Easy Steam Infusion Mash System

[FlyGuy]

I'll just chime in with my opinion. My experience with my system tells me that even a small pot generates plenty of heat for a 5 gal batch. I use just a 5.5 L pressure cooker, and I have no trouble stepping through my rest temperatures. A 122 protein rest to 154 saccharification rest only takes 10 - 12 mins. I really don't think you want to raise your mash temp more quickly than that, even if you have a motorized stirrer or you are using a recirculating pump (actually, I have built and used the latter -- I am not using a March pump to recirculate wort out of the bottom of the mash tun up to the top to avoid stirring -- works fine, and one of these days I will do a write up on this system. I call it a SIRMS system -- Steam Injected Recirculating Mash System).

Anyways, my system was not limited by the pot size or temperature/pressure of the water, but rather the capacity of my stove element to deliver heat. A larger pot/volume of water will give you a longer initial temperature boost, but the remainder depends on how much heat energy you can deliver to the pot to keep the temp/pressure up. I have considered using a small gas burner to increase the speed of heating the mash, but eventually decided against it because I don't want to raise the mash temp too quickly. With a steam system, there is no scorching involved, but rather, heat shock to the enzymes could be a real concern.

 

[FlyGuy]

I've put my calcs in a spreadsheet, when I get home tonight I'll try to remember to post for comment.

That would be great. I would appreciate a copy (I have been too lazy to do it myself!).

I second the comments Joe made about adding salt to raise the boiling temperature, caustic salts will give you a nasty suprise when the inside of the pressure cooker dissolves.

Kladue, can you clarify what you meant in this comment? I am not sure what you mean by 'caustic' soda. It was my understanding that simply boiling table salt in tap water inside an aluminum pot will not lead to rapid corrosion, especially if the pot has developed a passive oxide layer. I am not sure what you mean by 'nasty surprises' and 'dissolving' the pot. I know you have considerable experience in this area, so I would appreciate any comments to elaborate. (BTW, I am not advocating salt additions, just curious about some of this discussion.)

 

[kladue]

Adding sodium bicarbonate to the water not sodium chloride is the problem, carbonates are generaly caustic which increases the potential for corrosion of aluminum if there are breaks in the oxide coating. Chlorides are hard on stainless steel even more so at elevated temperatures, not familiar with their impact on aluminum corrosion. The cleaner the water and the lower the free oxygen dissolved in the water the the better for steam production equipment.

 

[Joe Camel]

Adding sodium bicarbonate to the water not sodium chloride is the problem, carbonates are generaly caustic which increases the potential for corrosion of aluminum if there are breaks in the oxide coating. Chlorides are hard on stainless steel even more so at elevated temperatures, not familiar with their impact on aluminum corrosion. The cleaner the water and the lower the free oxygen dissolved in the water the the better for steam production equipment.

I was more thinking about galvanic corrosion, most people are building these steam mashers with aluminum pots, brass needle valves and copper tubing. In the presence of an electrolyte like salt water, the aluminum will rot pretty fast (lowest on the galvanic series) at the threads holding the valve in place.

 

[Joe Camel]

Here's a link to the steam spreadsheet, the purple cells are modifiable to play with the results

spread sheet

 

[kladue]

The pressure cookers are a great device for what they were designed for but one needs to remember that they were built for under 15K btu burner input. If you greatly exceed that amount of heat input you might find out the hard way that the pressure relief valve could not keep when you slosh water against over heated sides of the cooker and have a container failure. When using the soft drawn copper tubing for steam connections be careful as heat cycling and bending of the tubing will harden it and will typically cause breakage at the connectors where the stress is the highest.

 

[shafferpilot]

Wow, we got a bunch of engineer types in here lately, huh.

I put a quarter on top of the relief valve to weigh it down and up the pressure in the cooker.

 

[Shay]

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2207206920026788845pHAUkE?vhost=good-times

I got lucky with my pressure cooker and was able to unscrew the pressure gauge and use the 1/8 threaded hole.

