Interesting German Brewing PDF

[KeyWestBrewing]

I can't help but wonder a couple things....

Since this seems like this is something German breweries have been onto for some time now then why the hell would Speidel design a system that introduces so much HSA during the mashing process? The way this has all been presented these systems trample on all the knowledge you'd assume they are well aware of being a company located in Germany that produces brewing equipment.
The other thing is what other breweries implement all of this? It was asked before but there really wasn't much of an answer given other than Michelob Original and that Bud has too much rice. If this is as crucial as its being made out to be then it would make sense that every single brewery AB Inbev buys out would start implementing these procedures. That or they're knowingly allowing breweries they own to disregard procedural understanding and continue making an inferior product. While possibly true thats a tough pill to swallow.
Now Im not on one side or the other with all of this Im just trying to look at the context of it all and see things for what they are.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Using degassed water is not exactly a secret.

Loads of illustrious people like Kunze, Narziss, Fix... are very clear about this issue.

But home brewers don't have degassing columns or membranes. So the use of SMB is a, in my view, elegant way of achieving similar without huge trade-offs or investment.

Unfortunately too much has been crammed into the suggested approach (the 'paper'). Concentrating on the water and fermentation aspects alone will produce quite noticeable results.

I see the 'paper' not as a scientific paper, but more of a writeup of a series of experiments where collective findings from studying the brewing texts mentioned above, were published.

For more in-depth treatment and ample data I would suggest a copy of Wolfgang Kunze's book -- which is also available as english translation.

Of course one can do very good beers in other ways. For some styles it may not be appropriate even. The focus here was purely on German Lagers. For wheat beers and ales the story may be a little different. For e.g. I found that using too much SMB in wheat beer has negative effects post fermentation.

 

[Kit_B]

Now Im not on one side or the other with all of this Im just trying to look at the context of it all and see things for what they are.

That's good, because there are no sides.
We all just want to make better beer.

Unfortunately too much has been crammed into the suggested approach (the 'paper'). Concentrating on the water and fermentation aspects alone will produce quite noticeable results.

Right...This was an attempt at an all-encompassing guide to achieving the freshness we were seeking & had found, by implementing the listed methods.
It's a lot to cover, in one shot...But, it is worth the effort.
Once you start doing these things, they easily become like second-nature & good brewing habits begin to form.
It takes a little un-learning & re-learning, but the method really makes some amazing light lagers.
I highly recommend that everyone give it a few tries.

 

[Iseneye]

I can't help but wonder a couple things....

I'm going to sound like I've got my head in the sand but I don't care what other breweries are doing. I've done LODO, there is a difference in flavour and I'm going to continue doing LODO.

Not all German breweries use LODO techniques. I went to a small brewery in Konstanz (Joh. Albrecht) and they had the liquor flowing from either the mash tun or the boiler through an open hole to the kettle / fermenter below.

 

[Spartan1979]

I'm going to sound like I've got my head in the sand but I don't care what other breweries are doing. I've done LODO, there is a difference in flavour and I'm going to continue doing LODO.

Not all German breweries use LODO techniques. I went to a small brewery in Konstanz (Joh. Albrecht) and they had the liquor flowing from either the mash tun or the boiler through an open hole to the kettle / fermenter below.

Some German breweries use coolships. That certainly isn't LODO either.

I'm still thinking about this, but there are many ways to homebrew and one should just do what suits you.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I'm going to sound like I've got my head in the sand but I don't care what other breweries are doing. I've done LODO, there is a difference in flavour and I'm going to continue doing LODO.

Not all German breweries use LODO techniques. I went to a small brewery in Konstanz (Joh. Albrecht) and they had the liquor flowing from either the mash tun or the boiler through an open hole to the kettle / fermenter below.

