German Hefeweizen Advice

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Morrey

Morrey

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Greetings all! The wife is requesting a Hefe, and as we all know the saying: Happy Wife, Happy Life. I am not really that crazy about a Hefe partly due to the fact I am not a fruit beer fan. I know we all agree that a Hefe is NOT a fruit beer, but I have had a few that tasted like banana popsicles infused with cloves. My goal is to give her a great Hefe while making it drinkable for me with "low key" banana esters that play a background role....not the leading role. I'll call this a well crafted beer.

BIAB, the recipe I designed in BeerSmith is 4.5# Pils 2 row, 4.5# light wheat mashed at 153F 60 min. Boil 60 min with 1oz (maybe .75 oz) Hallertau for full 60 min. Drop temp and pitch either wlp300 or wyeast 3068 as a 1 liter starter.

Ferment at 62F for 10-14 days until no signs of fermentation. Rack to keg and store at 34F.

OK...my questions are: does anyone see a flaw in my plan based on the fact I'd like to make this a well balanced Hefe beer w/ min banana hit you in the face flavor? Should I build a starter with Hefe yeast to avoid stress which throws flavors? Ferment at 62F 10-14 days and rack straight to keg for conditioning? How long to condition and when is the beer at its peak? Some say young...how young?

Thanks for feedback everyone!!!!!
 
I haven't been brewing a full year yet, but those flavors you want to avoid become dominant at higher fermentation temps. The temps reccomended on the package of yeast are best. This is a 5 gallon batch? I'm not sure if the grain is a little light or not. And fermentation is over when the hydrometer says it is... A few readings the same every other day. 14 days should be good, but to know for sure take those readings. White Labs has a chart on their sight breaking down temps and results. I'm eager to read what others have to say.
 
Hoppy2bmerry said:
I haven't been brewing a full year yet, but those flavors you want to avoid become dominant at higher fermentation temps. The temps reccomended on the package of yeast are best. This is a 5 gallon batch? I'm not sure if the grain is a little light or not. And fermentation is over when the hydrometer says it is... A few readings the same every other day. 14 days should be good, but to know for sure take those readings. White Labs has a chart on their sight breaking down temps and results. I'm eager to read what others have to say.
Click to expand...

Yes, 5G batch and thanks for catching that omission. The wyeast F range is 64F-75F as listed, and true, the higher the temp, the more esters the yeast will produce. One of the reasons I wanted to post this is to make sure that other experienced Hefe brewers would weigh in on me dropping to 62F which is slightly below the yeast's range. I think this low temp will produce less esters, but will the yeast perform as needed? It may add a day or so to the fermenter time as well.

I plugged a 5#, 5# grain bill into BeerSmith and it had my OG a bit too high for this style. So I brought it down to 4.5# and 4.5# and the OG fell into acceptable range.
 
I haven't brewed a hefe yet, but actually am planning on it and have the ingredients to do an AG batch this weekend. I've read up on WLP300 and I think 62 may be pushing the low end. I'd follow the temps on the package (68-72) and stay on the low end of that recommendation. I have seen accounts of lower ferment temps giving the beer a very strong clove nose, even though the taste was pretty good. I'm using WLP300 for my brew, because I'm looking to recreate a hefeweizen I had while living in Germany.

(Take all of that "research" with a grain of salt...the internet is not always the best resource.)

If you want wheat without the banana, why not try an American wheat or Belgian wheat? If you want to keep it German, look into WLP380, which can tolerate lower fermenting temps and is advertised to have minimal banana taste.
 
Good point as the wlp380 has been on my radar screen. If this was up to me I'd be doing an American Wheat all the way, but I think that is too far of a stretch as far as the wife is concerned. She bases her requests on the fact she orders a beer in a restaurant and asks me to brew her one like this.....Franziskaner

I need to take another look, but I think wyeast 3068 has a lower range of 64F. That temp surely would throw less banana.
 
