BIAB VS All-In-One System

[danb35]

You can get a keezer from a real company with an American presence, like Frigidaire or Magic Chef, and they'll honor their warranty.

...which is one year. If my kegerator dies after more than a year, I'm SOL. If your keezer dies after more than a year, you're equally SOL. Nobody's repairing residential chest freezers, any more than they're repairing residential mini-fridges. Will morebeer.com (who effectively are Komos) replace a unit that dies within a year? I'd expect so, but I hope to not learn from personal experience. But all your talk about warranty only matters for the first year after purchase; after that, the warranty's gone, both for you and for me. You and I both expect that our respective products will last well over a year, so the warranty's irrelevant.

Does a keezer cost less? It can--but you're replacing some of that money with your labor in doing the conversion (which also means you can dress it up however you like, consistent with your budget, tools, and skill set). If you don't want your taps coming out the front--which I didn't--you can do that with a keezer too, but (1) say goodbye to that warranty you seem to value so much (since now you're cutting a hole in the lid); (2) you're looking at more work, and more money (now you need a tap tower), to do the conversion; and (3) you can't put it very close to a wall, because the tap tower would hit the wall when opening the lid.

Then, of course, there's the top-load vs. front-load issue. On the plus side for a keezer, you have ready access to all your kegs when you open the lid. On the minus side, you need to lift 50+-pound kegs 3+ feet in the air to load or unload them. I can do that, but I'd rather not.

If gas inside the unit is important to you, you could do that with the Komos as well. If you want to feed two gases into it, yep, you can do that too. Neither of those is important to me (at least at this time), so I'm not doing them. I like that the Komos has a clean way to feed gas in from the outside. I do use the bracket on the Komos, and since it's out of sight I don't much care what it looks like (though I don't think it's particularly unsightly).

I'm not saying that people shouldn't build keezers. That'd be a silly thing for me to say, because there are pros and cons to everything, and this is no exception. But it's no less silly to say that nobody should buy a kegerator

 

[Christoff]

I was in your sitution almost two years. I got hooked and super excited about brewing and jumped to all grain pretty quick. I got the Spike Solo as a gift (maybe they wanted a personal brewer for life because now I am indebted lol). I have to say I really enjoy the Solo now that I have gotten the hang of it. The problem is more the amount of beer I have to brew in it and I can't drink that much, nor can the gifter. I do BIAB over the winter now because it's too cold in my shop. It is much better to accommodate smaller batches but I find the efficiency is not nearly as good as the Solo. It is much nicer to lauter and then pull the basket out and straight to the compost. I even lauter a second time sometimes. But like someone above mentioned, it takes forever to heat up water with a 110 system (over an hour and then about 45 minutes to get up to boiling, which it never fully does because the wattage output just isnt there fodr 6-7 gal of water). I heat my water up on the stove which takes a fraction of the time. I looked into upgrading my outlet and running 240 to my system, but I was shocked at price of wire these days. This is one thing you may find, brewing is the gift that keeps on giving. I found getting into a spike system has resulted in a lot of pricey upgrades as I learn what are good pieces of equipment, better brew techniques, and how I actually like to brew beer. I should have learned a bit longer with cheaper equipment because I have quite a bit of stuff I would never have purchased if I knew then what I know now. With that said, if you have the money, find a good second hand AIO system and try it out before you commit. Or dive in if you have the money. My changes have been expenses. I also second the comment above about getting a chest freezer and temperature control. I would have done that first if I had known. Now I am looking into options and I have (over) spent my budget lol

 

[mac_1103]

On the minus side, you need to lift 50+-pound kegs 3+ feet in the air to load or unload them. I can do that, but I'd rather not.

At my age this is rapidly becoming the most important consideration. I can still do this, and I hope I will be able to for another decade or more, but it just doesn't seem wise and I have passed up several good deals on used keezers for this reason.

The other major consideration for me is that I don't want my beer taps in the basement because that's not where I drink my beer. And anything that's going into the family room is going to have to meet certain aesthetic standards imposed by SWMBO. So it looks like minikegs with picnic taps in the minifridge for the foreseeable future.

 

[danb35]

And anything that's going into the family room is going to have to meet certain aesthetic standards imposed by SWMBO.