None of this really answers my questions though lol. Out of curiosity have you been DO testing at every step? Have you almost nailed everything and had it all slip away by the slightest misstep? Im not trying to hassle you Im just curious because its laid out to be a razor thin line without any grey area. One shot one kill or once its gone its gone. But, if your not hitting everything to a T and still seeing general improvement because your introducing less HSA then its not that drastic. Im not sold on this blink and its gone in a flash stuff but I understand where limiting unnecessary oxygen exposure throughout your process helps the shelf life of your beer.
Personally I'd like to experiment with this Brewtan B stuff Ive been reading about. If it works as advertised its a much bigger game changer than people overhauling their whole set up and turning brewday into a process where your walking on eggshells.

 

[Iseneye]

None of this really answers my questions though lol. Out of curiosity have you been DO testing at every step? Have you almost nailed everything and had it all slip away by the slightest misstep? Im not trying to hassle you Im just curious because its laid out to be a razor thin line without any grey area. One shot one kill or once its gone its gone. But, if your not hitting everything to a T and still seeing general improvement because your introducing less HSA then its not that drastic. Im not sold on this blink and its gone in a flash stuff but I understand where limiting unnecessary oxygen exposure throughout your process helps the shelf life of your beer.
Personally I'd like to experiment with this Brewtan B stuff Ive been reading about. If it works as advertised its a much bigger game changer than people overhauling their whole set up and turning brewday into a process where your walking on eggshells.

Its all good. If youve read most of this thread there is plenty of discussions on why people think it wont work and wont make a difference. Ive seen this on other topics which is frustrating. Rather than trying to find reasons why this wont work people should give it a go and find out for themselves.

With regards to testing I purchased a DO meter but it was faulty and I am waiting for replacement. I wont know how low the DO is until I get it back. All I can say is that the wort is completely different and the colour of the final beer is far lighter. Ive made a LODO APA that has a similar grainbill as my standard APA with med crystal and it is nearly as pale as a blonde ale.

 

[Magnus314]

Rather than trying to find reasons why this wont work people should give it a go and find out for themselves.

This is exactly the problem.

There's about $600 or $800 worth of stuff required to do this process as stated in the pdf, and no one seems to have (or want to) isolate the "big difference" things from the relatively minor gains.

And how is anyone doing this process with Ales? It lays out very specific ferment temps, well below ale range.

If you did do an ale with this process, you'd just have to wing it on about half the steps.

 

[Iseneye]

This is exactly the problem.

There's about $600 or $800 worth of stuff required to do this process as stated in the pdf, and no one seems to have (or want to) isolate the "big difference" things from the relatively minor gains.

And how is anyone doing this process with Ales? It lays out very specific ferment temps, well below ale range.

If you did do an ale with this process, you'd just have to wing it on about half the steps.

Yes good points on the cost. I already fermented in kegs and keg my beers. Extra cost for me was stainless steel chiller and a spunding valve. IMO a DO meter is not necessary if you follow the steps in the recipe. I bought mine becausw I got the LODO bug.

Ive only done 2 ales so far and no lagers. 2 lagers are next up. Fermentation is at standard ale temps and no lagering period. Other than that the steps are the same. Dry hopping can be tricky but my current dry hopped american brown ale seems to be working.

Im sure Im coming across evangelical as a recent convert but Im super happy with the results so far.

 

[orangehero]

It's important to specify what DO meter you are using. The previously mentioned Extech DO600 meter is pretty much useless beyond 1 ppm DO while they are talking about sub 1 ppm being meaningful. It's not even clear what kind of instrumentation was used to come up with the data and conclusions in the original article.

 

[Iseneye]

It's important to specify what DO meter you are using. The previously mentioned Extech DO600 meter is pretty much useless beyond 1 ppm DO while they are talking about sub 1 ppm being meaningful. It's not even clear what kind of instrumentation was used to come up with the data and conclusions in the original article.

Im the one who questioned that earlier in this thread. DO600 has a stated accuracy of 0.4ppm from memory.

 

[TexasWine]

This is exactly the problem.

There's about $600 or $800 worth of stuff required to do this process as stated in the pdf,

I dunno about that dollar amount. I made a spunding valve for about $25 and a mash cap from a stainless steel cake pan for about $15. Assuming you already have the ability to control fermentation temps, I don't see any other additional costs. $40 total in upgrades is what I spent. Might be missing something though.