I found the 1/8 threaded tee, nipple, barb fitting and ball valve at Ace hardware. The high temp silicone tubing was from McMaster. Thanks to flyguy for the sku number!

What size copper tube did you use for your manifold? Did you sweat the barb on vertical pipe in this picture: http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2681787180026788845WplJXv ?

Thanks in advance.

 

[noisy123]

I am in the process of building one of these for my stovetop set up. I have a 24 qt pressure cooker.
Has anyone tried putting the steam infusion system in the wort for the boil? Wouldn't it give you an extra burner of heat to help with the roiling boil in large batches?

 

[Joe Camel]

Has anyone tried putting the steam infusion system in the wort for the boil? Wouldn't it give you an extra burner of heat to help with the roiling boil in large batches?

No, haven't tried that, but a lot of microbreweries use steam injection for their large kettles.

Yes and no, think of the pressure cooker as a storage device, you're storing heat as steam for later release, so theoretically you could release that heat into your boiling pot, but two things will happen.
1. you will need to heat a lot of water in the canner first, probably 10-12 qts to prevent it from running dry during the boil. This can take a lot of time, my 10000 btu propane burner takes close to an hour to bring 12L up to 20psi. It'll be a lot longer than that on a stovetop.
2. The amount of boil off you normally experience (~1 - 1.5 gallons per hour) will be almost exactly matched by the steam from your canner condensing in the pot, so you won't have a volume drop. You'll have to make sure you hit your volume and OG targets on your sparge.

If you're having trouble maintaining a rolling boil on your stove, you might be better served getting an outdoor burner or, if you're staying indoor, building a heatstick.

Cheers

 

[noisy123]

No, haven't tried that, but a lot of microbreweries use steam injection for their large kettles.

Yes and no, think of the pressure cooker as a storage device, you're storing heat as steam for later release, so theoretically you could release that heat into your boiling pot, but two things will happen.
1. you will need to heat a lot of water in the canner first, probably 10-12 qts to prevent it from running dry during the boil. This can take a lot of time, my 10000 btu propane burner takes close to an hour to bring 12L up to 20psi. It'll be a lot longer than that on a stovetop.
2. The amount of boil off you normally experience (~1 - 1.5 gallons per hour) will be almost exactly matched by the steam from your canner condensing in the pot, so you won't have a volume drop. You'll have to make sure you hit your volume and OG targets on your sparge.

If you're having trouble maintaining a rolling boil on your stove, you might be better served getting an outdoor burner or, if you're staying indoor, building a heatstick.

Cheers

To the extent heat is transfered by the steam, volume of water will be added. However, the stove-top will still be providing heat without introducing water so the evaporation rate will be substantially decreased only as the steam heat becomes the main source of heat in the system. Since I am only looking for a few degrees this shouldn't be a problem. The heat transfer rate is the kicker here, as the heat transfer becomes less efficient as the heat of the liquid approaches the heat of the steam. I still think it will work for a couple of degrees. This site provided some interesting details on the method:

Steam heating

I am able to achieve a low boil with a stove-top set-up, and I was going to build one of these anyway. I don't see the harm in dropping it into the pot to bump up the temp unless I lose the ability to decrease wort volume.

 

[Cookiebaggs]

What size copper tube did you use for your manifold? Did you sweat the barb on vertical pipe in this picture: http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2681787180026788845WplJXv ?

Thanks in advance.

I used 1/4 inch copper. And yes, I sweated the brass barb on to the manifold.

 

[Joe Camel]

Since I am only looking for a few degrees this shouldn't be a problem. The heat transfer rate is the kicker here, as the heat transfer becomes less efficient as the heat of the liquid approaches the heat of the steam. I still think it will work for a couple of degrees.

