Interesting German Brewing PDF

[Gnomebrewer]

This is a very interesting read; thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed procedure.

I'm thinking about how I could adapt my system to these process and would be interested in hearing some thoughts.
I use a plate chiller. I believe the plates are copper. How much of an impact is this likely to have, and is pre-rinsing the copper with acid solution likely to help remove the oxide layer?

This has already been asked, but not answered. How would this work if bottling rather than kegging? (note: I do both - keg and bottle. I like to have some beer in bottles, but my bottling gun is crappy for oxygenation).

How do you manage to chill quickly to 5-6C?

How soon after adding yeast do you oxygenate?

Are plastic fermenters a problem with this process?

Is it worth flushing grain with CO2?

 

[TexasWine]

I believe the plates are copper.

That is a really good question. I use a plate chiller too and I believe the plates are brazed together with copper. Hopefully the minimal amounts of copper wing really have an impact. I have a stainless immersion chiller as well, but has planned on using it as a pre chiller when employing the LODO processes

 

[techbrau]

I can't guarantee how well copper will work in the Lodo process. A chiller is likely to be less damaging than a copper kettle, but it is still less than ideal. You should be able to rinse off the oxide layer with an acid like starsan. If at all possible I would use a stainless chiller.

For bottling with natural carbonation you can either add some krausen or priming sugar right before bottling but I would not wait too long as you don't want the yeast to fall asleep. The other option is to time your bottling such that you fill the bottles from the fermenter when you still have enough residual extract left to carbonate. It's basically the same idea as spunding but you're using a bottle instead of a keg.

You can also fill bottles from a keg but you will see flavor loss. Is is helpful to have extra SMB in this case. See here: http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=57&p=3318#p3318

I use an aquarium pump with a sterile filter and 0.5 micron stone to aerate after I pitch the yeast. I have the flow rate set very slow and measured that it delivers approximately 2-3 ppm oxygen per hour to the wort. I set it going immediately after pitching and let it go for about 4 hours. The yeast scavenge the oxygen faster than it can get in. If your yeast is freshly grown, they should start scavenging immediately so it's fine to aerate once the yeast are in solution.

None of us use plastic fermenters but I don't see it being an enormous problem since the beer is in the primary fermenter for such a short time. My lagers are pitched at 41F, fermented at 46F, then ramped down to 41F and ready to rack to the lagering keg - the entire primary ferment takes 6-7 days for me. Remember to pitch enough yeast! (20-30 million cells per ml for a 1.048 OG beer)

We haven't flushed grain with CO2 yet but I did think about vacuum sealing my milled grist in a bag and CO2 flushing the bag before doughing in. It's worth a try.

 

[TexasWine]

How are y'all bringing your temps down so low prior to pitching? Ice batch and pre chiller?

 

[techbrau]

I recirculate ice water through my IC using a utility pump and a bucket.

 

[jddevinn]

Interesting read. I'm still working through KUNZE and Brewing Science and Practice but I do see some interesting parallels in O2 from them and this. With the equipment I have I can set up the hot side fairly easily... I do all I can to avoid cold size oxidation (I've made some sizable rants in the past on the subject) but not anything to this detail. To get the low ppm target here I'll either have to look at using the "german method" of kegging and fermentation or preferably an alternative method to fully purge kegs and lines (probably with steam).....

Y'all make a lot of DO measurements... what Do meter are y'all using? Any suggestions on where to get one at a decent price point?

 

[Iseneye]

More questions:

What are you doing with yeast starters? With a stirbar there will be a lot of oxygen in the starter that is getting poured into the wort. Do you also worry about splashing when pouring the yest into the wort?

Do you think the capping of the mash is making a difference? Unless you are somehow making a seal then isn't air diffusion going to result in the same amount of 02 exposure as if it wasn't capped?

Any reason for not recommending 34/70 in the PDF? Has someone tried this method with 34/70 or is it an assumption that the dry yeast will not be as good?

