Indeed this is a distinct possibility. It's precisely why our thoughts got published: to get feedback of this sort.
Many thanks! It's certainly food for thought. I'm sure there will be plenty of refinements over time.
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Indeed this is a distinct possibility. It's precisely why our thoughts got published: to get feedback of this sort.
Many thanks! It's certainly food for thought. I'm sure there will be plenty of refinements over time.
Either will work equally well. Mr Narziss mentioned potassium levels in the context of water preparation for brewing, where he stated that levels higher than 10 mg/l are undesirable.
Verifying this goes way over my level of competence, so we took it for face value (not a terrible assumption, considering the source) and switched from K to Na metabisulfate.
It may not be sticky necessary it or noticeable. I honestly don't know. But it seemed prudent and no trouble to switch to Na MBS instead.
Yeah, I won't be testing my luck again. Looking back it was pretty stupid and I'm very fortunate I didn't get hurt. I've since switched to a gentler form of degassing, using my vacuvine wine stopper instead to hold a lower level of vacuum over the course of a few days/weeks.
I'm heading down the rabbit hole and thinking of getting a DO meter. The one that the german brewing guys use is the Exstik II which I can get over here at a hefty price. I've looked at the spec sheets and it says a resolution of 0.01ppm but an accuracy of 0.4ppm. They don't specify whether the 0.4 is 95% CI or one sigma or anything about it. If I have read the specs right then isn't this meter too inaccurate for measuring DO where you are trying to determine <0.2ppm?
I understand where you're coming from, believe me. But keep in mind that all those hops you put in your hop-forward beers stay perfectly fresh for a year or more in their nitrogen packed (and oxygen free) bags. Why don't your IPAs keep fresh for a year or more? Consider the possibility that poor oxygen control is the biggest reason why so many hop-forward beers have such a short shelf life.
We've had Lodo pale ales that were dry hopped at the end of primary and then spunded to carbonate experience no noticeable loss in hop aroma/flavor over 2-3+ months in the keg.
Only the manufacturer can tell you what he means by 0.4 mg/L accuracy. When it comes to pH electrodes I have figured that since an electrode is perfectly accurate when you calibrate it (just as a clock is absolutely correct right after you set it) accuracy must refer to the rms error relative to the buffer pH in a set of readings over a period of time. IOW it is a measure of electrode drift. The only manufacturer of a pH meter that I have ever seen to actually state what he means by accuracy is Hach WRT the Pro pH+ and they confirm what I suspect. I note with interest that later editions of their instruction 'manual' are more vague on this than the earlier editions.
In any case as drift is gradual over time the error is going to be more like a bias error than a random error so that the obvious "Well, just take 100 measurements" isn't going to get 400 ppb rms error down to 40.
There are additional considerations here as well. With both Clark and LDO electrodes you should have 0 current when PaO2 is 0 but in both cases there is 'dark' current and so, while, for example, my LDO meter doesn't do a cal at 0, the meter does read 125 ppb (its accuracy spec is 100 ppb) but the sensor cap is years overdue for replacement) in a 0 oxygen solution. This is obviously a systematic error as it is very stable over time so I suppose I could back it out but I'd need to do quite a bit of checking to be sure I was correctly reading at the 40 ppb level with an electrode spec'ed at 100 ppb.
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
Since I read this, I've done 3 batches with as "low oxygen" as possible, incl. mash caps, preboil, NaMeta, etc. The first batch is almost ready now.
The questions I have are:
1. BIAB no sparge seems PERFECT for this if you 1) drain the bag low-to-kettle level/no splashing while it drains, and 2) don't squeeze (I don't anyway).
2. How do you do this approach with ales, IPA dry hops, secondaries etc.?
3. THIS IS THE BIG ONE! Is lowering the HSA/Hot Side Oxidation dramatically going to create a better product even if I can't get under the mythical PPM's/PPB's you're talking about?
4. I tried a couple Ayinger beers, and while they were good, they weren't substantially better than other beers on the same import shelf.
Am I missing anything?...
The questions I have are:
1. BIAB no sparge seems PERFECT for this if you 1) drain the bag low-to-kettle level/no splashing while it drains, and 2) don't squeeze (I don't anyway).
2. How do you do this approach with ales, IPA dry hops, secondaries etc.?
3. THIS IS THE BIG ONE! Is lowering the HSA/Hot Side Oxidation dramatically going to create a better product even if I can't get under the mythical PPM's/PPB's you're talking about?
4. I tried a couple Ayinger beers, and while they were good, they weren't substantially better than other beers on the same import shelf.
Am I missing anything?...
Just did my first low DO yesterday. Boy, what a long day!
1. That's exactly what I did.
2. Dry hop towards the end of primary before transferring to the spunding keg. I had hoped to use two magnets to keep the dry hops pinned to the roof of the fermenter and then just pull the outside one off to drop the hops (and inside magnet) in. But, I don't think I have enough head space to pull that off.
3. Dunno.
4. I tried a Pilsner Urquell for the first time two days ago. I concluded that while it was definitely good, it wasn't OH MY GOSH I CAN'T BELIEVE MY TASTE BUDS. Not entirely sure if this was a good beer to try to find "it".