You're right that your wort level will drop as most of your energy will come from the element and not the steam. I think that the main sticking points are going to be efficiency and control. The steamer loses a ton of heat to radiation as aluminum is a very good conductor and for me, my steam injections have been pretty much binary, balls out or off. The needle valve seems to leak otherwise or I have the steam condensing in the line and wasting the energy.

If it's a matter of just a couple of degrees and you have a dedicated pot for boiling, you may want to read this link: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=53683&highlight=stove+insulation

It may serve you better in the long run

 

[noisy123]

You're right that your wort level will drop as most of your energy will come from the element and not the steam. I think that the main sticking points are going to be efficiency and control. The steamer loses a ton of heat to radiation as aluminum is a very good conductor and for me, my steam injections have been pretty much binary, balls out or off. The needle valve seems to leak otherwise or I have the steam condensing in the line and wasting the energy.

If it's a matter of just a couple of degrees and you have a dedicated pot for boiling, you may want to read this link: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=53683&highlight=stove+insulation

It may serve you better in the long run

Thanks Joe,
I think you are right with the insulating blanket. I already had the parts for that so I implemented it. I need some velcro for the connection and I'll be all set. I haven't tested it yet but I think it will work.

 

[noisy123]

Thanks for the help in getting me going on this.

 

[radamson]

There was earlier mention about injecting steam through the same manifold with which they lauter. I lauter from under a SS false bottom through 1/2" copper through my cooler bulkhead - does anyone think that steam coming IN this 1/2" tube and exiting under the false bottom might spread out and disperse into little(r) steam bubbles through the (std) holes in the false bottom? I don't think I'll get the desired results; I believe I'll have to drop in a steam injector "ring" or other structure, sitting above the false bottom. Right? Thanks.

 

[GNBrews]

Yeah, I think you'd need to put the manifold above the false bottom. There's a good chance you'd scorch the wort if it was placed underneath, as it would be a 'dead space'.

 

[Brew-ta-sauraus]

Question on this process, won't the addition of steam to your mash cause to much aeration?

 

[GNBrews]

The steam is is just water that's been turned to gas, there's no air. The bit of air that's in the boiler/cooker above the water line initially should be purged out shortly after the water begins boiling inside. You should always wait until the air is purged before sealing (placing the weight on the vent) and beginning the pressure increase.

 

[peteperez]

I was going to give the steam injected setup a try, had a couple questions:

Would you put the copper steam manifold under or on top of a false bottom?

When attaching the valve to the pressure cooker lid, did you bolt it on from underneath, with washers, or just screw it in?

Thanks!

 

[Joe Camel]

1. I'd put it above the false bottom so that it's heating an area you can mix easily. If you put it under the false bottom, the heat will probably boil the wort under there before you get the rest to temp.

2. The preexisting holes in the lid are all threaded, so teflon tape and screw it in, no bolts needed. If you have to drill your own hole, I'd tap it and go the teflon tape route as well.

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

FlyGuy - Do you ever have a problem with overshoot? I just finished my second steam mash ( 2.5 gal cooker) and have to really work to hit the temps.

This mash was 13 lbs on a 5 Gal batch, in a 10gal gott cooler, therm about 4 inches up.

During steaming, let's say from mash (155)->mashout (170), I turn on the steam (15psi) and wait for a minute or two, then start stirring until it hits the temp.

Sometimes it overshoots, then comes down. Other times it stays high. Not a problem on a mash out, but when doing a step mash it is tough.

Any suggestions?

 

[dstar26t]

You just have to take your time and stir constantly and vigorously.

 

[112358]

I remember reading that it is beneficial to have flow through the grain bed (similar to sparge, but recirculating wort). Would it be a reasonable idea to have a drain at the bottom of the mash vessel connected into the bottom of a vertical length of 3" cpvc (maybe 3' tall) and the top connected to a sparge arm. A steam jet aimed upwards inside the vertical section would provide the motive force and add heat. The wort would drain from the bottom by gravity, and be propelled up the steam tube vertically to enter the vessel again from the top. This may need a vent at the top so as to avoid pumping steam directly into the vessel and blowing the top.

