How long 'till you were happy with BIAB?

[eadavis80]

Started brewing in January of 2014. 35 or so extract kits under my belt and about a month or so ago, I went to BIAB. First one (Dead Ringer kit from NB) was sampled yesterday. People said it was good - in fact, out of our 4 blind taste testers, 3 people preferred my beer over my bro-in-law's Williams Brewing extract triple hopped ale and my nephew's extract Dead Ringer. I actually preferred their two to mine. I have another BIAB batch that's dry hopping now (see Kitchen Sink Ale thread if you want) which I will have to decide on Tuesday whether or not I want to dump it. It's horrid. Third batch was the Dead Ringer BIAB kit again - my efficiency improved and while the taste is decent, still not great. However, it was only in primary for 10 days before racking and has yet to dry hop, so a lot can change. I also have a 3-gallon Oktoberfest in primary now.

How long 'till you guys were happy with your BIAB batches? I feel my extracts were all getting to be pretty darn good and while I am guessing there is a learning curve here, I feel a little frustrated going "a step back" in quality from extract to BIAB. I am hoping the BIAB has a higher ceiling, but depending on how these 2 turn out, I might just revert back to extract. I ENJOY THE PROCESS of BIAB a lot, but, so far at least, I've enjoyed the RESULT more for extract.

 

[antony]

I brewed with extract for just a little over a year before I jumped to biab. I felt my extract brews were decent but often had that 'extract twang' that I didn't appreciate and they were all generally on the thin side. All grain brewing allows for many more styles and variations in the final product than extract does.

What's your process? It would seem to me that you just have to dial in to your equipment and take a look at your processes. I've done biab for over a year now and I don't think I'll ever go back to extract. Post the recipe of the beer (and the process) of the beer you're not happy with and I bet someone could offer some advice to improve on.

Best of luck, don't give up on the bag just yet.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

It sort of depends. It took me awhile but as soon as I saw the cost savings and I got better at brewing, maybe 5-6 batches in, I loved it.

I think the key is getting the process down and used to it, it took 20ish batches for me to get confident with the process and I know exactly what to expect each time. That's the hard part about switching away f rom extract, extract on the numbers side you will almost always get the same numbers. BIAB your numbers will change a bit till you get used to it, also you have to manipulate a lot more variables like mash temp.

Buy bulk grain and hops and watch your per bottle price plummet and you'll remember why you wanted to switch. Not that you shouldn't switch back to extract.

 

[Rhaop]

The one thing that came to me when i first started BiaB is that my lighter beers really sucked, from much research i found that with doing full volume mashes (which BiaB should be imo) that my mash ph was not being lowered to proper levels which was causing tannin extraction along with other possible off flavors during the ferment, my beers did not improve until I obtained a water test report, started adding small amounts of minerals, adding partial campden tablets to neutralize any chloramines, along with using ezwater spreadsheet to determine said amounts of minerals along with additional acid malt to further lower mash ph to proper levels

Now that was with my pale and very light beers, darker beers tend to have more acidity in the specialty roast malts to drop ph on its own but thats the beauty of the ezwater calculator, you plug in your grain bill and water test results and it helps you determine what you need

Last 6-8 batches have greatly improved for me, I definitely have to credit Aj, Martin, Kasier and many others for their comments/research etc that i read online

Edit: FWIW i had done 15 batches or so with a traditional 3 vessel system and lower grain/water ratios for mashing and i had turned out some pretty good beers, needless to say when i had recently moved and wanted to condense the brew day equipment to BiaB i was disappointed at the results for the first ten batches or so mainly the lighter beers turned out crummy with an astringent aftertaste and a undesirable dry finish on all my beers

 

[Kiichi]

I just bottled my first two BIAB brews. If the gravity samples I took then are any indication they might be my best brews yet. Next weekend should bring the full answer.

Thing is that I spend 2 years with extract before and learned a lot of the details. Over the last year (maybe a bit more) I slowly added more and more things like specialty grains and partial mash techniques. A lot of reading up on hopstands and the like was also done. Over the last few months I also added water chemistry to my reportoir. All of that has probably helped a lot in making the switch smooth for me. Especially the water chemistry was important I recon, getting the mash PH right and adding the right amount of minerals. Makes a huge difference in the product.