From what I've read you don't even have to keg with this method if you don't want to.

 

[schematix]

Dry hopping can be tricky but my current dry hopped american brown ale seems to be working..

What does your LoDO dry hopping process look like?

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Its all good. If youve read most of this thread there is plenty of discussions on why people think it wont work and wont make a difference. Ive seen this on other topics which is frustrating. Rather than trying to find reasons why this wont work people should give it a go and find out for themselves.

With regards to testing I purchased a DO meter but it was faulty and I am waiting for replacement. I wont know how low the DO is until I get it back. All I can say is that the wort is completely different and the colour of the final beer is far lighter. Ive made a LODO APA that has a similar grainbill as my standard APA with med crystal and it is nearly as pale as a blonde ale.

So since your not able to test yet theres a chance your LODO beers aren't actually passing the LODO standards and your still noticing a positive difference right? If true then it would suggest people don't have to go whole hog and score 100% to get some noticeable benefits. If its all or nothing then its pointless to half ass any part of it and it shouldn't be done at all if you can't do it completely right. But if its not, this stands to help a lot more people that can't afford to go all in by implementing what they can into their process knowing they'll get something out of it.

I dunno about that dollar amount. I made a spunding valve for about $25 and a mash cap from a stainless steel cake pan for about $15. Assuming you already have the ability to control fermentation temps, I don't see any other additional costs. $40 total in upgrades is what I spent. Might be missing something though.

From what I've read you don't even have to keg with this method if you don't want to.

Depends on your set up. I don't see how my Braumeister could recirculate the mash or drain the wort any different than it does which puts me out right there. Im also not set up for doing closed system transfers(yet lol) and all the other CSA tricks. Heres the catch though... if a person isn't verifying everything they're doing to a T with a DO meter then how do they know if they ever truly got it all right in the first place?

 

[wobdee]

FWIW, I haven't gone full hog so to speak following the lodo document, still need some things for cold ferment and spunding but I'll get there eventually. Just the addition of smb and pre boiling water into my process was an eye opener, my light lagers are heads above what I used to brew.

I also have a Braumeister and it seems to work fine for this with a full volume no sparge brew. I don't think there's a way to add a tight mash cap but leaving the lid on can help.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I also have a Braumeister and it seems to work fine for this with a full volume no sparge brew. I don't think there's a way to add a tight mash cap but leaving the lid on can help.

I figured all the splashing these things make when they spill over would be an issue.

 

[wobdee]

I figured all the splashing these things make when they spill over would be an issue.

I modified my malt pipe for 3 gal batches by drilling holes around the side. The wort just slides down the side with do splashing. The only splashing I get is lifting the malt pipe to drain and I do that very slowly little by little.

Even before I modified I didn't seem to have any splashing as the wort flowed over the malt pipe. Is yours sitting level?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

None of this really answers my questions though lol. Out of curiosity have you been DO testing at every step? Have you almost nailed everything and had it all slip away by the slightest misstep? Im not trying to hassle you Im just curious because its laid out to be a razor thin line without any grey area. One shot one kill or once its gone its gone. But, if your not hitting everything to a T and still seeing general improvement because your introducing less HSA then its not that drastic. Im not sold on this blink and its gone in a flash stuff but I understand where limiting unnecessary oxygen exposure throughout your process helps the shelf life of your beer.
Personally I'd like to experiment with this Brewtan B stuff Ive been reading about. If it works as advertised its a much bigger game changer than people overhauling their whole set up and turning brewday into a process where your walking on eggshells.

I purchased some Brewtan B from Australia and used it on the last batch. A 3.25 gallon Black IPA that is currently being dryhopped. I tasted a sample before dryhopping and I had almost no hop aroma. Im thinking its a recipe and nylon hop bag problem. The hop bag had liquid in it after raising it. I only squeezed a bit so there was still some left in the bag. ill be direct pitching hops from now on.