 

[rabeb25]

Interesting read. I'm still working through KUNZE and Brewing Science and Practice but I do see some interesting parallels in O2 from them and this.

Y'all make a lot of DO measurements... what Do meter are y'all using? Any suggestions on where to get one at a decent price point?

Thats cause Kunze is in our references

Extech do600 I think. Thats what we all have.

 

[rabeb25]

More questions:

What are you doing with yeast starters? With a stirbar there will be a lot of oxygen in the starter that is getting poured into the wort. Do you also worry about splashing when pouring the yest into the wort?

Do you think the capping of the mash is making a difference? Unless you are somehow making a seal then isn't air diffusion going to result in the same amount of 02 exposure as if it wasn't capped?

Any reason for not recommending 34/70 in the PDF? Has someone tried this method with 34/70 or is it an assumption that the dry yeast will not be as good?

I don't make starters personally. I pitch 4 vials direct for the first pitch, then use slurry for all the rest.

Capping- Absolutely. Much smaller surface area for O2 to re-absorb.

I again personally HATE the flavor of 34/70, plus we found that without the Bavarian strains you don't get enough sulfur to carry over and help protect.

 

[Iseneye]

I don't make starters personally. I pitch 4 vials direct for the first pitch, then use slurry for all the rest.

Capping- Absolutely. Much smaller surface area for O2 to re-absorb.

I again personally HATE the flavor of 34/70, plus we found that without the Bavarian strains you don't get enough sulfur to carry over and help protect.

Thanks for the reply. Liquid yeast strains in NZ are around $14us per vial so won't be doing that. I haven't used 34/70 for a number of years but the lodo pitching rates are very high and 34/70 would have been a way round that. I'll be doing a starter.

 

[cladinshadows]

To clone Ayinger Jahrhundert, which, frankly is one of the main reasons (Augustiner, WO, take your pick) anyone is paying attention to this thread, how do YOU do it?

This hits the nail on the head. Jahrhundert was a major eye-opener for me the first time I had it, even just from a bottle in the US. It's got that certain... special... something. I had never tasted something like that before and I needed it in my kegerator. I still do.

Thanks, everyone, for the lively discussion and especially to the authors for what I feel is a very practical article in the context of presenting an ideal process from the perspective of the homebrewer. Maybe it's not easily achievable or necessary for the majority of us, but if your perfect beer is a Helles, Festbier, or Dortmunder like you had in Germany then I have to think that even a partial incorporation of these methods is worth trying in an attempt to advance your quest.

govner1 invoked the word of Mosher:

I think it was Randy Mosher that said " making really good beer is easy to do, understanding it is nearly impossible" or something similar to that.

While surely The Science can help many of us wrap our heads around or believe in someone's claim, I think I may be a Blue Pill Brewer when it comes to this one. If any of these methods gets me closer to what I tasted in Germany and what I taste in Jahrhundert, I'm trying it. I don't need to understand it - if it works, I'm certain it'll be worth the extra effort on my pale German brews. Two extra hours of "work" on a brewday pays back tenfold when you enjoy the results in dimpled mug for the next two months.

 

[stpug]

... for the next two months.

Two months?? You must have meant two weeks

 

[mabrungard]

Y'all make a lot of DO measurements... what Do meter are y'all using? Any suggestions on where to get one at a decent price point?

I saw this unit at the Craft Brewers Conference this month. Quite impressive...quite costly for the typical homebrewer: $2100 plus the communication unit which I believe was in the $600 range.

http://www.hamiltoncompany.com/products/process-analytics/sensors/dissolved-oxygen/visitrace-do/VisiTrace-DO-120

Can be used in wort to 80C and it is not damaged by temperatures up to 140C. The unit automatically stops measurement at 80C since the luminencent coating is damaged by the laser at higher temps.

