brewmeister13
Well-Known Member
I don't think they were brewing IPA's. Some of them do APA, but it is mostly a German beer brewing crowd.
Interesting German Brewing PDF
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I don't think they were brewing IPA's. Some of them do APA, but it is mostly a German beer brewing crowd.
OP
OP
rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
You tell me. Get the sulfite test strips and see how much sulfite you consumed during your hot side. That then can tell you how YOU need to augment YOUR water profile to fit what YOU want.
For instance me and my system consume 25ppm of sulfite on my hot side process. So then I plan accordingly. Much like all of this, it is a process dependent variable.
Assuming you are oxygenating your wort doesn't the leftover sulfite get used up then?
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
It's my understanding that it gets used up (decomposed to Sodium sulphate) in the boil. I could be wrong though.
7 days since pitching and I'm within 6 points of where the FFT said I would go. Moving to secondary to hang for at least 3-4 weeks.
Closed loop racking method is super sweet. No external co2 required.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1468722022.758399.jpg
Closed loop racking method is super sweet. No external co2 required.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1468722022.758399.jpg
Mer-man
Well-Known Member
Can we revisit the use of copper? From http://byo.com/malt/item/1144-metallurgy-for-homebrewers
Claims that a good anhydrous oxide layer on copper will "protect it from any further interaction with the wort."
Do we have more serious reference data on the oxidative effect of copper with an anhydrous oxide layer, e.g. after baking it in the oven as BYO suggests.
Claims that a good anhydrous oxide layer on copper will "protect it from any further interaction with the wort."
Do we have more serious reference data on the oxidative effect of copper with an anhydrous oxide layer, e.g. after baking it in the oven as BYO suggests.
More questions:
1. How long does it take for the pressure to increase after racking? I have seen less than 1 psi increase since i kegged last night. Going out of town tomorrow for a couple days so should I just set to max setting on my spunding (30 psi)? Currently at 45F. I'd rather not fill the head space with bottle CO2 at this point to dial in the spunding valve.
2. I've seen some references here to 'match stick' odor from this method. Not sure i'd call this match stick, but this is by far the most "poop" smelling of any fermentation i've ever had. Couple ideas for this:
-I fermented primary under 3.5 psi of pressure - kraussen was less than 1cm at max. It would seem some pressure is effective in knocking it down. Maybe I trapped some sulfur compounds in? I'll aim for 2 psi next time I need some pressure so I can take gravity samples.
-What is the source of the sulfur smell? Is it the sulfite? Should i get test strips to verify and if necessary lower the amount of SMB i use?
-Will the sulfur smell age out? We're talking about 1 week old beer so I'm not worried about it, just looking for what to expect.
Thoughts?
1. How long does it take for the pressure to increase after racking? I have seen less than 1 psi increase since i kegged last night. Going out of town tomorrow for a couple days so should I just set to max setting on my spunding (30 psi)? Currently at 45F. I'd rather not fill the head space with bottle CO2 at this point to dial in the spunding valve.
2. I've seen some references here to 'match stick' odor from this method. Not sure i'd call this match stick, but this is by far the most "poop" smelling of any fermentation i've ever had. Couple ideas for this:
-I fermented primary under 3.5 psi of pressure - kraussen was less than 1cm at max. It would seem some pressure is effective in knocking it down. Maybe I trapped some sulfur compounds in? I'll aim for 2 psi next time I need some pressure so I can take gravity samples.
-What is the source of the sulfur smell? Is it the sulfite? Should i get test strips to verify and if necessary lower the amount of SMB i use?
-Will the sulfur smell age out? We're talking about 1 week old beer so I'm not worried about it, just looking for what to expect.
Thoughts?
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
If it's process dependent, why does your cult and it's master subscribe to the same SMB addition for everyone in your Bible/paper?
To be clear, how do you know you only use up 25ppm? And if so, why does everyone have to add the same amount?
