Interesting German Brewing PDF

[Bilsch]

I've wondered if the rubber and glue would hold up to those temps. Where do you find all-metal disconnects?

Currently I rinse out the starsan twice with boiling water and the kegs have been taking that for years. I can't see this being a lot different.

Adventures in homebrewing. 91-7295 Stainless Steel Economy MFL Liquid Ball Lock Disconnect
or
CHI Company

 

[mabrungard]

Say.. aren't we trying to keep the astringent tannins out of our beer?

Tannic acid is quite astringent so I would think adding any would be counterproductive in smooth malty beers.

I used it in an American Wheat last weekend and I dosed the kettle with the maximum recommended dose of 4 g/HL which amounted to 0.8 g in my 5 gal batch. It was a very small amount.

In addition, the tannins react with several components in the wort and do not make it through to the finished product. In addition, this is specially-treated gallotannin that is apparently not like the tannin products added to cider or wine.

Astringency is not a likely problem for this product.

 

[wobdee]

I used it in an American Wheat last weekend and I dosed the kettle with the maximum recommended dose of 4 g/HL which amounted to 0.8 g in my 5 gal batch. It was a very small amount.

In addition, the tannins react with several components in the wort and do not make it through to the finished product. In addition, this is specially-treated gallotannin that is apparently not like the tannin products added to cider or wine.

Astringency is not a likely problem for this product.

Just the boil and not the mash? How did the break and wort look?

 

[mabrungard]

Yes, just the boil. There is a visible change in the wort immediately after the product is added. I'm not sure if its just because I added a couple of ounces of water to the wort via this tannin slurry, but it did foam for a second. I figured that since I use RO water, I didn't need to do anything in the mash. But I'll probably include that addition the next time I use it.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I used it in an American Wheat last weekend and I dosed the kettle with the maximum recommended dose of 4 g/HL which amounted to 0.8 g in my 5 gal batch. It was a very small amount.

In addition, the tannins react with several components in the wort and do not make it through to the finished product. In addition, this is specially-treated gallotannin that is apparently not like the tannin products added to cider or wine.

Astringency is not a likely problem for this product.

Martin, a couple questions:

1.If we use it at the beginning of the mash (in addition to the boil), whats the affect on mash pH. I noticed in the literature, Brewtan has a pH of 3.0-4.0. Are the amounts added negligible as far as affecting the mash pH or is this something we need to be factoring in?

2. Since tannins themselves act as natural fining agents, is irish moss, or any other agent, still needed?

Something I saw while reading up on it is that Brewtan-B is a Hydrolysable Tannin, or a Pyrogallol-Type Tannin. Pyrogallol absorbs oxygen from the air when in an alkaline solution. We aren't working with an alkaline solution but just thought that was interesting.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

After posting I found this relating to my second question:

Taming tannins
There are a number of possible solutions if you have extracted excessive tannins, all very effective. The extent of tannin “removal” depends largely on timing, i.e. trying to remove small vs. large molecules, and concentration.

Tannins have a strong affinity for proteins, and so, you can fine using a protein-containing fining agent such as egg whites, gelatin, or isinglass. Since gelatin comes in different formulations, i.e. low vs. high molecular weight, choose the one that best fits your needs based on the manufacturer’s recommendations, and avoid overfining. Gelatin formulations with different molecular weights show preferential affinity for tannin size.

PVPP, short for polyvinylpolypyrrolidone, is a highly insoluble, high-molecular weight synthetic polymer that is effective in absorbing and precipitating small tannins. And so, PVPP is recommended for early-drinking wine or where bitterness needs to be toned down.

Taken from:

https://winemakermag.com/1045-tannin-chemistry-techniques

 

[rabeb25]

PVPP is widely used in German breweries(who I *THINK* it was created for) since it is filtered out which makes it RHG compliant, however yeast can't be in suspension for it to work properly. I have used it myself but you need a better o2 regime to be adding anything post yeast. Narziss recommends an addition of no more than 6mg/l sulfites for filtering and bottling, and that's with their already tight regimes of LowDO cold side. I did not have success with adding anything after the spund phase, precious malt, bye bye.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I used it in an American Wheat last weekend and I dosed the kettle with the maximum recommended dose of 4 g/HL which amounted to 0.8 g in my 5 gal batch. It was a very small amount.