 

[DonQuixote]

This article was kinda depressing. I thought I was making damn good beer but according to the Germans I've been making oxidized swill. My entire system needs to be overhauled. I guess i will have to buy a few German Helles examples and see for myself what the big deal is.

 

[ajdelange]

I saw this unit at the Craft Brewers Conference this month. Quite impressive...quite costly for the typical homebrewer: $2100

I use a Hach LDO (also optical) probe which costs a couple hundred bucks but has accuracy of 100 ppb at 0. Still out of range for a home brewer. And I'm guessing it won't handle the temperature either (the body is plastic but so is the sensor).

..plus the communication unit which I believe was in the $600 range.

This thing has standard industrial 4-20 loop output and should work with any 4 - 20 loop system. You could easily read it with an Arduino. You owe me $600 less the cost of the Arduino!

With the cheaper Hach unit you will, of course, need a meter (that takes intellical electrodes) to plug the electrode into. As all the brains are in the electrode you could probably kluge up an Arduino rig for this too.

 

[doug293cz]

I use a Hach LDO (also optical) probe which costs a couple hundred bucks but has accuracy of 100 ppb at 0. Still out of range for a home brewer. And I'm guessing it won't handle the temperature either (the body is plastic but so is the sensor).

...

A common rule of thumb for industrial measurement equipment is that it should have an accuracy and precision no worse than 0.1 of the level you are trying to measure and control. So, if we are trying to control DO to ~100 ppb, then our DO meter needs to have a resolution of 10 ppb or less, and an accuracy of +/- 10 ppb or less. So the Hach meter seems to be marginal, at best, for this application. The $2100 unit has a resolution down to 0.5 ppb, so is much more suitable (but totally out of the reach of most homebrewers.)

Brew on

 

[ajdelange]

I obviously wasn't suggesting the Hach element (which is fine for checking oxygenation of wort which is what I use it for) anymore than the Hamilton which is obviously for use on finished beer where ppb measurements are necessary. In electrical engineering we usually say the measurement noise should be 10 dB below the minimum you are trying to measure (as that introduces 0.1 dB error). Thus for 100 ppb we would want 'noise' below 32 ppb.

Many, many of us have had to make measurements below the noise level in our careers and, of course, the easiest way to do that is to average as long as you are certain the 'noise' is indeed noise i.e. not systematic error (bias). But then if it is bias and you can estimate it you can subtract it off. Etc.

 

[mabrungard]

This thing has standard industrial 4-20 loop output and should work with any 4 - 20 loop system. You could easily read it with an Arduino. You owe me $600 less the cost of the Arduino!

While reading the unit could be done with that equipment, I don't believe that is how it's powered or controlled. I think you would still have to use their equipment.

 

[UndeadFred]

Interesting. I made a decent Munich Helles for a local club comp (I'm still waiting for results). Tasted pretty much like the commercial examples side by side, different maybe a little (better than at least one of them from the Fatherland) but it seemed within style.

Joined the German Brewing Facebook group last night. Found out I made it completely wrong. Hmm...

I suspect that I can try to do some of the suggestions like Na-Meta (or K-Meta) and I've been trying to have an excuse to buy a Spunding valve for a long time anyway. However, this is much like the glass versus plastic fermenter experiment correctly criticized here by Marshall Schott. (I actually told him that was the first time I saw an article that had to be operator error... I called BS on it because there was no technical reason that the PET carboy should have taken off slower than the glass, if it were O2 the opposite would be expected and I still stand by that). In that, I suspect it doesn't matter. I won't use glass no matter what, it's dangerous. In the context of this LoDO stuff, I am with many of the other people. I'll hit the low hanging fruit but due to many constraints I will stick with BIAB, my electric fired keggle. I guess I will recirculate into a whirpool instead of the fly sparge style shower I have now, but I have to do it or my temperature stratifies too much.