Yes, WAF was another factor favoring the kegerator. I've seen some very nice-looking keezers--but those aren't "buy a freezer, build a collar, profit!" jobs. The Komos isn't visually stunning, but it's still neat and clean. No objections from SWMBO about having it in the dining room.

 

[Broken Crow]

A couple points come to mind.(.and some levity)
1/ Tanks in or out of the unit: Personally I'd never put my tank or even secondary regulators on the inside. Maybe it's the brain-damage and inability to do the math (HINT: maybe @doug293cz can give us the math here), but like CO2, propane state-changes to liquid when compressed and I have experience in that. In the late 70's early 80's, a number of folk converted their vehicles to run on propane... as a consequence, in the freezing cold days of winter my dad's service station frequently got calls from people whose propane powered vehicle had run out on the highway. We could simply go out and tow them to a the nearest station for a refill, but that cost $35 if I remember rightly, and at that time if you were an average working-class guy, that would cancel at least 2 family pizza nights... My dad always put the working-class customers needs first, so we'd make sure they knew the route to the closest place for a refill and tell them to drink as much water as they could possibly hold and then go back to their vehicle and piss on the tank...9 times out of 10, that was enough to get them running long enough to drive to the station and keep their cash. Just as an experiment with my first kegerator, I but the tank and reg inside, and when it ran out, I removed it and reconnected it from the outside and sure enough I got another keg and a half plus a purge of a another keg out of it just because of the temperature difference.
2/ @danb35 just said it above:

Then, of course, there's the top-load vs. front-load issue. On the plus side for a keezer, you have ready access to all your kegs when you open the lid. On the minus side, you need to lift 50+-pound kegs 3+ feet in the air to load or unload them. I can do that, but I'd rather not.

..I'm disabled, and there's none of us getting any younger. My first choice would be to build a keezer, but I physically require the front-loading, and upright freezers are far too problematic, probably not for everyone but for me.
I'm currently using the Series-X with four taps and I couldn't be happier. @KegLand has made all the replacement parts readily available should I ever need them, and I'm comfortable with HVAC work. (Plus: It is a sharp looking unit in the corner of my kitchen where an equally accomodating keezer wouldn't fit)

 

[doug293cz]

Tanks in or out of the unit: Personally I'd never put my tank or even secondary regulators on the inside. Maybe it's the brain-damage and inability to do the math (HINT: maybe @doug293cz can give us the math here), but like CO2, propane state-changes to liquid when compressed and I have experience in that. In the late 70's early 80's, a number of folk converted their vehicles to run on propane... as a consequence, in the freezing cold days of winter my dad's service station frequently got calls from people whose propane powered vehicle had run out on the highway.

While the physics are the same for both CO2 and propane (liquefied gas under pressure), the vapor pressure vs. temperature properties are quite different. The vapor pressure (pressure of gas in equilibrium with liquid) of propane at -25°C (-13°F) is about 2 bar (or 15 psig.) The vapor pressure of CO2 at -25°C is about 17 bar (or 235 psig.) So in cold weather, propane won't have much pressure to push it out of the tank, but CO2 still does. So, your beer will freeze before your CO2 tank will run out of pressure in your keezer/keggerator.

Just as an experiment with my first kegerator, I but the tank and reg inside, and when it ran out, I removed it and reconnected it from the outside and sure enough I got another keg and a half plus a purge of a another keg out of it just because of the temperature difference.

I call BS on this. Let's assume that a CO2 cylinder is effectively empty at 15 psig (no longer enough pressure differential to drive a regulator set to deliver 12 psig.) A 5 lb cylinder has a nominal volume of 220 cu in, or 3.6 L. At 32°F (0°C) the density of CO2 at 14.7 psia is 1.977 g/L, so at 15 psig (29.7 psia) the density is 1.977 g/L * 29.7 psia / 14.7 psia = 3.994 g/L, and our "empty" cylinder will contain 3.6 L* 3.994 g/L = 14.4 g of CO2. At 70°F (21°C) the density of CO2 at 15 psig will be 3.994 gm/L * 273.15°K / 294.15°K = 3.709 g/L, and the empty cylinder will contain 3.6 L * 3.709 g/L = 13.3 g of CO2.