I so far do not regret it cause the celing is much higher with BIAB that´s for sure. All the grains, the water chemistry, the great extraction of hop oils at full size, etc...

 

[eadavis80]

Thanks for the tips and encouragement. I don't know if I'll have the patience to wait for 10 or so batches. If I'm not pleased with the next few, I might head back, but we'll see.

I did buy some PH stabilizer for my most recent BIAB so maybe that will help. RHaop - it sounds like my beers are going through the same thing some of yours were with aftertaste and astringency. Didn't get that with the extract, but I know BIAB is different.

Practice makes perfect. I do feel that I have learned something with each batch, so even if the beer itself is sub-par (in these early stages) they are still valuable learning experiences. That being said, I'm glad I have a lot of quality extract brews to tide me over for now...

 

[singybrue]

Don't bother with the PH stabilizer-it's snake oil. Search this site for the deets.
Water and manipulation is more important in any all grain brewing, but especially full volume mashing like BIAB.
Are you using tap water or bottled water?

 

[Rhaop]

Thanks for the tips and encouragement. I don't know if I'll have the patience to wait for 10 or so batches. If I'm not pleased with the next few, I might head back, but we'll see.

I did buy some PH stabilizer for my most recent BIAB so maybe that will help. RHaop - it sounds like my beers are going through the same thing some of yours were with aftertaste and astringency. Didn't get that with the extract, but I know BIAB is different.

Practice makes perfect. I do feel that I have learned something with each batch, so even if the beer itself is sub-par (in these early stages) they are still valuable learning experiences. That being said, I'm glad I have a lot of quality extract brews to tide me over for now...

From that craigtube interview with john palmer i watched recently he recommended brewing an American Brown ale because the grain bills and flavors generally can compensate for below average water and the like so maybe plan one of those for a brew before you give up on BiaB

 

[McKnuckle]

The comparison here is not between extract and BIAB. It's between extract and all-grain. The AG process is far more dependent on water chemistry, which some get lucky about and never delve in... While others have poor water and either never grasp it - along with disappointment in the product - or eventually learn how to handle it.

It took me 10 batches to evaluate, detect, diagnose, and treat my water issues. I'm upwards of 40 now, brewing great beer reliably. Usually it's BIAB, but that's incidental. Any AG process would work for me now.

 

[Rhaop]

The comparison here is not between extract and BIAB. It's between extract and all-grain. The AG process is far more dependent on water chemistry, which some get lucky about and never delve in... While others have poor water and either never grasp it - along with disappointment in the product - or eventually learn how to handle it.

It took me 10 batches to evaluate, detect, diagnose, and treat my water issues. I'm upwards of 40 now, brewing great beer reliably. Usually it's BIAB, but that's incidental. Any AG process would work for me now.

True, and i guess the point i was trying to make was i think with traditional 3 vessel AG mashing your generally in the 1.5-2 qt/lb ratio so say at 10lb grain bill your at 4 gallons of water, when i started BiaB i went to mashing 8gallons of water and with tried and true recipes i had made before were turning out terrible, so with 3 vessel and batch sparging you may never notice any water issues

 

[monkeyman1000]

I only did a couple of extract batches and then started in with BIAB about 2.5 years ago. That first year was hit or miss, mostly average beers and one dumper bc I didn't watch mash temps close enough. I was using whatever tap water there was in the places I was living ( I move every 3-6 months for work ). I finally got a pH meter and started using RO water with mineral additions. I use Brun Water and Brewer's Friend to calculate the additions. My beers immediately improved and have just gotten better. That said, there is nothing wrong with brewing extract. My buddy that got me into brewing has been doing extract brewing for about 6 years now and has no plans to change. He has 3 kids and not a lot of free time. His beers are excellent. I do all grain bc I like the process and I don't have kids. AJ, Martin and others on the Brew Science page were incredibly helpful as well.