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Kit_B
Active Member
We don't all use the same...That's just a starting point, for people who have never tried it & have yet to refine their process.
Brandon gave a better explanation than I can quickly give you:
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=464
OP
OP
rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
We came up for a one size fits all solution, for all the Joe brewers that like to use a whisk to dough in, and then fill the boil kettle with a 3 foot drop stream of wort.
Its in the thread, since you must have missed it... The use of sulfite strips.
If you suck as LODO, which almost all do, then the 100mg/l will cover most of it. We wrote the paper for the 1% of brewers, but understood the masses would get it as well.
Do you have a recommendation for which test strips to use?
Just as a benchmark, if you're good at LoDO, what is a concentration you can expect to need?
Mer-man
Well-Known Member
Hey guys, this handsome guy has a good question!
What support do we have for the claim that the oxide layer is very soluble? And would the method recommended by John Palmer for baking the copper parts create a less- or in-soluble oxide layer?
Or is it that the oxide layer ITSELF that rains on the method proposed here?
Do you need to use such inflammatory words?
I assumed it was a coverall that can then be adjusted if you have a DO meter and sulfite strips so you know how much DO you are getting during your process.
I'm sure that there was some before and after DO meter measurements done with copper chillers. If not, it's just hearsay. Seems like a lot of homework was done, however. I don't know how successful you'll be to get people to do a controlled experiment for you
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
You're right. I'm sorry.
I'm getting frustrated that after making claims like, "after 50+ LODO batches of all different kinds of lagers and ales, I can definitely say they are way better than before", and confident claims like "The beer is so much better this way that you'll want to dump out all your pipeline and start over!"
Then, while giving it all an honest try several batches in a row now, I ask what seems to me like a simple question that EVERYONE who espouses this process should know the exact answer to, and all I get is "it's process dependent."
Really? Then why are LODO devotees jumping all over people for not exactly following the process when, evidently, there is no process for Ales?
If that process has a paper, I'd like to read it, please. I like Helles, but it's not the only beer I drink.
Bilsch
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I, as well some of the other GBF members, use the Quantofix sulfite strips available through Amazon.
Kit_B
Active Member
There's really nothing to be frustrated about.
We recommend that people follow the Helles instructions, so they don't come to us afterward & say "Your method doesn't work".
If you follow the instructions correctly, it WILL work.
If your system is already addressing o2, you may find that you have to gas off some of the sulfur, but it will definitely work.
We verified this on the brewing systems used by 10 different guys (some with multiple brewing systems), before the paper was ever released.
Think of it like this...
If you want to bake cookies that are like Martha Stewart-perfect your first time outta the gate, you're going to follow the recipe, without omitting or changing what she says...
Why should this be any different?
We're not saying that you HAVE to do it our way...
We're saying "Try it...You'll like it".
And, if you don't want to follow the instructions we gave, we're saying "Please, don't blame us, if your changes to the process don't yield the same results that we got/get".
We spent an incredible amount of time chasing what we wanted from Helles, Festbier & Pilsner, with no care for brewing Stouts, IPAs & Sours...
We weren't out to revolutionize the craft brewing industry & never tried to fix the entire world of beer.
But, by mitigating the staling effects of o2 exposure, all our beers have improved.
Personally, I will never again brew a beer without taking steps to limit o2 exposure & if I taste what I know is stale beer in my pipeline...I WILL dump it.
Waite waite..... I tried to look this up but couldn't find anything. How would you go about gassing off sulfur???!?
For my first test batch I definitely overdid the SMB for my system. I did not follow the recipe outlined and made an ESB ale :fro: (I know, I know). I did follow most of the procedure and the beer is very good, noticeably different than normal. However, it has a terrible sulfur taste!!
Kit_B
Active Member
What was your SMB addition in mg/l?