It is a recommended range, not an absolute cutoff. I have fermented with 3068 many times at 62F and it gives a nice balanced flavor. Your grain bill is fine, 50/50 wheat and pilsner malt and 1 oz Hallertau at 60 min. I use 65/35 ratio but that it just a matter of preference. For more pronounced banana flavor, you need to underpitch (no starter) and ferment around 68 to 70F. I found a better flavor balance in the lower range, 62 to 64F.
Note that Hefe yeast gives different flavors in different temp range. You need a good way of controlling temperature. Digital controller with probe atached to the fermentor or in a thermowell.
Do keep it in the fermentor for 2 weeks. Wyeast 3068 produces a sulfur (rotten egg) flavor and aroma in the first week when it reaches final gravity and cleans it up nicely in the second week.
 
ed007 said:
It is a recommended range, not an absolute cutoff. I have fermented with 3068 many times at 62F and it gives a nice balanced flavor. Your grain bill is fine, 50/50 wheat and pilsner malt and 1 oz Hallertau at 60 min. I use 65/35 ratio but that it just a matter of preference. For more pronounced banana flavor, you need to underpitch (no starter) and ferment around 68 to 70F. I found a better flavor balance in the lower range, 62 to 64F.
Note that Hefe yeast gives different flavors in different temp range. You need a good way of controlling temperature. Digital controller with probe atached to the fermentor or in a thermowell.
Do keep it in the fermentor for 2 weeks. Wyeast 3068 produces a sulfur (rotten egg) flavor and aroma in the first week when it reaches final gravity and cleans it up nicely in the second week.
Click to expand...

Ed007, I am following your temp plan and I also attach probe directly to FV and cover that with a neoprene cover to insulate against ambient readings. Once I rack to keg at the end of week two (I'll be looking at FG as well), I will apply gas psi to the carb level I desire with set and forget. Should 4 weeks grain to glass be about right for a young Hefe?
 
Go with Belgian Wit yeast instead of Hefe yeast. Guaranteed your wife will like as much as a hefe, and you'll probably like it better too since you get away from the banana thing.
 
Morrey said:
Ed007, I am following your temp plan and I also attach probe directly to FV and cover that with a neoprene cover to insulate against ambient readings. Once I rack to keg at the end of week two (I'll be looking at FG as well), I will apply gas psi to the carb level I desire with set and forget. Should 4 weeks grain to glass be about right for a young Hefe?
Click to expand...

That's definitely doable. I ran my first dunkelweizen with a 2 week fermentation and 1 week to fully carbonate using CO2. I also fermented at 62F, which is the recommended fermentation temp for WLP300/Wyeast 3068 to get the best balance of flavors per Jamil Zainasheff. Anything colder and clove will come out and anything warmer will be a banana bomb.
 
ReverseMonk said:
Go with Belgian Wit yeast instead of Hefe yeast. Guaranteed your wife will like as much as a hefe, and you'll probably like it better too since you get away from the banana thing.
Click to expand...

This is a darn good idea. That banana thing has me worried! I always think of orange peel and coriander when I think of Belgian, but the yeast won't have a clue if its not there!!!! Looking at yeast strains now...thanks for a suggestion.
 
The easiest way to cut down ester production is pitch more yeast and keep fermentation cool in the first 3-5 days of active fermentation. I like this yeast calculator:

http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

Under pitching and fermenting warm are the easiest ways to make a flavorful hefe. You don't have to try hard to work around ester production.

If you want the opposite pitch heavy or like others have suggested, use a yeast that doesn't produce the characters you don't like. I'd suggest wyeast 1010. It's really sounds like that's what you're looking for.
 
WLP 380 is my favorite hefe yeast. It has some banana but is leaning much more towards clove. I ferment all my hefes at 62.
 
I have 22 wheat batches under my belt. That is because I love wheat beers and dark wheat beers. I have done Belgian and American hybrids, to traditional weisse. If you want to avoid banana or keep it at a pleasant aroma vs flavor I would say pitch at 0.8-1M cells/mL/P viability of your yeast will matter, starters will need used. I also think you have got to have a fermentation chamber, and start it out for atleast 70% to FG at 62-63F and let it free ride to 68F to finish up. Do not let it get over 69F it will give you that banana that I fight for brew after brew. Great hefeweizens need to be smooth and balanced liquid bread. So that bready yeasty brew needs to have some great wheat malt, and white wheat wont cut it. Step up to red wheat, much smoother full bodied wheat IMO. At the very least get a Avangard or Weyermann Wheat malt, the domestic wheat I have tried has not been that great.