Doing a transfer from my PET carboy to the keg with a spunding is certainly possible, I've already started to make a system where I start a siphon with CO2 to transfer, and I suppose I can just use it to push the entire bugger out instead of a siphon. The Spunding in the keg? It's okay, I don't mind the little bit of yeast at the end, it only matter when cleaning the kicked keg anyway...

But beyond that is major bucks.

What says the LoDo consensus on just those changes to the process? Worth it? Because that is about as far as I am willing to go.

 

[ajdelange]

I don't know of course but 4 - 20 is used in industrial settings all the time for it's noise immunity. In general you hook up the loop to your 4 - 20 'controller' which does no more than put a nominal voltage on the line. The device then controls the current in the loop to 4 mA for mimimum and 20 mA for maximum and the controller reads that current, D/A converts it and sends it on for processing. The processor needs to know what the min and the max are. With this arrangement you can out pH meters, DO meters, ORP meters, thermometers etc. all over your plant at locations quite remote from the control area. Is it possible to design a system that will only work with your proprietary controller? Sure. Is this one of those? Don't know.

Does this mean no cheque?

 

[mabrungard]

OK, I'll send the check when I pony up and buy the DO probe!

 

[Edelst0ff]

I ordered some as well. I don't trust that it will do the job that smb does in the mash so I'm looking more to see if it helps on the cold side first. Maybe the Brewtan will give a little extra protection post boil when the smb is all used up? Maybe help in finding as well?

Reading this interesting presentation, it looks like this requires a. Filter stage in order to remove it from the beer.

Not a problem for me but maybe not what some would contemplate.

One the upside they recommend coarse Diatomecous Earth in order to rid the beer of this product, and that is readily available on eBay.

 

[mabrungard]

Reading this interesting presentation, it looks like this requires a. Filter stage in order to remove it from the beer.

It only needs to be filtered, if its added during the packaging step. If added during mashing or in the kettle, it is precipitated in either the kettle or fermenter.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Indeed. Thanks for pointing this out.

BTW the EBC estimate I get from your spreadsheet is quite dead on to the actual Lodo result.

Must say I'm perplexed but it could be a false positive

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Found this article titled "An new alternative to increase the flavor stability of the beer". It discusses oxidation in wort. In sounds like an advertisement for the product mentioned "Antioxyn SBT". The product is a mixture of Gallotannins (which is what Brewtan B is), Potassium Metabisulfite (used in the LoDO paper), and Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C which has been mentioned in all this somewhere). An excerpt:

"The gallotannin, which seems to be the most effective potential anti-oxydant, needs to be
complexed with traditionnal ani-oxydant to increase its effect on the wort. Together with
metabisulfite of potassium and ascorbic acid, developped as Antioxin®SBT, the effect on
lypoxygenase can be improved"

https://www.uclouvain.be/cps/ucl/doc/inbr/documents/Declerck_2009_flavour-stability_beer.pdf

Another product is from BSG called Antiox C:

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/antiox-c-10-lb

Its comprised of Potassium metabisulphite, Ascorbic acid, and Sodium carbonate......so its similar to the other product, just without the gallotannins.

 

[rabeb25]

Correction, we use SODIUM Metabisulfite, not K. K concentrations above 10ppm in the mash is detrimental, so the references say. But yes, these 2 products fueled the use of meta in the early stages of the "revelation".

 

[stpug]

K concentrations above 10ppm in the mash is detrimental, so the references say.

I'm interested in what kind of detriments to the mash that >10ppm K is said to have in your references. I ask because I put forth my first attempt at as many of the PDF steps as I could muster at short notice, however I only had KMeta for this attempt (a problem which has now been solved ).

As for my mash, it showed complete conversion with clear wort in the BK. I actually had increased efficiency from typical, but suspect it may be from a low potential I estimated for the homemade torrified wheat I used (likely), OR the additional 30 minutes I used for the mash (unlikely).

Flavor impacts from the K levels is where my concern lies now, but initial sampling from the beer (a british ale) at 48 hours into fermentation doesn't indicate anything abnormal. The sample was good at 48 hours postbrew, not that it means anything at that point .