 

[wilserbrewer]

What I have been doing lately is to mash in BIAB style with only about 60% total water, mash and then add in approx 30% water to raise to mash out temp, hoist bag and then pour over sparge the last 10% to fine tune preboil volume. The added bonus of this method is it is a little quicker overall, as you are mashing sooner not having to heat full volume to strike temp.

Works nice

 

[Troutchaser]

I started out with BIAB so I have nothing else to compare it with and I'm sure the mistakes I made where because I was new but it took me about 4-5 batches before I thought they where any good. I'm only on my 10th batch so still a newbie but the beer is much better now!

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the tips and encouragement. I don't know if I'll have the patience to wait for 10 or so batches. If I'm not pleased with the next few, I might head back, but we'll see.

I did buy some PH stabilizer for my most recent BIAB so maybe that will help. RHaop - it sounds like my beers are going through the same thing some of yours were with aftertaste and astringency. Didn't get that with the extract, but I know BIAB is different.

Practice makes perfect. I do feel that I have learned something with each batch, so even if the beer itself is sub-par (in these early stages) they are still valuable learning experiences. That being said, I'm glad I have a lot of quality extract brews to tide me over for now...

Throw out the "pH stabilizer", as it might make matters worse.

I'd suggest trying something else. Buy RO water (reverse osmosis) water from those big "water machines" at the grocery store. Use that, along with some calcium chloride and gypsum (gypsum for IPAs). If that fixes your problem (and I really believe it will), you know it's due to your tap water.

If you're not doing anything at all about your tap water, and you don't have super-soft RO quality water, you can be assured that your mash pH is too high. BIAB makes that worse, as often it's a thinner mash and the mash pH is even higher than a traditional mash.

One thing to do is to get a water report from Ward Labs. It's $26.50 for the test you need, and that will allow you to fix the problems your water may have.

Most AG batches, whether BIAB or traditional, will require some acid in some form to hit the proper/best mash pH. With darker beers, some of the acidity comes from the dark grains so it's not as critical to add acid to the mash (although often it's still helpful). With lighter colored beers, if you have "normal" water that isn't ultra-soft, you will need some acid like phosphoric acid or lactic acid to fix the mash pH.

Don't let that scare you! It's super easy to do, once you know what your water contains.

 

[chawn]

This thread was very helpful for me: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

 

[hopkincr]

To answer the question...after my first BIAB. Brewed many extract/partial mashes and my first BIAB was as good - and cheaper - than any extract. Easy and efficient.

 

[Foosier]

I was happy with BIAB from the get go as it allowed me to do AG without as big an investment. My beers didn't really shine though till I nailed the other key elements of fermentation temps and water chemistry. As has been said, BIAB is just another type of AG and you really have to learn why you get the flavors you are getting so you can learn how to fix or eliminate them. (Big hint, Ferm temps and water chemistry.) Tons of info on the Brew science forum to help you get your process straight.

 

[Firewalker11]

True, and i guess the point i was trying to make was i think with traditional 3 vessel AG mashing your generally in the 1.5-2 qt/lb ratio so say at 10lb grain bill your at 4 gallons of water, when i started BiaB i went to mashing 8gallons of water and with tried and true recipes i had made before were turning out terrible, so with 3 vessel and batch sparging you may never notice any water issues

Not so, 3 vessel or BIAB, your water issues will remain the same since in effect, there is nothing different from one to the other other than the sparge which is easily accomplished with one of the many sparging techniques laid out here.

Once the water chemistry is figured out (all I needed was a 1u carbon filter) water will no longer be an issue and you can focus instead on your technique and methodology.

 

[lowtones84]

I would agree that water/ph and fermentation temperatures are critical. It is also very possible to do a "two vessel" BIAB system where you mash in one smaller pot with a more typical ratio of grain to water and dunk sparge/mash out in a larger pot with the rest of your water.

This is what I do, and it works well because the ratios and processes are more similar to three vessel AG brewing. Heat strike water, add grain, stir, mash. While the mash is going, heat the rest of the water to 170F or a bit over in the other pot and dunk sparge/mash out for 15-20 min. Drain, squeeze, combine the contents of the two pots and you're good to go. Just another option that has worked well for me for a few years.