Yeasts I recommend are Wyeast 3068 or 3638 White Labs 351 or 380. I have a batch of 380 working now, Imperial Dunkelweizen. 1.069 OG with 83% efficiency! 65% Wheat only 4 days into fermentation
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4A6BxAxuOjDbWJVclNGelJXNjQ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4A6BxAxuOjDcUVLSjB4NGtycEU

My last weizenbock
https://drive.google.com/open?id=18qHdnqtmD-FnV_pU2aVMFTt4DPbB1WQFkQ
 
Made a Hefe last year at 62F for a week, then bumped up to 66F for another week to just clean everything up. It was a perfect beer, banana notes were very mild while clove was there but not overpowering. It easily won my homebrew club's summer competition. Was a 50/50 split between wheat and pils. This year I am going 55/45 with wheat leading the way.
 
Should you do a 90 minute boil with 50% pils? I know in pils heavy beers DMS is a concern at a shorter boil.
 
I am hijacking my own thread here........but wanted to reference the above boil time discussion about pils heavy beers. I make German/Bohemian/Czech Pilsner beers frequently using the BIAB method. These beers are certainly pils heavy. Sometimes I miscalculate my strike water volume and have to reduce the wort by boil off resulting in a longer than 60 min boil. But, as a standard procedure, I shoot for a 60 min boil schedule. Having more strike water and a longer boil off will help efficiency percentages, so is this the benefit you speak of?

Does the court of popular opinion say that increasing my boil time to 90 min be beneficial to my end product?
 
I think no. Anything that benefits your product is process that is planned out and done with intention. Kettle caramelization should be done with intent, and to bring out that flavor. You will give your brew a flavor you did not put in your grist. So I would say better knowledge/process and note for next time. IMO you are far better to have more beer that is a little off gravity, but has the right flavor, than the right amount of beer at the right gravity with a bad flavor. Plus gravity can be made up easily in the boil with dme/lme, and at the end of the day, choose what matters to you the most. At the end of the day, your mistakes is what makes you experienced.
 
Morrey said:
Greetings all! The wife is requesting a Hefe, and as we all know the saying: Happy Wife, Happy Life. I am not really that crazy about a Hefe partly due to the fact I am not a fruit beer fan. I know we all agree that a Hefe is NOT a fruit beer, but I have had a few that tasted like banana popsicles infused with cloves. My goal is to give her a great Hefe while making it drinkable for me with "low key" banana esters that play a background role....not the leading role. I'll call this a well crafted beer.

BIAB, the recipe I designed in BeerSmith is 4.5# Pils 2 row, 4.5# light wheat mashed at 153F 60 min. Boil 60 min with 1oz (maybe .75 oz) Hallertau for full 60 min. Drop temp and pitch either wlp300 or wyeast 3068 as a 1 liter starter.

Ferment at 62F for 10-14 days until no signs of fermentation. Rack to keg and store at 34F.

OK...my questions are: does anyone see a flaw in my plan based on the fact I'd like to make this a well balanced Hefe beer w/ min banana hit you in the face flavor? Should I build a starter with Hefe yeast to avoid stress which throws flavors? Ferment at 62F 10-14 days and rack straight to keg for conditioning? How long to condition and when is the beer at its peak? Some say young...how young?

Thanks for feedback everyone!!!!!
Click to expand...

You might want to try WLP380. It has a rep for lower banana/higher clove.
 
Morrey to respond to your message here is 2 of my favs so far.