In addition, the tannins react with several components in the wort and do not make it through to the finished product. In addition, this is specially-treated gallotannin that is apparently not like the tannin products added to cider or wine.

Astringency is not a likely problem for this product.

For some reason I cant edit posts right now, which is why I have three replies....

Is the maximum recommended dose not 6 g/HL, and the range not 2-6 g/HL for both the mash (before malt addition) and boil (<5 min left in boil)?

 

[The_Bishop]

Yes, just the boil. There is a visible change in the wort immediately after the product is added. I'm not sure if its just because I added a couple of ounces of water to the wort via this tannin slurry, but it did foam for a second. I figured that since I use RO water, I didn't need to do anything in the mash. But I'll probably include that addition the next time I use it.

I've been reading up on this and I'm interested in trying it out. Can't find a stateside source for it, though. Where did you purchase it from?

Also, in a 'put my money where my mouth is' reference, I'm brewing a pale ale today. I'm in the process of boiling the brewing liquor, and I've got my SMB ready to go. Grains will be milled into my stainless mashing basket and slowly lowered into my brewing liquor to prevent as much O2 ingress as possible, mimicking bottom-filling the mash tun.

We'll see how it goes.

 

[techbrau]

Remember to give the SMB a good 5 minutes to mop up any remaining oxygen before doughing in, and try to keep your mash covered with as little airspace as possible. Don't forget to taste the wort post-mash it will be very different from what you're used to.

Also, remember to keep the boil low and short. 50-60 minutes tops, with 10% or less total evaporation (NO rolling boil! It should look like a simmer)

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Random, and possibly stupid, question.

Could Helium be used to remove oxygen in the initial water? It has a low solubility compared to say, Nitrogen. I know boiling and cooling is the cheaper option, but could He be used as a time saver?

 

[The_Bishop]

I followed the procedure according to the paper posted. I've also used this grain bill before, so I'm familiar with how it tasted 'the old way.' The only difference is I'm 'no sparging.' I.E. it's BIAB with the last 'b' standing for basket (400 micron SS basket). The lid is kept on the kettle for the entire mash while recirculating slowly, just enough to keep the mash moving but not enough to splash with the recirculation arm under the surface of the mash. No bubbles, no splashing.

Initial impressions on mash in: There was a noticeable reduction in mash 'foam' and the mash was less fragrant. Pulled a bit of wort at 10 minutes into the mash to check pH, got an actual 5.44 with an estimated 5.42 in Bru'N Water, which I consider close enough. Tasted the PH sample, even though it was only 10 minutes in. It seemed cleaner with a 'different' malt flavor, I'll wait until the end of the mash to see what it really looks/smells/tastes like. Full disclosure: My initial thoughts were, "Holy ****, these german brewing bas**** might be on to something."

 

[rabeb25]

You're welcome

 

[The_Bishop]

In the interest of my layman-non PHD-scientific method, I'll say thanks when it's done all the way to a frothy glass that I can sample.

Edit: My second part didn't show up so here it is:

But all indications are good right now.

 

[techbrau]

Remember that your cold side oxygen control has to be PERFECT to preserve the malt flavor you're tasting in the wort. This means spunding to carbonate in a purged keg with as little headspace as possible, and NO finings! I would advise against attempting to dry hop this batch, do NOT open the lid of the keg after its spunded!

It is possible to Lodo dry hop (rabeb25 has a method) but it's best to get the basic Lodo method down first.

 

[agrazela]

I haven't progressed to spunding as of yet and have just been purging with Co2 prior to transfer as well as a dose of 100mg/l SMB and my results have been pretty good as of late...

The dose of SMB you speak of here, is that the pre-mash dose already talked about in this thread, or are you talking about an addition at kegging time?

 

[rabeb25]

That's after. That's a crazy big dose though. Be advised that the references claim no more than 6mg/l. Anything above that you are on your own.

 

[giraffe]

This means spunding to carbonate in a purged keg with as little headspace as possible, and NO finings!

No finings? I missed that earlier, what is the reasoning there? Does that include kettle finings?

 

[rabeb25]

No finings? I missed that earlier, what is the reasoning there? Does that include kettle finings?