You can bubble co2 into corny kegs through the liquid tube & repeatedly vent, to purge sulfur.
mrcastellino
Well-Known Member
Just finished reading this entire thread. I haven't been this interested in a brewing discussion on HBT since I started home brewing. Regardless of whether performing these brewing techniques ends up being worthwhile, credit to the group that spent all the time and effort to put this together and more importantly share it with all of us. Being willing to do that and then facilitate discussion is what advances home brewing for all of us in the quest for making better beer.
I plan to give this a go as I have a personal love for Bavarian lagers (helles, Dort, Dunkels, etc.) Lots of questions will come as I piece this together but for now one question that I have that I don't believe I saw brought up is the shorter boil time of 60 min coupled with a relatively low evaporation rate. With the use of Pilsner malt is DMS not an issue in the final beer? This is quite unconventional in that most brewing literature I have read encourages a vigorous boil for good hot break, etc., In fact a Helles that I have brewed with a 90 minute boil and standard evaporation rate (gallon per hour) received feedback from a very reputable judge that there was still a touch too much DMS and next time to boil harder.
I plan to give this a go as I have a personal love for Bavarian lagers (helles, Dort, Dunkels, etc.) Lots of questions will come as I piece this together but for now one question that I have that I don't believe I saw brought up is the shorter boil time of 60 min coupled with a relatively low evaporation rate. With the use of Pilsner malt is DMS not an issue in the final beer? This is quite unconventional in that most brewing literature I have read encourages a vigorous boil for good hot break, etc., In fact a Helles that I have brewed with a 90 minute boil and standard evaporation rate (gallon per hour) received feedback from a very reputable judge that there was still a touch too much DMS and next time to boil harder.
Kit_B
Active Member
Since I have adjusted my boil, I have seen no negative results.
Could there have been another source of what the judge was tasting?
Could the judge have been wrong?
What malt was used?
mrcastellino
Well-Known Member
Good to know it has not adversely affected the beer. I'll try the shorter boil and see what happens.
As far as the judge, 'too much' is of course inherently subjective so it may have been a non-issue and it was just nit picking. I personally found the beer to have some very low level of DMS but typical of what I pick up for beers with large percentages of pilsner malt. I don't think it was anything else for that matter either.
The pilsner malt used was Wyermann. I have a bag of Best Malz pilsner that I can use to see how it compares.
Thanks.
Kit_B
Active Member
Was it the floor malted?
NICE, It didn't even occur to me that the sulfur could be free and able to be released from the beer!!! I'm planning on brewing again tonight and will do this with the kegs of ESB.
I pre-boiled then dosed the strike water with 100mg/ml of SMB. With 20.5lbm grain @ 1.25qt/lb ratio (+0.72 gallons in false bottom, herms and hoses) and I had a strike water volume of 7.13 gallons dosed with 2.7 grams SMB.
I required a volume of 9.25 gallons strike water for a continuous sparge. My calculations show that I dosed 18 gallons of sparge water (to ensure that I had enough and covered the HERMS) with 25mg/l SMB (1.7 grams). In reality I probably only filled the HLT to cover the coil and still used the 1.7 grams. (and I did this math by hand .... there is always the possibility that I dosed with 2.7 SMB looking at the wrong number).