Wheat Farmers Daughter
Dunkelweizen
Water
Brown Balanced
Grist
60% German Wheat
20% German Light Munich 6L
16% German Pils
3% American Midnight Wheat
3% Dark Brown Sugar
Hops are always what is available, what sounds good but I shoot for ~22.5 IBU and a balance factor of 0.40. OG right at 1.056 is the money shot. My last go at this recipe was
1oz Amarillo 8.4% AA -36 min
1oz Hallertau 4% AA - 10 min
.25oz Sweet Orange Peel - 10 min

Bavarian Wheat 3638/ wlp351
.84M/mL/P

Multi step Mash - 1.30:1 qt/lbs
110F Beta-Gluc Rest 30 mins
138F Beta-Al/Pep/Pro Rest 20 mins
151F Sacc 60 mins
15 mins in remove 1/3 for decoction
Mash out 168F for 15mins for consistency

Boil 60 mins to the sec

Always use a starter, as mention .84M/mL/P. Start at 64F for 48 hrs, let it free ride to 70F for 12 hrs, bring it to 68F for the remainder of the brew. shoot for 75%+ Act. Attn

Stocks of Wheat in Bock
American Weizenbock
Water - Yellow Malty
Grist
60% American Red Wheat
30% American Light Munich
5% German Melanoidin
3% American Crystal 120L
1% American Chocolate
1% American Midnight Wheat

Hops
1 oz Motueka 8.4% - 35 mins
1 oz Mandarina Bavaria 6.6%AA - 10 mins

IBU 30
BF 0.39
OG 1.077

Multi step Mash I start, same as above qt/lbs ratio
110F Beta-Gluc Rest 30 mins
138F Beta-Al/Pep/Pro Rest 20 mins
150F Sacc 60 mins
15 mins in remove 1/3 for decoction
35 mins in remove 1/3 for decoction
I usually hit the high end at about 155-156F after decoction brings the batch back down. Just stir up
really well for hot spots and keep room temp water
Mash out 168F for 15mins for consistency

Bavarian Wheat 3056/3638/351
pitchrate for this one is a bit higher .95M/mL/P

My favorite banana monster brew was a free ride for the first 12 hrs then got crashed to 63F to ride out from there. after a week at 63F I let it rise 2F an hour up to 68F and let it drop the last 10 pts or so. It was not balanced, it was an amazing banana bread rum raisin kind of thing going on with Special B and Bavarian wheat wlp351. It was good but most enthusiasts would tell me it was out of balance and not in style, but idk I thought it was great. Kind of reminded me of liquid banana bread with some rum soaked raisins. I liked it, but have not made it that way since...

I will go out and say it, I have been told by Denny Conn that decoction is a waste of time and the brew I have in the fermenter is what I tried. I will report back with my results and preferences in decoction vs no decoction. I will try to be subjective. I wanted to have a side by side comparison but unfortunately life gets in the way of this hobby more than I like it. Stupid bills, job, mortgage etc... you know the grown up ****.
 
jjeffers09 said:
Morrey to respond to your message here is 2 of my favs so far.

Wheat Farmers Daughter
Dunkelweizen
Water
Brown Balanced
Grist
60% German Wheat
20% German Light Munich 6L
16% German Pils
3% American Midnight Wheat
3% Dark Brown Sugar
Hops are always what is available, what sounds good but I shoot for ~22.5 IBU and a balance factor of 0.40. OG right at 1.056 is the money shot. My last go at this recipe was
1oz Amarillo 8.4% AA -36 min
1oz Hallertau 4% AA - 10 min
.25oz Sweet Orange Peel - 10 min

Bavarian Wheat 3638/ wlp351
.84M/mL/P

Multi step Mash - 1.30:1 qt/lbs
110F Beta-Gluc Rest 30 mins
138F Beta-Al/Pep/Pro Rest 20 mins
151F Sacc 60 mins
15 mins in remove 1/3 for decoction
Mash out 168F for 15mins for consistency

Boil 60 mins to the sec

Always use a starter, as mention .84M/mL/P. Start at 64F for 48 hrs, let it free ride to 70F for 12 hrs, bring it to 68F for the remainder of the brew. shoot for 75%+ Act. Attn

Stocks of Wheat in Bock
American Weizenbock
Water - Yellow Malty
Grist
60% American Red Wheat
30% American Light Munich
5% German Melanoidin
3% American Crystal 120L
1% American Chocolate
1% American Midnight Wheat