One thing of interest is an experiment in the German Brewing forum using dry yeast and DME to deplete oxygen levels in the premash water (8 gallons). The DO levels were comparable to boiling and chilling to mash temps. Which makes sense since Yeast devours oxygen. The O levels were @0.47 ppm after 20 minutes and 0.18 ppm after 15 hours.

13 grams of yeast and 13 grams of DME (he later uses 6 grams Dextrose) were used. The yeast would just die off at high temps and become nutrient, and the sugar increase in minimal. One could do this to save time, then hit it with the SMB to keep O2 from re-entering and Brewtan B to keep the oxidation process to a minimum.

I might try this next and just use the yeast/sugar the night before since DO levels stay low for so long.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I modified my malt pipe for 3 gal batches by drilling holes around the side. The wort just slides down the side with do splashing. The only splashing I get is lifting the malt pipe to drain and I do that very slowly little by little.

Even before I modified I didn't seem to have any splashing as the wort flowed over the malt pipe. Is yours sitting level?

I see. I don't own the system so no mods here. I doubt its perfectly level but I think the pump is just too strong on the 20L. I don't have this problem on the 200L because I dial back the pump speed.

I purchased some Brewtan B from Australia and used it on the last batch. A 3.25 gallon Black IPA that is currently being dryhopped. I tasted a sample before dryhopping and I had almost no hop aroma. Im thinking its a recipe and nylon hop bag problem. The hop bag had liquid in it after raising it. I only squeezed a bit so there was still some left in the bag. ill be direct pitching hops from now on.

One thing of interest is an experiment in the German Brewing forum using dry yeast and DME to deplete oxygen levels in the premash water (8 gallons). The DO levels were comparable to boiling and chilling to mash temps. Which makes sense since Yeast devours oxygen. The O levels were @0.47 ppm after 20 minutes and 0.18 ppm after 15 hours.

13 grams of yeast and 13 grams of DME (he later uses 6 grams Dextrose) were used. The yeast would just die off at high temps and become nutrient, and the sugar increase in minimal. One could do this to save time, then hit it with the SMB to keep O2 from re-entering and Brewtan B to keep the oxidation process to a minimum.

I might try this next and just use the yeast/sugar the night before since DO levels stay low for so long.

Interesting. And this is done in the mash tun?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I see. I don't own the system so no mods here. I doubt its perfectly level but I think the pump is just too strong on the 20L. I don't have this problem on the 200L because I dial back the pump speed.



Interesting. And this is done in the mash tun?

Premash. Im BIAB so I would treat all my water with the yeast/sugar combo, wait the appropriate time (20 minutes or 15 hours...either amount of time seems like low DO levels). This would eliminate the boiling then chilling step. Add your smb and brewtan, then mash in.

This is the way I am reading it anyway.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Premash. Im BIAB so I would treat all my water with the yeast/sugar combo, wait the appropriate time (20 minutes or 15 hours...either amount of time seems like low DO levels). This would eliminate the boiling then chilling step. Add your smb and brewtan, then mash in.

This is the way I am reading it anyway.

Sounds simple enough. My LHBC is supposed to have a club brew coming up I might do a side by side adding in this step and compare differences over time.

 

[TexasWine]

Not sure if y'all have seen this MoreBeer article, but it touches on a few of these Low DO items.

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer

Of particular note....

"DO meters are not suitable for measuring HSA, since on the hot side dissolved oxygen will react with wort constituents before it can be measured. The classical Indicator Time Test (ITT) is a good way to measure oxidation caused by HSA."

"A particularly elegant “fix-up” can be seen in the pilot brewery at Coors in Golden, Colorado. The once 100% copper brew kettle now has a stainless steel tube leading from the original kettle inlet at the top of this vessel to its bottom. What was once a splashing flow was replaced with a gentle laminar fill. I do not know how much the modification cost, but it clearly is a minute fraction of the price of the kettle."