Hope this helps some.
What are you doing for a mash cap? I haven't found a very good solution yet. "Floated" a small stainless lid on it yesterday, but had to keep it supported with my ratchet pulley. I want to find a solution that doesn't involve penetrating the cap to return the wort.
Lastly, it appears not every low DO brewer uses a mash cap.
http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?p=3604#p3604
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
I used my kettle as the mash tun, and when I do no sparge it is completely full and the inset lid makes a perfect mash cap.
Can i just natural carb in the keg with the remaining few gravity points, without a spunding valve?
Won't I have a humongous amount of yeast and trub if i rack while it's still fermenting?
Can i just natural carb in the keg with the remaining few gravity points, without a spunding valve?
Won't I have a humongous amount of yeast and trub if i rack while it's still fermenting?
brewmeister13
Well-Known Member
Yet another question to pile on the rest. Is anyone else concerned with using NaMeta in their brewing liquor and then pitching yeast the same day? Definitely not a microbiologist or even a scientist, but doesn't NaMeta inhibit yeast growth and even cause cell death?
You really need to do some proper sensory difference testing before you claim that any of these techniques (or reduction of oxygen on the hotside) makes a significant difference in the finished beer.
Nope. Yeasts appear to be happy as clams, fermenting away at 50F. No lag in getting started either.
It's also used in the crush during wine making to inhibit indigenous yeasts, mold, bacteria. Wine makers don't have a problem using it pre fermentation either.
orangehero
Well-Known Member
What American beers have IT? Does Budweiser or any other products made on an InBev owned ****************? Surely they use the most sophisticated low oxygen techniques?
Interesting point about the accuracy and precision of the Extech DO meter. If that's what all of these guys are using, then although the meter will show some value to the hundredth decimal place, the most they can truthfully say is that their wort/beer is probably less than 1 ppm.
Interesting point about the accuracy and precision of the Extech DO meter. If that's what all of these guys are using, then although the meter will show some value to the hundredth decimal place, the most they can truthfully say is that their wort/beer is probably less than 1 ppm.
wobdee
Junior Member
Too much rice in Bud but if you can find Michelob Original give it a try.
An important factor is that these metabisulfite salts are broken down by heat during the boil and that don't typically survive into the fermentation chamber.
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
Thank you for your work on this method. I don't have Kunze's book so I appreciate you sharing the oxidation reaction rate at mashing temp. Did he publish a rate at cellar temps? Can I oxygenate after pitching yeast as normal (3 Lpm pure O2 for a 12 gallon batch) without risking losing "fresh malt flavors"? You published that yeast take-up oxygen at 2-3 ppm/hr which would be an insanely slow flow rate for 12 gallons, even for air, like 6 mLpm assuming 100% efficiency. Have you done any sensory analysis on blasting O2 into pitched wort (2 minutes) vs. slow oxygenation (3 hours)?
Nate
The_Bishop
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So, I'm sitting here and sipping on the first pint of the pale ale I made using this LODO technique. The malt character might be a little better than I remember it, but that may also be confirmation bias. It's not 'eye-poppingly' different.
I'm thinking that this process is unnecessary for 90% of the beers brewed. It may be the hot ticket for a helles. Keeping DO as low as possible is also desirable from a stability standpoint.
I'm thinking that this process is unnecessary for 90% of the beers brewed. It may be the hot ticket for a helles. Keeping DO as low as possible is also desirable from a stability standpoint.
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rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
If I am not mistaken you didn't spund it, you fined it, and you dry hopped it.. correct? If so, your post needs a disclaimer, since you didn't follow our method. In our findings if you did not spund and you fined, and/or you dryhopped your malt flavor is mostly gone already, and the rest will be gone probably within the next week or so.
I learned that first hand.
They can claim what they want. Do the Brulosopher articles require the participants to do sensory perceptions? There have been enough posters on the german forum who said it makes a difference that I am going to try it myself. If I dont notice a difference then my only loss is making a mash cap but will still have a batch of beer at the end of it.
My comment was directed towards the author who as a scientist should know that significance is a statistical measure and an important step to address the validity of his claims. Science doesn't work by saying "a bunch of people on a forum agree", sorry but that just doesn't cut it.
Here is some material to review if you are not familiar with significance testing: http://www.stat.yale.edu/Courses/1997-98/101/sigtest.htm
FWIW Brulosopher does test for statistical significance although he is not claiming that his research is definitive.
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
This is exactly how I felt. Tinkering with the brew process is like 80% of what I like about brewing.
Anyone tried the cheap spunding valves with no gauge?
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
I brewed two batches LoDO nearly two weeks ago (a Belgian pale ale and and a Pilsner) - they are both in kegs now. Instead of spunding valves, I just check the keg pressure twice a day (by attaching my CO2 cylinder and reg to the keg) and vent most of the CO2 if the pressure is over 12psi. It seems to be working.
As for yeast/trub, I'm assuming it will be the same as what's normally left in a secondary - about 0.5 to 1L in my beers. I've made up more than that but shortening my gas tubes.