 

[Rhaop]

Not so, 3 vessel or BIAB, your water issues will remain the same since in effect, there is nothing different from one to the other other than the sparge which is easily accomplished with one of the many sparging techniques laid out here.



Once the water chemistry is figured out (all I needed was a 1u carbon filter) water will no longer be an issue and you can focus instead on your technique and methodology.

The difference between full volume mashing or partial volume and sparging would play a part imo, ph of a mash for 7.5-8 gallons would be higher then say 3.5-4 gallons, during batch sparging the ph level might rise say for maybe 10 min but maybe that wouldn't allow for detectable tannin extraction

I only say this because i have plugged my recipes into ezwater changing only the mash volume and the estimated ph for me was quite different, only reason i could guess why my tried and true recipes had went from good to terrible, I have everything to 3 vessel or BiaB and dunk sparge, but that defeats the purpose for me in my current residence because i switched to BiaB to go single vessel full volume mash to save time and space on brew day, the difference for me is 3-4oz of acid malt

As always YMMV just sharing my experience not knocking anyones methods there's probably a million different ways to do it [emoji482]

 

[Iseneye]

I only say this because i have plugged my recipes into ezwater changing only the mash volume and the estimated ph for me was quite different, only reason i could guess why my tried and true recipes had went from good to terrible, I have everything to 3 vessel or BiaB and dunk sparge, but that defeats the purpose for me in my current residence because i switched to BiaB to go single vessel full volume mash to save time and space on brew day, the difference for me is 3-4oz of acid malt

With full volume BIAB I need to add a reasonable amount of lactic acid to get to appropriate mash pH. I also attribute it to the thinness of the mash water.

To the OP - there is nothing to be ashamed of if you are happy with your extract beers and unhappy with all grain brewing. It takes a bit of effort to make great all grain beers (IMO).

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I was happy with my first biab batch, although I never did traditional mash tun 2v or 3v brewing so that was also my first all grain. Was off slightly on volumes, efficiency was around 70%, tasted good. No complaints.

 

[jaydlaw]

1st batch - extract kit
2nd batch - extract kit with additional (added fruit)
3rd batch - extract brew, pulled recipe from website (failure)
4th batch - Biab. Success, loved it. i served it for the 4th. It was a little rushed because my 3rd batch was a failure, but everything worked. efficiency was lower than expected, but attenuation was higher than expected.
before i decided to go all grain, i thought that i would just brew extracts for a few years, but the price of everything made going biab more cost effective than extracts in the not so long term. I'm now looking for a fridge and I purchased a keg conversion kit so i no longer will need to bottle.

 

[bbohanon]

I brewed on my buddies BIAB system before I made my decision to go to a 3 vessel E-HERMS setup as I was originally thinking I wanted to do E-BIAB when I started my new E-build.

I came from an extract brewing background and moved to a cooler AG setup doing batch sparging on a turkey fryer so I was looking for simplicity and the ability to brew indoors but after having to work his hook and lever dealio he had to use to lift the 22lbs of wet grain out of that kettle to drain (making 10g batches), I was just holding my breath that the bag strings or hook and lever deal would break and hot wort was going to go everywhere so I changed direction and went with the 3 vessel setup.

To each his own though and my buddy absolutely loves his BIAB setup and would not trade it for anything. I will say his brewdays are bit shorter than mine as I have more to clean-up but my fear of the busting bag/hook scared me off of BIAB..plus I am just more comfortable in my brewing process with multiple vessels.

If you are coming from an extract only brewing background, I would say try all the AG brewing methods you affordably can (or can borrow a friends AG rig to try a different setup). Choose the one that fits your brewing style and roll with it. If you are not getting out of AG what you thought you would regardless of the method, go back to extract brewing. I know quite a few local brewer friends who only do extract beers due to lack of space/equipment, or desire to do AG batches. Nothing wrong with extract brewing at all.