 

[Magnus314]

If the paper must be followed strictly, here's a list of what it would take to do this "by the book", starting with my 3V or BIAB systems (either one):

Hot side-

SS wort chiller - ~ $70 if you get the cheap one from Amazon
SMB $5

(swapping out ALL brass ball valves, fittings, etc... testing and changing/replacing any tiny leaks in your pumps, etc. - $0 assuming everything just happens to be already perfect)

(DO meter - $225, but I'll leave that out for now)

Hot side test cost: $80 (to about $350 of you get a cheap meter and need to switch to stainless)

Cold side:
copper chiller (to use as pre-chiller to get wort down to 46F pre-pitch) - $0 because i already have one, and i think lots of others do, too

connectors, tubing, etc. to hack the two chillers together- $20 or so

aquarium pump (or any cheap pump) to recirc through the ice bath - $30

10-20 lbs ice per brew day - assume $0 and you saved it up

Spunden valves (2 minimum, 4 or more if they have to stay on the kegs through a long lagering period) - $60 assuming 2; $30 assuming 1 just to test

Extra kegs (because each batch now requires a 4-6 week lagering period, so 5-8 weeks per batch instead much faster turnaround times) - assume $0 and you have tons of extra kegs already, or you're only looking or the cost to try it once and are willing to wait 6 weeks to see if it worked first

Fermentation chamber or glycol cooler and temp controller to maintain 41F ferment temps and step down one degree at a time (no swamp coolers or stashing it in your serving keezer) - $200 - $1,000 or more, let's assume $200 because you hacked it together all yourself.

Extra CO2 tank + regulator and connections to purge kegs, lines, transfer, etc. - $100 on the cheap side

99.99% pure CO2 for serving (so you don't lose the mojo in a week) - don't even know, have no idea where to even get this...

Then, cut all your dip tubes, cut down your gas in connectors, and make all transfers under gas.

Cold side: $380+ depending on what you have already


Now, on the other hand, if the copper chiller WAS NOT a deal killer, and If I COULD pitch warmer (than 46F) and drop it to ferment temps after it's in the fermenters, SMB is $5 and pre-boiling is no big deal.

If ferment temps were only a guideline, and it didn't blow off all the malt flavors at 50F, and if I could rack it from the fermenter to the keg with 2% or so left to go to, and stick it in my kegerator to finish and condition, while checking it with my existing regulator and just pulling the relief if it gets too carbed, the Cold Side test would be basically $0.

But when some people tried to do it like this without dropping serious coin, they got railed against, and now the constant refrain is "just try it".

 

[jddevinn]

Not sure if y'all have seen this MoreBeer article, but it touches on a few of these Low DO items.

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer

Of particular note....

"DO meters are not suitable for measuring HSA, since on the hot side dissolved oxygen will react with wort constituents before it can be measured. The classical Indicator Time Test (ITT) is a good way to measure oxidation caused by HSA."

"A particularly elegant “fix-up” can be seen in the pilot brewery at Coors in Golden, Colorado. The once 100% copper brew kettle now has a stainless steel tube leading from the original kettle inlet at the top of this vessel to its bottom. What was once a splashing flow was replaced with a gentle laminar fill. I do not know how much the modification cost, but it clearly is a minute fraction of the price of the kettle."

Good point. The paper here and many brewing text point out how fast the reaction of oxygen with the other components are, once the interaction takes place the O2 will no longer be present to measure.

However, I think for the HSA process the meter can be used to determine where oxygen uptake occurs. 0.1ppm at HLT and transfer to grain and now at 3ppm then there is a oxygen ingress happening somewhere in the process!

I've thought about this with cold side too. IF i manage to find a cheap used meter that can read in the .1ppm range I would have to keg the beer and almost immediately push some out to measure O2, wait a couple days and it has already reacted.

 

[TheHairyHop]

One thing of interest is an experiment in the German Brewing forum using dry yeast and DME to deplete oxygen levels in the premash water (8 gallons). The DO levels were comparable to boiling and chilling to mash temps. Which makes sense since Yeast devours oxygen. The O levels were @0.47 ppm after 20 minutes and 0.18 ppm after 15 hours.