So, a 5 lb cylinder of CO2 can deliver 14.4 - 13.3 = 1.1 g more CO2 at 70°F than it can at 32°F.

Pushing 5 gal of beer out of a keg @ 10 psig takes about 5 gal * 3.7854 L/gal * 1.977 g/L * 24.7 / 14.7 = 63 g. Carbonating 5 gal takes a similar amount, but I'll skip the math, cause it's just piling on.

QED

Brew on

 

[Broken Crow]

While the physics are the same for both CO2 and propane (liquefied gas under pressure), the vapor pressure vs. temperature properties are quite different. The vapor pressure (pressure of gas in equilibrium with liquid) of propane at -25°C (-13°F) is about 2 bar (or 15 psig.) The vapor pressure of CO2 at -25°C is about 17 bar (or 235 psig.) So in cold weather, propane won't have much pressure to push it out of the tank, but CO2 still does. So, your beer will freeze before your CO2 tank will run out of pressure in your keezer/keggerator.

I call BS on this. Let's assume that a CO2 cylinder is effectively empty at 15 psig (no longer enough pressure differential to drive a regulator set to deliver 12 psig.) A 5 lb cylinder has a nominal volume of 220 cu in, or 3.6 L. At 32°F (0°C) the density of CO2 at 14.7 psia is 1.977 g/L, so at 15 psig (29.7 psia) the density is 1.977 g/L * 29.7 psia / 14.7 psia = 3.994 g/L, and our "empty" cylinder will contain 3.6 L* 3.994 g/L = 14.4 g of CO2. At 70°F (21°C) the density of CO2 at 15 psig will be 3.994 gm/L * 273.15°K / 294.15°K = 3.709 g/L, and the empty cylinder will contain 3.6 L * 3.709 g/L = 13.3 g of CO2.

So, a 5 lb cylinder of CO2 can deliver 14.4 - 13.3 = 1.1 g more CO2 at 70°F than it can at 32°F.

Pushing 5 gal of beer out of a keg @ 10 psig takes about 5 gal * 3.7854 L/gal * 1.977 g/L * 24.7 / 14.7 = 63 g. Carbonating 5 gal takes a similar amount, but I'll skip the math, cause it's just piling on.

QED

Brew on

Thank You! I based my judgement of 'empty' on the pour being significantly slower, and when I checked the gauge it had dropped to zero. I did get the further use out it as I said, but now I think of it, I was using my first regulator which was still one of those cheap Chinese ones that's now in my 'to-go' pile owing to lack of low-side precision...... I've gotta stop making assumptions.

 

[Saunassa]

@Dave77 back to your question, I would suggest stay with biab for now and work on ferm temp control. I have a cold basement closet, approx 60f, so I use a ferm wrap and ink bird temp controller. That was the big step up in quality.
I do have an Anvil but when I do brews with lots of hops I still use my 8g pot and wilser bag and propane. Hard to fit 1.5 pounds of fresh nugget hops in the Anvil.
Hop packets for size reference

 

[Geezer-Glide]

I agree with Clint above. I have a Edgestar kegerator, a chest freezer ferm cab and a mini-fridge converted to a kegerator.
I bought the kegerator at a give away price as it was broken and the cost to have it repaired was more than it was worth to the previous owner. I fixed it and it works for now. There is not much you can’t fix. They are simple machines. You also need to have a way to buy refrigerants. So unless you have a “Universal” ticket or are friends with a “refer mechanic” costs can get really high, really fast.

my experience with off-shore suppliers has been very disappointing. Not long ago I purchased a refrigerant reclaim cylinder from a Chinese company. When it arrived, it had no DOT identification stamps. So I couldn’t use it to return recovered refrigerants. So, useless for my purposes. Devil’s own time trying to return it. Endless e-mails explaining the problem. Communication problems as the sales group had no technical background and their English was better than my Chinese but not a lot. Finally settled for a partial refund a kept what was for me a nearly useless cylinder.

So, for my money the most bulletproof system is converting a chest freezer. If it dies a new freezer is not expensive and all the fittings, taps and ancillary equipment easily transferred.

 

[user 338926]

Anytime you're considering new equipment, differentiate "want" and "need". Both are fine, just be honest with yourself which is which.