I say brew happy..whatever that method may be.
:fro:

 

[thaymond]

My results dramatically improved on my BIAB system with water adjustments. I was using straight RO with no adjustments and couldnt pinpoint that "flavor" i was getting. As soon as I started uaing bru'n water sheets, things improved. Ill also chime in and add the obligatory temp control on fermentation and fresh ingredients comments. Gypsum and CaCl are all I use, and I love my results.

I also started with extract and liked how easy it is to get consistent results. No real guessing. Every once in a while, Ill brew extract for ease. Theres no shame in saying your brew is extract. Beer is beer. If it tastes great, how it was made is irrelevant. All Grain appeals to my inner mad scientist. I get far more control, but risk inconsistent results. You should be happy with your extract results, and Im confident youll be happy with your AG BIAB results with proper water chemistry additions.

OP, I also did the AG Dead Ringer kit, and it was just ok. My IPAs are better in my opinion. Okay so there MAY be some bias, but it found it too thin and dry for my tastes. That is an opinion, but once i started fomulating my own recipes to what i liked, I found the process and results very satisfying. Now if I could find some more time...

 

[Firewalker11]

The difference between full volume mashing or partial volume and sparging would play a part imo, ph of a mash for 7.5-8 gallons would be higher then say 3.5-4 gallons, during batch sparging the ph level might rise say for maybe 10 min but maybe that wouldn't allow for detectable tannin extraction

I only say this because i have plugged my recipes into ezwater changing only the mash volume and the estimated ph for me was quite different, only reason i could guess why my tried and true recipes had went from good to terrible, I have everything to 3 vessel or BiaB and dunk sparge, but that defeats the purpose for me in my current residence because i switched to BiaB to go single vessel full volume mash to save time and space on brew day, the difference for me is 3-4oz of acid malt

As always YMMV just sharing my experience not knocking anyones methods there's probably a million different ways to do it [emoji482]

I rushed my last post, I agree worn the part of pH, I was thinking more on the mineral and contaminants issue and not pH since a small addition of acid is so EZPZ.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

On the subject of mash pH, I usually use 4-6oz of acidulated malt since I know my city water is a bit on the alkaline side. I dislike the idea of disolving my hands (I can be clumsy).

 

[Rhaop]

I rushed my last post, I agree worn the part of pH, I was thinking more on the mineral and contaminants issue and not pH since a small addition of acid is so EZPZ.

No worries i'm always open to others opinions especially if it makes my beer better cheers!

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1436209808.477674.jpg

Just a snap shot of my BiaB setup another project was my CFC to "save water" but gravity draining took so long i bought the chugger and created a makeshift whirlpool arm, i get alot of cold break in my bucket but the hops form a nice cone after a 15-20 chill/whirlpool i then pinch the hose by the whirlpool arm and hold it over my fermenter to fill quickly


Edit: as of fathers day i also ditched that turkey fryer for a blichman burner

 

[Psylocide]

I saw a marked improvement from extract to BIAB, but my process overall had gotten better by that point as well.

I really want to do another extract batch at some point, just to see how much better it would be knowing what I know now.

Of course, when I can do 2 BIAB batches for the price of one extract batch, that thought goes out the window pretty quickly.

 

[Magnus314]

It sounds like your guests felt the BIAB was better, but only you and two other extract brewers liked the extract ones...

If everyone else liked your BIAB batches better, maybe you've just trained your pallet to like extract-y beers better.

I find extract brewing to be a huge P.I.T.A. In the time it takes to steep the grains, cut the heat and stir in, boil, stop the boil and add the rest of the extract late, etc. i can mash, sparge, and boil my AG BIAB.

And with extract, the finished beer is cloyingly sweet unless I do something to it to compensate in the recipe or do a PM or something.

I brew tons of light colored beers BIAB by mashing thicker - like 1.5 - 2 qts/lb - and sparging with 150-160* or even cool water to volume.

Easy peasy and no off flavors or syrupy beers.

 

[Magnus314]

It sounds like your guests felt the BIAB was better, but only you and two other extract brewers liked the extract ones...

If everyone else liked your BIAB batches better, maybe you've just trained your pallet to like extract-y beers better.