In my defiance of instructions
I did NOT start with RO water and use only calcium. I used my standard ESB water profile ( Ca=110, Mg=18, Na=17, Cl=49, S04=92 ). I adjusted the water profile in Brun Water to add 24ppm sodium and 76 ppm sulfate per 100ppm SMB in the finished water profile ( yea I know sulfur /= sulfate, but not 100% why and haven't researched). On a second review (when I brewed a still in fermenter PA) I noticed that I assumed ALL of the SMB added to the HLT for the sparge made it into the wort when only about half the HLT volume was used and corrected for that.My general process was:
- Add strike water volume to the boil kettle
- Add water to the HLT to above the coil
- Heat the HLT to Mash temp (148°F)
- Condition and mill grain
- When HLT hits mash temp, switch element and boil the strike water in the boil kettle
- boil 5 minutes, add SMB, rest 5 minute, add the rest of the salts
- Hook hoses up so that Boil kettle out goes to pump, goes to HERMS in, HERMS out goes to Boil whirlpool
- disconnect both hoses from boil kettle, hook to sink tp in and run water until it flow from the out
- hook utility CO2 line and blow hoses free of water and O2
- hook back to boil kettle
- re engage the HLT PID to hold mash temp
- recirculate through the HERMS to coil the strike water to within 3-5°F approach of mash temp
- once the strike water has cooled to mash temp underlet it into the Mash tun
- once all strike water has been transfered, move hose and recirculate mash. Inlet has a hose that comes down and lays gently on the top, partially submerged. Add the fancy tin foil Mash cap
- Ph reading
- Mash for 90min
- Ph reading
- at 90 minutes start to bring the HLT to a boil
- continue circulating the Mash until it reaches 170°F
- at 170°F stop recirculating the Mash and blow HERMS clear with the utility CO2
- Mash out above 168°F for 10 minutes (or realistically until the sparge water is ready)
- boil sparge for 5 minutes, add SMB, rest 5 minutes
- use HERMS coil connected to sink water to rapidly cool the HLT back to 168°F
- sparge water Ph
- Normal fly sparge at 0.2gallons/min
- remove yeast starter from fridge, decant
- add boil salts
- gravity reading
- normal boil
- run StarSan through copper convoluted chiller for 20 minutes
- at 15 minutes run boiling water through both pumps in series and chiller to sanitize
- rapidly chill
- whirlpool with both pumps
- 15 minute rest
- gravity, ph
- transfer gently with pumps through the conical bottom port
- add aprox 1-1/4 gallons of wort to the yeast starter
- aprox 2-6 hours later add the yeast starter to the wort and then oxinate
I think I just need to reduce the SMB amounts and more accurately calculate my salt additions. Knowing that I can off gas the sulfur really helps with being open to different amounts of SMB addition experimentation. Really need a DO meter!
mrcastellino
Well-Known Member
No I don't believe so. It was the standard 'German Pilsner Malt' and not for example one of their floor malted bohemian pilsner malt.
Do you recommend any particular maltsters for a Helles?
beersk
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It'll also age out in a couple weeks as far as I understand, yes?
Kit_B
Active Member
I'm gonna be completely honest with you...
I have no idea, because I haven't had to wait.
Brewed an Amber today using the bread yeast and dextrose water treatment method and SMB. A change from the brew I made a few days ago using saison yeast and DME.
Filled kettle for full volume mash, added yeast/sugar to ~30C water and let it be while I weighed/milled/prepped, added campden and waited 5-10min before mashing in. I didn't stir at all to mash in this time instead I sprinkled the grain across the top and let it slowly settle in. Took a bit longer but I think it was a better approach. This time the mash had nearly zero smell at all which is definitely different than the rich aromatics Im used to. It was feint at best and thats giving it some.
As interesting as this was I couldn't taste anything different in the flavor of the wort sample beyond what Im used to. The sample was great, malty and toasty, but nothing night and day different. While I can't say I'm noticing a difference in flavor right now we'll see how things taste once I actually tap these batches. I'm also still interested to see what influence all of this might have on long term stability.
Filled kettle for full volume mash, added yeast/sugar to ~30C water and let it be while I weighed/milled/prepped, added campden and waited 5-10min before mashing in. I didn't stir at all to mash in this time instead I sprinkled the grain across the top and let it slowly settle in. Took a bit longer but I think it was a better approach. This time the mash had nearly zero smell at all which is definitely different than the rich aromatics Im used to. It was feint at best and thats giving it some.
As interesting as this was I couldn't taste anything different in the flavor of the wort sample beyond what Im used to. The sample was great, malty and toasty, but nothing night and day different. While I can't say I'm noticing a difference in flavor right now we'll see how things taste once I actually tap these batches. I'm also still interested to see what influence all of this might have on long term stability.
beersk
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From what I've been reading, it should dissipate. Just need to have patience. I don't think I used to high of a dose, but maybe it's a sign that my process was solid? I used 1.2g SMB in each the mash and sparge water that was preboiled for 5 minutes. I'm not worried about it.