We have yet to find a method of adding finings(post ferm) that doesn't up the DO. I think I am odd man out in the group, but I do add whirfloc to the boil.

 

[TexasWine]

It is possible to Lodo dry hop (rabeb25 has a method) but it's best to get the basic Lodo method down first.

@rabeb25 I'd be interested to hear this method. Thinking I might do a Texas Brown next month and it calls for a dry hop. It would be a 10 gallon collaboration brew with a buddy. All the hot side stuff would be LODO. Then we'd split the batch and he would do his normal cold side process and I would continue with LODO. Might be an interesting experiment.

 

[GotPushrods]

@rabeb25 I'd be interested to hear this method. Thinking I might do a Texas Brown next month and it calls for a dry hop. It would be a 10 gallon collaboration brew with a buddy. All the hot side stuff would be LODO. Then we'd split the batch and he would do his normal cold side process and I would continue with LODO. Might be an interesting experiment.

I use Nd magnets to hold my hop bag up when dry-hopping to keep it out of the way when CO2 racking to keg. After racking it's left hanging from the top of the carboy. I suppose you could actually suspend the bag at the beginning of fermentation, then as primary winds down, remove the outside magnet dropping the bag into the beer.

 

[The_Bishop]

Remember that your cold side oxygen control has to be PERFECT to preserve the malt flavor you're tasting in the wort. This means spunding to carbonate in a purged keg with as little headspace as possible, and NO finings! I would advise against attempting to dry hop this batch, do NOT open the lid of the keg after its spunded!

It is possible to Lodo dry hop (rabeb25 has a method) but it's best to get the basic Lodo method down first.

My O2 control cold side is pretty damn good. I fill my kegs completely with sanitizer, then push it out with CO2. My transfers are done closed, with CO2 to push from fermenter to keg.

What's rabeb's low oxygen dry hop method? Did a search and came up dry. The whole point of this brew is to utilize my home-grown hops.

 

[wobdee]

The dose of SMB you speak of here, is that the pre-mash dose already talked about in this thread, or are you talking about an addition at kegging time?

Oops, I ment 10mg/l at kegging, sorry. The 100mg/l is for the mash

 

[techbrau]

My O2 control cold side is pretty damn good. I fill my kegs completely with sanitizer, then push it out with CO2. My transfers are done closed, with CO2 to push from fermenter to keg.

What's rabeb's low oxygen dry hop method? Did a search and came up dry. The whole point of this brew is to utilize my home-grown hops.

I hate to burst your bubble, but that's not good enough. We tried the same and our DO meters told us that we picked up between 0.4 and 0.8 ppm DO this way.

Your sanitizer is saturated with dissolved oxygen that immediately starts coming out of solution when you start pushing it out with co2 (the partial pressure of oxygen is zero in the headspace when filled with co2, which pulls oxygen out of the sanitizer). There's also oxygen trapped in your transfer lines, and small pockets of air can still exist in your keg.

I know it sounds crazy, but DO meters (and fading malt and hop flavors) don't lie. Spunding is the only way that we have been able to hold on to the ultra fresh flavor for more than a few weeks. It's a shame to put in all of that effort brewing a Lodo beer only to have it die in the keg.

 

[The_Bishop]

Then what you're telling me is this process is completely impractical for most any homebrewing/homebrewer. I'm all for doing what I can to limit DO, but forgoing fining, dry hopping and having kegs full of yeast is not acceptable to me. I'll see how this current exercise works out with my cold side process being unaltered.

There was an improvement in the wort pre-boil. I'll grant you that. But if the whole process hinges on less than 1 ppm of DO, I guess I'll just have to live with what I can get out of my own process.

 

[techbrau]

Then what you're telling me is this process is completely impractical for most any homebrewing/homebrewer. I'm all for doing what I can to limit DO, but forgoing fining, dry hopping and having kegs full of yeast is not acceptable to me. I'll see how this current exercise works out with my cold side process being unaltered.

There was an improvement in the wort pre-boil. I'll grant you that. But if the whole process hinges on less than 1 ppm of DO, I guess I'll just have to live with what I can get out of my own process.