13 grams of yeast and 13 grams of DME (he later uses 6 grams Dextrose) were used. The yeast would just die off at high temps and become nutrient, and the sugar increase in minimal. One could do this to save time, then hit it with the SMB to keep O2 from re-entering and Brewtan B to keep the oxidation process to a minimum.

oh wow, this is very interesting. I guess I'd be wondering about oxygen uptake while heating the strike water. SMB?

 

[Iseneye]

So since your not able to test yet there's a chance your LODO beers aren't actually passing the LODO standards and your still noticing a positive difference right? If true then it would suggest people don't have to go whole hog and score 100% to get some noticeable benefits. If its all or nothing then its pointless to half ass any part of it and it shouldn't be done at all if you can't do it completely right. But if its not, this stands to help a lot more people that can't afford to go all in by implementing what they can into their process knowing they'll get something out of it.

Yes, I do not know if I am passing the LODO standards. I am currently relying on the testing / methodology that the German Brewing forum outlined but adapted for ales. I believe that I am benefiting from both hot side and cold side adaptions from the methodology and I don't know which side is the biggest impact. Hot side I can tell there is an effect due to the sweet tasting, light wort. Cold side I am expecting good stability because of the closed fermentation.

To determine if any steps can be removed it would involve changing parameters on multiple batches. I believe the German Forum guys have effectively done this and I am not keen to do the work.

With respect to the dry hopping question from another poster I am a massive fan of cold keg hopping but I can't do this with the LODO method. Other posters have mentioned hopping in the primary as fermentation slows down but for ales I am transferring from the primary keg to secondary keg within 4 days and I assume a lot of hop aroma is lost doing this. I ferment in a larger keg and hook the primary in post to the secondary out post. A spunding valve is then put on the secondary keg which effectively turns the secondary keg into a giant airlock. This is purged of 02 during primary fermentation. I'm not confident that the 02 is reduced to zero with this technique. Anyway, I put a bag of hops in the secondary prior to fermentation starting. My concerns are that the hops are sitting in an 02 environment until the secondary is purged and the escaping primary C02 scrubbing hop aroma. Initial results on my young brown ale are positive but too early to say. I have left the hop bag in the secondary keg.

 

[techbrau]

As long as you are racking with fermentable extract and active yeast, you are fine. The secondary doesn't have to be completely purged before spunding so you can go ahead and add the dry hops when you rack. Just make sure to leave as little airspace as possible (fill the secondary vessel to the brim if you can).

 

[Iseneye]

As long as you are racking with fermentable extract and active yeast, you are fine. The secondary doesn't have to be completely purged before spunding so you can go ahead and add the dry hops when you rack. Just make sure to leave as little airspace as possible (fill the secondary vessel to the brim if you can).

Hmmm...interesting. The method states to purge the keg with SMB dosed water which results in very little CO2 in the receiving vessel. I assume the method is cover all bases / be extra safe so this minor shortcut may help me with dry hopping.

Thanks.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Yea, I believe that approach is contradictory to the recommendations of the PDF, but I didn't quite understand the PDF approach anyway. And if that yeast /dme method for reducing DO in the strike water is to be believed, I would infer that there shouldn't be much to worry about. Maybe adding a bit of dme solution to the dry hop keg would be beneficial?

 

[TexasWine]

The main problem I've had implementing this process is transferring to the keg with a few gravity points left. I simply don't have time to fool around with racking beer mid week. With that in mind, I started thinking about what drives the need to rack to the keg while the beer still fermenting. It seems to be driven by the fact that there is inevitably a little air, with oxygen, left in the keg even after purging with CO2. This is a consequence of the Cornelius keg design.