I find extract brewing to be a huge P.I.T.A. In the time it takes to steep the grains, cut the heat and stir in, boil, stop the boil and add the rest of the extract late, etc. i can mash, sparge, and boil my AG BIAB.

And with extract, the finished beer is cloyingly sweet unless I do something to it to compensate in the recipe or do a PM or something.

I brew tons of light colored beers BIAB by mashing thicker - like 1.5 - 2 qts/lb - and sparging with 150-160* or even cool water to volume.

Easy peasy and no off flavors or syrupy beers.

Calcium Chloride and Gypsum may help your beers' flavors POP if you are using R/O or rainwater.

 

[eadavis80]

I think the others liked my BIAB better because it was less robust than the other two beers. It was pretty mild compared to the other two entrants. My wife and my mother-in-law liked mine, as did my nephew, who is a Busch Light drinking fraternity college kid - not sure they're the best judges of taste. But hey - I've got 2 more batches of BIAB working now - another Dead Ringer and an Oktoberfest so we'll see how those turn out. If they are improved from the first two, then I'll probably stick with it. If they are the same quality, it might be extract only from here on out...

 

[DurtyChemist]

I liked BIAB as soon as I did 10 gallon extract batches and realized I could do it for half. As mentioned above its about the same amount of time too. I do 8 gallons of water and 10-15 lbs of grain. Check my pre boil volume and either rinse grains or boil away. I use my grain bag for hops too so I get less trub in my fermenter but it also settles out quite nicely.

 

[SeraW]

My first brews were on a friend's 3 vessel 12g setup. Then my first batches in my own home was BIAB w/sparge method, and my first was dead on. I loved it. The 2nd had a hiccup due to still dialing in temps (got very lucky on batch 1, but 2 was drinkable), but since then, I've gotten very consistent.

I'm sure a truly bad batch is in my future, but for now, BIAB has always made me very happy.

 

[Supertrapped]

Probably two batches into it

 

[Firewalker11]

I just picked up my next grain bill and with using the yeast from another batch and buying bulk grain (2 row) and hops, my total was under $11 for 5 gallons vs the same in kit form with extracts for $35.

I find it takes me no more time and I get a better product.

 

[talos4]

Sitting around one afternoon my brother and i were complaining about the price of a 1/4 barrel and how bad it really did taste after we spent some time in more than a few brew pubs sampling the wares.

We took the plunge and went 3V. We were both hooked. It was a pain driving out to his place to brew and then keg I wanted to do it at home. I had just downsized to an apartment and didn't have the room or facilities for 3V. I gave BIAB a shot. I not going to look back.

I had the luxury of working a 3v system so I had a leg up on the BIAB method. Honestly I've not had a bad beer YET!

I have done several small batch extracts and was not thrilled with the final product. Not bad mind you, just not quite right.

I'm a brewer that's not into all the chemistry and gadgets beyond the neccessary that some do. Water PH, treatments etc.
Don't get me wrong, I have hydrometers, star san, PBW, brew kettle with a built in thermometer and ball valve etc.

I just figure if a bunch of monks hundreds of years ago could brew beer with wood fires, open fermenters and river water, I can do it with city tap water and my electric range.

 

[Rhaop]

"I just figure if a bunch of monks hundreds of years ago could brew beer with wood fires, open fermenters and river water, I can do it with city tap water and my electric range."


And such is the spirit of BiaB, and the nice thing about BiaB is that you can keep it simple or make it as complex as you want, i full volume mash but i added a pump for ease of whirlpooling and using my CFC

 

[Mer-man]

Immediately. I did 3 extract batches before trying BIAB.

If I decide to go larger volumes than 6G, I will eventually do 3V. But for the foreseeable future, I am happy with BIAB.

I will also echo the sentiment that if you have mash pH problems, try reserving some for a sparge. I have difficult water now and just tried doing a dunk sparge and made a great beer with less water tinkering.
(Partial volume will also allow a larger beer!)

 

[MattyIce]

I fell in love with BIAB the very minute I realized I could ditch the picnic coolers. They worked fine, but they were so much more cumbersome and difficult to clean well. I consistently hit 78-83% efficiency with my BIAB setup...I see no reason to go back.