P.

I do not do a d-rest. I haven't needed to. The process of fermentation creates butanedione (diacetyl) and yeast turn that into butanediol (which has a much higher taste threshold). The reason a d-rest is needed is because the yeast have gone to sleep (technical term) and nee and for the last few years d some help waking back up to clean up. IMO, this happens because of an under pitch. Pitch enough healthy yeast and there will be enough still working to clean up without the need of a d-rest. This all goes out the window if you are using a yeast that produces a lot more diacetyl than others. Before you automatically do a d-rest, take a sample and heat it slightly. If you taste diacetyl, do a d-rest. If you don't taste it, don't do a d-rest.,

For me, lagering is done below freezing, 30°F or so. Lagering time really depends on you. I like to taste it after 2 weeks. If I like it, I tap it. If I think it could use more time, I go another week.
My house pilsner is also based on Bitburger and the last couple of batches I fermented at 48 deg F and left it there. I have to say those last 2 batches were by far the best lagers I've brewed. You said 830 wasn't your go to yeast, care to share your go to yeast?
 
My house pilsner is also based on Bitburger and the last couple of batches I fermented at 48 deg F and left it there. I have to say those last 2 batches were by far the best lagers I've brewed. You said 830 wasn't your go to yeast, care to share your go to yeast?

I used to love 2206 but something changed during covid and it started to not ferment as well. I need to try it again and see if things are back to the way to were. 2206 was my go to yeast. 835 is pretty good. I'm two batched into a RVA yeast but haven't had a finished product yet (one is lagering, which has old hops so I'm guessing it won't be great, and another is fermenting).
 
I used to love 2206 but something changed during covid and it started to not ferment as well. I need to try it again and see if things are back to the way to were. 2206 was my go to yeast. 835 is pretty good. I'm two batched into a RVA yeast but haven't had a finished product yet (one is lagering, which has old hops so I'm guessing it won't be great, and another is fermenting).
Thank you
 
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