So after cogitating on this for a while I figured if I could get all the air out of the keg I wouldn't need to transfer while the beer still fermenting. That's when I stumbled upon this.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/morebeer-ball-lock-keg-rinser.html

I put Star San in the keg, close the lid, open relief valve, connect this contraption, fill with water until it comes out of the relief valve, then close the relief valve. At that point I disconnect the quick disconnect on the gas side but leave the liquid quick disconnect connected. I then lean the keg over so that the gas post, which has a shortened tube, is at the high point. I shake it a few times to make sure all the air bubbles travel to the high point. Then I press in the gas side poppet with something like a screwdriver. All the remaining air is vented from the gas in.

In doing this I believe I have been able to eliminate all air pockets from the keg, therefore also eliminating the need to transfer to the keg while the beer still fermenting. I don't have a dissolved oxygen meter so I have not been able to verify if I am picking up any oxygen and doing this. I believe it is working though.

 

[Iseneye]

I think the racking before full attenuation is for two reasons. One is for 02 protection as you mentioned and the other is to naturally carbonate in the keg. I've found having to rack midweek a bit tricky as well. On one I did it at about the right time but the second one I did too early and had a lot of activity in the secondary which entered the spunding valve.

 

[schematix]

Those who have carbonated in the keg before, what do you think is the possible range of gravities to rack at? I've seen 6 gravity points stated as ideal, but as others have pointed out, timing that dead on while also living life is tricky.

E.g. if i see its 10 points above FG what is the consequence of racking early? What about 20 points?

 

[techbrau]

Part of the beauty of the cold traditional lager fermentation is that you have a window of several days in which you can rack. I try to rack with 3-4 gravity points left but by the time the beer is this far fermented, it is dropping a fraction of a point per day. It can take another 2 weeks or so to hit FG after racking.

 

[Iseneye]

Those who have carbonated in the keg before, what do you think is the possible range of gravities to rack at? I've seen 6 gravity points stated as ideal, but as others have pointed out, timing that dead on while also living life is tricky.

E.g. if i see its 10 points above FG what is the consequence of racking early? What about 20 points?

I can't give a number but we are racking to a keg with next to no head space for fermentation. In my case because it was an ale I still had vigorous fermentation which blocked the spunding valve. I think I did one at 6 points successfully and one at 8 points unsuccessfully. Had to disconnect spunding valve and clean the yeast out from it. Both WLP001.

As Techbrau said it is more of an issue with ales where the approach to final gravity is done within 3-5 days.

 

[schematix]

Is racking with 8-12 points left to go safe to do?

Sometimes i'll only get a window once a week to rack. if i'm close i'd rather rack a few points higher than totally miss it.

 

[schematix]

I'm fermenting and serving in 5G (bottom) kegs so head space isn't an issue. I did a 13.5G batch of the Helles this past weekend so i've got about 4.5G in the kegs. So far no issues with head space.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1468460298.389769.jpg

Receiving kegs (top) were water purged, although they still have their original dip tubes for now.

 

[Iseneye]

Nice setup Mine isn't as pretty as yours...

 

[Iseneye]

I read a thread on probrewer.com regarding cold side post fermentation DO. One brewer stated 30PPB is not detrimental for most beers. That's 0.03ppm if my head maths is correct which is extraordinarily low.

http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?26775-Dissolved-Oxygen-levels-chart

 

[mabrungard]

Many low range DO meters can only report down to 0.4 ppm, so I'm not surprised that the indication is for less than 0.3 to be good. I'm sure that it is all relative, even lower oxygen is better but 0.3 ppm might be good enough.

 

[TexasWine]

I think the racking before full attenuation is for two reasons. One is for 02 protection as you mentioned and the other is to naturally carbonate in the keg. I've found having to rack midweek a bit tricky as well. On one I did it at about the right time but the second one I did too early and had a lot of activity in the secondary which entered the spunding valve.

I view naturally carbonating in the keg to be a consequence of racking before full attenuation, not a reason to do it. You can carbonate just fine with CO2 from the canister with no more O2 uptake than if you carbonated with remaining extract and simply use the canister for dispensing.

I've had the same issue with the spunding valve because I overfilled my keg. I had bubbles spurting out. Thankfully I had my relief valve pointing down and my gauge pointing up.