I told you it was advanced brewing

It's not as difficult as you're making it out to be. You're already off to a great start. MoreBeer sells spunding valves for $20. All you have to do is rack to the keg when you are about 6 gravity points above your expected final gravity, making sure to fill the keg as far up to the top as you can.

Dry hopping is still possible to do. You do it in the primary after peak fermentation is finished, before you've racked to the keg to spund.

A couple weeks of cold storage will drop the yeast out as good as gelatin.

It doesn't hinge on less than 1 ppm DO, it hinges on 0.1 ppm DO but trust me, you can do it!

 

[mabrungard]

Where did you purchase it from?

A sample from the manufacturer provided at the Craft Brewers Conference.

 

[The_Bishop]

A sample from the manufacturer provided at the Craft Brewers Conference.

Ok, thanks. I'll keep trying to find a source.

I told you it was advanced brewing

It's not as difficult as you're making it out to be. You're already off to a great start. MoreBeer sells spunding valves for $20. All you have to do is rack to the keg when you are about 6 gravity points above your expected final gravity, making sure to fill the keg as far up to the top as you can.

Dry hopping is still possible to do. You do it in the primary after peak fermentation is finished, before you've racked to the keg to spund.

A couple weeks of cold storage will drop the yeast out as good as gelatin.

It doesn't hinge on less than 1 ppm DO, it hinges on 0.1 ppm DO but trust me, you can do it!

I'll ignore the advanced brewing jab because there are a whole mountain of breweries that don't do what you're talking about and they make damn good beer.

Spending a few bucks on SMB was no big deal, as I ferment wine as well and it'll get used one way or the other. A couple of pennies in electricity for the additional boil and a few gallons of water for chilling back down to strike temps is no big deal, either.

I'm not making any further equipment investments for a process I'm not sure is going to make a difference in the final product. I'm not buying a spunding valve. I'm not going to finish the ferment in the keg and have a bunch of yeast in the bottom of it.

Dry hopping while the yeast is still in suspension doesn't work well. A lot of the hop oils get dragged down and out of suspension when the yeast drops.

I don't see a need to sit on a keg of a hop-forward beer for a few weeks, when I can crash the yeast out and hit it with finings to produce crystal clear beer within a week of the ferment being finished.

I've carried this experiment as far as I'm willing to, within the limits of the brewing equipment I have and without major alterations to my process.

 

[techbrau]

Here's what I recommend then. Remove the DO from the sanitizer that you fill your keg with to purge. You can preboil it and fill the keg with boiling water (you may not need sanitizer in this case) or use 50 mg/l SMB to scavenge the oxygen.

If you fine with gelatin, dose the water you use to dissolve the gelatin with 25-50 mg/l SMB (a tiny pinch)

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

Your sanitizer is saturated with dissolved oxygen that immediately starts coming out of solution when you start pushing it out with co2 (the partial pressure of oxygen is zero in the headspace when filled with co2, which pulls oxygen out of the sanitizer). There's also oxygen trapped in your transfer lines, and small pockets of air can still exist in your keg.

I've been trying to eliminate oxidation on the cold side - mostly focusing on kegging. On this front, why can't one dose the sanitizing solution with SMB prior to pushing it out of the keg? I'm pretty maniacal during purging - fill with sanitizer (dosed with Campden), invert keg, carefully tip keg upright to get remaining bubbles up to gas post, pull gas dip tube, fill air pocket with water through gas post, invert and repeat until no more bubbles are there to eliminate (usually one more time), install gas dip tube, and purge.

And hoses are also easy to purge - just run some CO2 through them.

Then I push my beer from my conical to the keg under CO2.

I'm interested in seeing what can be gained on the hot side, but this isn't sounding like a little bit beyond what one would typically do. It's sounding like a lot of work. But I still may try it on my hoppy beers - O2 absolutely destroys IPAs.

 

[catsnbeer]

I've carried this experiment as far as I'm willing to, within the limits of the brewing equipment I have and without major alterations to my process.

Seems totally reasonable to me, I am sure the lodo folks will tell you that everything else you did was a waste but I will be very curious to hear how your beer turns out.

Even if you didn't do everything just the way that was laid out in the document doesn't mean that your results aren't totally valid. Look forward to hearing more!