Edit:
I think my levels of K would be ~11mg/l for the entire preboil brew water amount (1500mg K2S2O5 in 30 liters). If we however concentrate the K in the final volume then it increases a fair amount to ~17mg/l. Assuming I understand how the K would break out of the structure (which I probably don't) AND didn't totally screw the math (which I probably did).

 

[rabeb25]

Its in Narziss, maybe Band 2 or Abriss. We started off with Kmeta and I don't think we saw any negative effects, but the documentation said to stay away from it, so we did.

"The sample was good". Describe good?

 

[stpug]

Its in Narziss, maybe Band 2 or Abriss. We started off with Kmeta and I don't think we saw any negative effects, but the documentation said to stay away from it, so we did.

"The sample was good". Describe good?

Then there's still hope for this batch, even with the levels of K that it possibly contains. I wonder if there's potential for too quick of conversion, or some such thing??

As for "good", it was literally a spoonful from the fermenter at 48 hours postpitch when I had just finished top cropping yeast. I can't put ANY weight into it, but if I had to describe it, I would say that a light toasty character from the large torrified wheat and small pale chocolate addition was the most prominent malt character with some distinct (but not overwhelming) fruity British-yeast esters; it was quite dry; and firmly bitter too. I was actually very surprised but the beer tasted like it was at final gravity in that short amount of time; granted, I was experimenting with a different-for-me warm fermentation schedule that probably increased the activity quite a bit. But, again, I can't hold my breath for any of this description to hold through to the final beer because of when this sample was tasted (but I HOPE that toastiness I tasted holds through!).

 

[ajdelange]

I'm interested in what kind of detriments to the mash that >10ppm K is said to have in your references.

I asked in a previous post in this thread why adding > 10 mg/L K to a product that typically contains 500 - 1000 was a problem. I didn't get an answer.

 

[techbrau]

We originally started using kmeta and got the same great results we're seeing with nameta. I don't think it is a huge issue and am not certain why Narziss says what he says, but our logic was a bit Pascal-ish because nameta and kmeta are basically the same price and both widely available anyway.

I'm sure that as more people experiment with the LODO process it will become clearer what are the essential aspects, and what parts are more forgiving. The whole idea of the pdf was to give everyone a common baseline, as in "if you follow this procedure exactly we can guarantee that you will see the same results as us". That doesn't mean that the process shouldn't evolve over time.

 

[TexasWine]

I asked in a previous post in this thread why adding > 10 mg/L K to a product that typically contains 500 - 1000 was a problem. I didn't get an answer.

I've got a lot of Kmeta sitting around for making wine. It'd be nice if I could use it in my low DO experiment as well.

 

[stpug]

I asked in a previous post in this thread why adding > 10 mg/L K to a product that typically contains 500 - 1000 was a problem. I didn't get an answer.

I didn't know that about the amount of potassium in barley. That's very interesting, and everything I find online indicates your are 100% correct (no surprise there ).

That does make for an interesting point in regards to K- vs Na-metabite in this low oxygen brewing process, and which element might go more unnoticed in beer brewing. At the levels of Na and K found in beer (39ppm vs 278ppm, respectively), it would seem that K would go totally unnoticed at it's minor additional levels, as opposed to the Na which, granted, would still be fairly minor. But, it certainly makes more sense that an added 25ppm (for example) to 278 K is much less noticeable than 25ppm to 39 Na. This may make a case that Kmeta is the "better" choice of the two? Perhaps, this is too simplistic and there's something I'm overlooking.

I wonder why the Narziss reference would indicate that Kmeta is a detriment to the mash. I would assume he was well aware of the levels of K in malt already.

Hmm, not sure what to make of all of this besides maybe it's safe to say that either metabite powder should work equally as well? I don't know.