Not tasting any of the lingering fresh malt flavor though yet, sulfur might be too strong still.
ParanoidAndroid
Well-Known Member
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but in doing a quick search I didn't see anything.
How do you adjust for Na and SO4 in the Brewn Water spreadsheet when adding SMB?
Say you add 1.0 grams of SMB to your water. What is the outcome of that if you have 5 gallons of Distilled water in grams of Na and SO4?
How do you adjust for Na and SO4 in the Brewn Water spreadsheet when adding SMB?
Say you add 1.0 grams of SMB to your water. What is the outcome of that if you have 5 gallons of Distilled water in grams of Na and SO4?
I blew CO2 through the keg that I have on tap a couple times and the sulfur flavor dropped off rapidly! I could only get a couple purges in before I got foam out of the PRV, but they were all that were needed to make a difference. I'll purge it a couple more times before I drink it again.
The second keg I'll see if it dissipates naturally.
I added a SMB Dosage for mash and boil in mg/l.
I adjust the Sodium overall finished water profile by adding the terms +24[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage mash[mg/ml] / 100) + 24[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage sparge[mg/ml] / 100)
Sulfat overall finished water profile is adjusted by adding the terms (and I'm not 100% sure I'm right here???
) +76[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage mash[mg/ml] / 100) + 76[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage sparge[mg/ml] / 100)Next to this I calculate how many grams to add. I fly sparge so I note how much water is in the HLT and dose all of this after I boil post mashout (I boil the strike water and dose in the boil kettle).
The red percentage values are my percent off targets. I use these with a macro to automatically determine doses of minerals. As you can see with the example I am 90% over on Sodium and should have used some RO water (but I didn't
) ....Martin mabrungard I hope this screenshot falls under what is OK to share, if not I will remove it. <removed. I'd forgotten that the sheet is locked.
Looks like you've discovered a trick to unlock his spreadsheet....
beersk
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I don't know if he'll be okay with that or not. But I guess if you're one who knows the ins and outs of excel, it wouldn't take much to "unlock" a spreadsheet, no?
I've been wondering lately myself how one would calculate the added SMB dosage using Bru'n water. I've been just adding it and not really factoring it into my water profile. Maybe I need to rethink that...
Hmm, forgot that the sheet was originally locked 
I pulled a fresh copy from email and the target water profiles are not locked. So alternatively you can accomplish the same thing by moving the adjustment so that it subtracts from the target profile and providing yourself a note so that you remember that you did that. The Cations and Anions will not match. To keep yourself from getting confused I would add as a separate entry. So that you have a say Pilsen water profile you would then have a "Pilsen with SMB" profile that subtracts the requirements from the Pilsen.
I pulled a fresh copy from email and the target water profiles are not locked. So alternatively you can accomplish the same thing by moving the adjustment so that it subtracts from the target profile and providing yourself a note so that you remember that you did that. The Cations and Anions will not match. To keep yourself from getting confused I would add as a separate entry. So that you have a say Pilsen water profile you would then have a "Pilsen with SMB" profile that subtracts the requirements from the Pilsen.
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
Is anyone with a DO meter using speisse or krausen to package?
All the goop in my kegs is gross, and more importantly, killing my total number of clear pints
All the goop in my kegs is gross, and more importantly, killing my total number of clear pints
Is anyone with a DO meter using speisse or krausen to package?
All the goop in my kegs is gross, and more importantly, killing my total number of clear pints
Yeah my two have taken a long time to come clear due to final fermentation in serving keg. I've been impatient so drawing samples off and my first one came clear in three weeks. I may need to be more patient and just wait for three weeks for everything to drop out before pulling pints.
That makes me feel better. Thought I might have done something wrong.