Also, If you did want to try racking with a spunding valve - it seems like if you rack your beer off the cold break then there will be very little trub to worry about in the bottom of the keg - just yeast that would blow out in a few pints (that's been my experience anyway).

As far as dry hopping goes, is there any DO data available for dry hopping? Hops contain antioxidants which might reduce the DO?? Just curious...

 

[The_Bishop]

Here's what I recommend then. Remove the DO from the sanitizer that you fill your keg with to purge. You can preboil it and fill the keg with boiling water (you may not need sanitizer in this case) or use 50 mg/l SMB to scavenge the oxygen.

If you fine with gelatin, dose the water you use to dissolve the gelatin with 25-50 mg/l SMB (a tiny pinch)

Dosing with SMB seems more reasonable. I have the means to measure very small doses, so that's not an issue.

 

[starsman20]

Well I don't know if that paper's full of malarkey or what...pretty sure 19th century German brewers weren't doing any of that.

But I do know that ANYTHING would taste better if being served by:

Mugs and Jugs!!

 

[wobdee]

Here's what I recommend then. Remove the DO from the sanitizer that you fill your keg with to purge. You can preboil it and fill the keg with boiling water (you may not need sanitizer in this case) or use 50 mg/l SMB to scavenge the oxygen.

If you fine with gelatin, dose the water you use to dissolve the gelatin with 25-50 mg/l SMB (a tiny pinch)

I thought we were doing 6-10 mg/l SMB for keg? I thought higher doses were causing off flavors?

 

[Eddievxx]

I don't have any kegs; I bottle all my beer but perhaps in an unusual way: I bottle my Lagers straight from the primary fermentor (with priming sugar), carbonate at about 20C for a couple of weeks, then lager the bottles for however long the style dictates.

With that in mind, is there any particular issues I need to be aware of when bottling with LODO in mind? Will the presence of yeast (active enough to carbonate the bottles) effectively scrub the oxygen picked up in the transfer and in the bottle headspace?

Also, I only brew BIAB. Anybody got thoughts on the extra areas of concern for BIAB regarding to LODO?

Cheers!

 

[techbrau]

I thought we were doing 6-10 mg/l SMB for keg? I thought higher doses were causing off flavors?

This is not to be added to the kegged beer. It is merely for removing oxygen from sanitizer that is then pushed out with CO2 to purge the keg before filling

 

[Iseneye]

Hmmm...very interesting. I've read this thread, the german brewers thread, and the PDF. I am keen to give it a go and can probably do most of it except I have a copper wort chiller. Stainless steel ones are not available online in New Zealand at the moment. The PDF says that copper is a no go - I assume there is no way around that?

I thought I had brewing covered with water chemistry, recipes, fermenting in kegs allowing low oxygen transfers. This is some advanced stuff.

 

[techbrau]

Copper IC is less than ideal but better than a copper mash tun or boil kettle. It probably won't ruin the beer but stainless is safer.

 

[Iseneye]

Thanks - I'll see how it goes. One other question (thanks for the quick reply). I ferment in corny kegs and transfer to second keg via CO2. I am in the process of ordering a spunding valve. Would it make sense to hook up my fermenting keg to the keg with a spunding valve say half way through fermentation? That way the CO2 from fermentation is reducing / removing the O2 from the spunding keg. This would be in addition to purging the spunding keg prior to connection.

Hopefully that makes sense. I still have great memories of having Augustiner Lagerbier Helles in Munich in 2014. I would love to get closer to that. I have a Helles on tap at the moment that is the best I have made. It is exciting that it could potentially be even better.

 

[techbrau]

Thanks - I'll see how it goes. One other question (thanks for the quick reply). I ferment in corny kegs and transfer to second keg via CO2. I am in the process of ordering a spunding valve. Would it make sense to hook up my fermenting keg to the keg with a spunding valve say half way through fermentation? That way the CO2 from fermentation is reducing / removing the O2 from the spunding keg. This would be in addition to purging the spunding keg prior to connection.

Hopefully that makes sense. I still have great memories of having Augustiner Lagerbier Helles in Munich in 2014. I would love to get closer to that. I have a Helles on tap at the moment that is the best I have made. It is exciting that it could potentially be even better.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=321