How many days in did you transfer to the kegs? Been a busy week and I haven't had a chance to prep the keg I'll be spunding in.
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rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
For the ale you will need a pressure of around 30psi if at room temp in that keg.
Yes, I know. But I'm trying to get an idea of when I should expect to transfer. Checked gravity this morn and it's down to 1.033, so still a ways to go.
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rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
For me and my pitch rates, that would be day 5 of lager fermentation at 45F. But I don't know what your pitch rates are. What is your gravity drop per day? That should tell you when it will be time.
Even then, that something is statistically significant i.e., a greater than chance number of tasters were able to distinguish between the two test beers, doesn't give us a definitive answer as to taste.
There's at least one brulosophy exbeeriment where it gained statistical significance but the tasters who were able to discriminate between the two batches were fairly split in terms of which beer they liked better.
The conclusion to that must be that yes, the beers are different--but which one you'd like probably depends on your palate. Ergo, tastings, while certainly important, are not the be-all and end-all--unless virtually everyone tasting agrees that one is better than another, or that everyone agrees that one beer exhibits more of a specific characteristic (maltiness?) than the other.
Martin. I have a supporter version of Bru'n Water. If I decide to try the LoDO method (preboil and add NA-Meta or K-Meta,) how do I modify the variables in your spreadsheet to/for my base water analysis to accommodate the change in chemistry due to boiling? I noticed a significant change in the profile when it's boiled (e.g. profile of Edinburgh v. Edinburgh Boiled.) Would boiling my base water also not change the chemistry of that water? Thanks, Ed
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
Thanks. Interestingly, the Belgian ale (WLP530) is carbonating more slowly at 21C than the pilsner is (WLP833) at 3C. The ale has only reached 10PSI after about a week, the lager has needed frequent venting to maintain 12PSI. Both were transferred to keg at 1.015, with fast ferments finishing at 1.006 (ale) and 1.008 (lager). Both taste awesome (except for the sulphur on the lager, which should clear up with time).
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
Firstly I want to say that I really enjoy reading Brulosopher's stuff, and really like what he does for brewing. It has really helped me question and change some of my brewing practices. That aside.....
If you truly understand statistical significance, you'll know that all he's ever really testing for is a significant difference between two batches of beer. Unless there are multiple (at least three) batches of EACH beer of the two varieties being compared (i.e. at least six batches of beer in total), you can't say if the difference between them is attributable to the variable being changed or to random chance. It would actually be quite a big task to set up a rigorous test to compare LoDO to traditional brewing (in a way that would stand up to peer-review). Much easier to just try it (or try one somebody else brewed) and see what you think.
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rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
You will rethink that after you realize all the "exbeeriments" are tainted by oxidized beer...
Right we would need phd's and undergrads to setup the proper testing and all the paperwork needed. That's a lot of work to do to try and convince a bunch of people on the internet. At the end of the day, you either try it or you don't, but it doesn't change the fact that I enjoy glorious mug after mug of beautiful un-oxidized beer at my house.
This is made from the recipe in the paper, and its nothing short of mind blowing. (No orange oxidation tint in this beer)
dsniegocki
Well-Known Member
I think that this has somewhat been answered earlier in the thread (and I think I can guess the answer), but just to clarify: is the LoDO method something that SIGNIFICANTLY affects ANY beer that is brewed to the same degree? Or is this a method that pertains mostly to recreating German styles?
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rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
Everybeer I have brewed since December 2015, has been brewed LODO (~50 batches), From pale ales, to wheat beers( American and German), cream ales, light adjunct lagers, helles, pils, dunkel, etc. All nothing short of amazing, when you strictly follow the guidelines in the paper.
If the tap water has high temporary hardness, pre-boiling could alter the hardness and alkalinity. However if you are just boiling for a minute to reduce DO, I'm not sure that you will affect the ionic content that much.
dsniegocki
Well-Known Member
Another silly question... although I generally do not brew with extract, I am curious if an adaptation of these processes could apply to extract brewing? Is anyone aware of whether extract manufacturers generally employ oxidation-preventative measures in their production of extract?
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rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
Something as fragile as this flavor, I would doubt is still around after those processes.
dsniegocki
Well-Known Member
We appreciate you sharing your experiences, and I am looking forward to trying the mini-mash experiment. In your opinion, what is a good example of a readily-available commercial product that I could try as a way of understanding the flavor you are describing?
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rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
Anything you can get here from Germany thats not been abused, shoot for it in a can.. Bitburger, Konig, etc. Jarhundert is my personal favorite, but its usually abused( and in bottle only).
Not to be disrespectful, but I don't think you really understand what you are talking about. A difference test will allow you to determine if two beers are different. In this case you would brew 2 beers on the same setup with the same ingredients, same fermentation temperatures, etc. One would be brewed with the techniques described here, the other would be brewed without worrying about HSA. A difference test (either a duo-trio or a triangle test) would allow you to determine if a group could tell the difference between the two beers.
This would at least attempt to evaluate your claims that these techniques matter.
Not sure why you are talking about multiple tests needing to be run, unless you want to start running ANOVA tests.