 

[stpug]

We originally started using kmeta and got the same great results we're seeing with nameta. I don't think it is a huge issue and am not certain why Narziss says what he says, but our logic was a bit Pascal-ish because nameta and kmeta are basically the same price and both widely available anyway.

I'm sure that as more people experiment with the LODO process it will become clearer what are the essential aspects, and what parts are more forgiving. The whole idea of the pdf was to give everyone a common baseline, as in "if you follow this procedure exactly we can guarantee that you will see the same results as us". That doesn't mean that the process shouldn't evolve over time.

You're absolutely right. The pdf seems to be an excellent jump-off point to try what you folks have been working so hard to accomplish, and gives the rest of us a nice set of steps that are easily followed. It will be interesting to see how the process evolves over time and to see what kind of creative solutions folks come up with to tackle various obstacles in the process - and to, hopefully, simplify some parts.

As for now, I'm thinking Kmeta might be just as, or more, useful than NaMeta. I happened to have Kmeta for my first brew, now I have NaMeta. I've also got Lactic and Phosphoric acids for brewing. I'm set for any kind of brewing

 

[rabeb25]

I didn't know that about the amount of potassium in barley. That's very interesting, and everything I find online indicates your are 100% correct (no surprise there ).

That does make for an interesting point in regards to K- vs Na-metabite in this low oxygen brewing process, and which element might go more unnoticed in beer brewing. At the levels of Na and K found in beer (39ppm vs 278ppm, respectively), it would seem that K would go totally unnoticed at it's minor additional levels, as opposed to the Na which, granted, would still be fairly minor. But, it certainly makes more sense that an added 25ppm (for example) to 278 K is much less noticeable than 25ppm to 39 Na. This may make a case that Kmeta is the "better" choice of the two? Perhaps, this is too simplistic and there's something I'm overlooking.

I wonder why the Narziss reference would indicate that Kmeta is a detriment to the mash. I would assume he was well aware of the levels of K in malt already.

Hmm, not sure what to make of all of this besides maybe it's safe to say that either metabite powder should work equally as well? I don't know.

Not Kmeta, Just K.

 

[rabeb25]

As for now, I'm thinking Kmeta might be just as, or more, useful than NaMeta. I happened to have Kmeta for my first brew, now I have NaMeta. I've also got Lactic and Phosphoric acids for brewing. I'm set for any kind of brewing

I did my fair share of "going against" what the references claimed, until everytime I kept coming back full circle to what they said to begin with.

 

[TexasWine]

Noodling in this whole low DO process and thought about a little tool I use in making wine. Essentially it's an air eductor that allows you to pull a vacuum using your air compressor. I use it to degas my wine before bottling. The vacuum end goes into a rubber stopper.

Any of you folks that have done the low DO thing see any use for it? For instance, could I leave the lid on during the boil and use this thing to remove the boiled off steam and volatile components? In theory, if I had a really good sealed system that could withstand some amount of vacuum, I could even reduce the boiling temp. I've pulled 22 mmHg on a glass carboy before (though i wouldn't recommend repeating my folly).

 

[Iseneye]

Techbrau - I had a look at your fermentation setup which was in answer to my question about using the receiving keg as an airlock - i.e. hook fermenting keg up to receiving keg during fermentation. Receiving keg will have spunding valve. Do you do the full 02 water purge on the receiving keg with this system or is there enough C02 from fermentation that you don't bother?

 

[techbrau]

I don't purge the receiving keg before hooking it up. With the fermentation CO2, racking fully fermented beer into the keg I can achieve under 0.4 ppm DO. However, when I rack with 1-2% extract left and do a traditional lagering cycle in the receiving keg, the finished beer has zero DO.

 

[Bilsch]

I've pulled 22 mmHg on a glass carboy before (though i wouldn't recommend repeating my folly).

Your a brave man.
I've imploded small flasks in the lab doing work under vacuum and it was some kind of disaster. Almost a bigger bang then over pressuring, so I can't imagine pulling a vacuum on a carboy without a blast shield.