Hops
1 oz Motueka 8.4% - 35 mins
1 oz Mandarina Bavaria 6.6%AA - 10 mins

IBU 30
BF 0.39
OG 1.077

Multi step Mash I start, same as above qt/lbs ratio
110F Beta-Gluc Rest 30 mins
138F Beta-Al/Pep/Pro Rest 20 mins
150F Sacc 60 mins
15 mins in remove 1/3 for decoction
35 mins in remove 1/3 for decoction
I usually hit the high end at about 155-156F after decoction brings the batch back down. Just stir up
really well for hot spots and keep room temp water
Mash out 168F for 15mins for consistency

Bavarian Wheat 3056/3638/351
pitchrate for this one is a bit higher .95M/mL/P

My favorite banana monster brew was a free ride for the first 12 hrs then got crashed to 63F to ride out from there. after a week at 63F I let it rise 2F an hour up to 68F and let it drop the last 10 pts or so. It was not balanced, it was an amazing banana bread rum raisin kind of thing going on with Special B and Bavarian wheat wlp351. It was good but most enthusiasts would tell me it was out of balance and not in style, but idk I thought it was great. Kind of reminded me of liquid banana bread with some rum soaked raisins. I liked it, but have not made it that way since...

I will go out and say it, I have been told by Denny Conn that decoction is a waste of time and the brew I have in the fermenter is what I tried. I will report back with my results and preferences in decoction vs no decoction. I will try to be subjective. I wanted to have a side by side comparison but unfortunately life gets in the way of this hobby more than I like it. Stupid bills, job, mortgage etc... you know the grown up ****.
Click to expand...

These look great! And thank you for sending!!!

And I surely agree that life gets in the way of my brewing schedule as well! Here I am at work while the wife is at home with our daughter in law, her sister and mom, and drinking ALL my beers! LOL. What about this picture ain't fair???
 
JJ's 2x2 Dunkelweizen - no decoction mash. Head did not last as long as usual, and the mouthfeel is a little more watery, but maybe not enough to warrant the decoction mashing... idk, wish I had a way to 3 way blind taste test. This brew is smooth and delicious though. Not the best hop choice but is sessionable. I am getting lemon peel from the motueka ~ 18IBU ranger
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4A6BxAxuOjDbTNPMHFMR1ZKVW8
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4A6BxAxuOjDcjBvclNHSVE1OGM
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4A6BxAxuOjDSlJxWHg0UGpfeGc
 
I am currently drinking a Hybrid wheat... I labeled it American Hefe...

I used 4.25 lbs White Wheat and 4.25 lbs pale 2-row and pitched 3068 that I had saved from a previous traditional hefe recipe.

Fermented 12 days at 66F.

Hardly ant detectable banana...
 
ChefDougAU said:
I am currently drinking a Hybrid wheat... I labeled it American Hefe...

I used 4.25 lbs White Wheat and 4.25 lbs pale 2-row and pitched 3068 that I had saved from a previous traditional hefe recipe.

Fermented 12 days at 66F.

Hardly ant detectable banana...
Click to expand...

Excellent! I brewed my Hefe yesterday and it took off like the yeast starter had rocket fuel in it! Glad I used a blow off tube!!

I am starting the ferm at 62F for one week, bumping to 65F second week. I'll check FG, but I figure 14 days will do the trick. Rack to keg for cold lagering/conditioning 2 weeks. G2G in 4 weeks!
 
I use a 60% red wheat to 40% pils and keep the IBUs under 25. I ferment at 65 degrees for 10 days using a blow-off tube using either wlp300 or wy3068 yeast and let it carb up in a keg for 7 days. :)
 
lawrenjl said:
I use a 60% red wheat to 40% pils and keep the IBUs under 25. I ferment at 65 degrees for 10 days using a blow-off tube using either wlp300 or wy3068 yeast and let it carb up in a keg for 7 days. :)
Click to expand...

How did your color come out with this grain bill? I'd like to achieve a SRM about 5.5 - 7L.
 

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