This is similar to how a undergravel filter lift column in a fish tank works, only it uses air bubbles instead of steam bubbles.

This should evenly add heat to the whole vessel, as well as recirculate the wort and provide a dense, undisturbed grain bed.

Thoughts?
(I will draw up a picture if this description isnt clear enough ...)

 

[GNBrews]

The steam bubbles doing the pushing would easily heat the entrained water to over 170ºF, destroying the amylase. Also, the steam doesn't really come out of the manifold as a bubble, per se. As soon as it gets rid of it's heat, it collapses back to water. Air can make bubbles that go all the way to the top of the liquid because the nitrogen isn't soluble to any real degree.

 

[Joe Camel]

I remember reading that it is beneficial to have flow through the grain bed (similar to sparge, but recirculating wort). Would it be a reasonable idea to have a drain at the bottom of the mash vessel connected into the bottom of a vertical length of 3" cpvc (maybe 3' tall) and the top connected to a sparge arm. A steam jet aimed upwards inside the vertical section would provide the motive force and add heat. The wort would drain from the bottom by gravity, and be propelled up the steam tube vertically to enter the vessel again from the top. This may need a vent at the top so as to avoid pumping steam directly into the vessel and blowing the top.

This is similar to how a undergravel filter lift column in a fish tank works, only it uses air bubbles instead of steam bubbles.

This should evenly add heat to the whole vessel, as well as recirculate the wort and provide a dense, undisturbed grain bed.

Thoughts?
(I will draw up a picture if this description isnt clear enough ...)

There really isnt that much pressure at the end of the tube to provide this level of motive force, maybe only 2-5 psi. Plus, steam won't bubble and blow in this case, it collapses and releases heat.

 

[FlyGuy]

FlyGuy - Do you ever have a problem with overshoot? I just finished my second steam mash ( 2.5 gal cooker) and have to really work to hit the temps.

You just have to take your time and stir constantly and vigorously.

No, I don't have problems with overshoots. Just do like dstar suggests. Good mixing is the key.

I remember reading that it is beneficial to have flow through the grain bed (similar to sparge, but recirculating wort).

Absolutely. I have been modifying my system to do recirculation of the wort through the mash tun using a march pump for just that purpose.

I also added a larger (20L) pressure cooker, and I am in the process of building a stand for everything. Once I get it all finished (hopefully over Christmas break), I will post some pictures of the new system. I have dubbed it a SIRMS system (Steam Injected Recirculating Mash System).

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

Absolutely. I have been modifying my system to do recirculation of the wort through the mash tun using a march pump for just that purpose.

So, isn't this incredibly close to a RIMS system, except probably simpler? The wort is heated in the cooler (tun) and recirculated ?

 

[Jonnio]

So, isn't this incredibly close to a RIMS system, except probably simpler? The wort is heated in the cooler (tun) and recirculated ?

The biggest difference, and advantage imo, is that in a standard RIMS your heating plain wort and adding it to the grain bed to raise the bed temp. On the flipside this is heating the grain bed more directly, the recirculating just lets you worry less about stirring (maybe not stir at all???) and still gives the other advantages of a recirculating system.

So, yes, in general implementation it is similar to a RIMS.

 

[FlyGuy]

Yes, I agree -- this is conceptually similar to a RIMS system, but there are at least three distinct advantages.

First, you can use it in a cooler MLT, which has a number of advantages as a mash tun vessel. Of course, you can also use a HERMS system with a cooler mash tun, but they are rare and I don't think it would perform as well as a SIRMS.

Second, with a SIRMS there is no concern with scorching, unlike a conventional direct-fired RIMS setup (although don't get me wrong, a well-designed RIMS system won't scorch, but it should always be a consideration -- with SIRMS, there is no potential so it is not a concern).

Third, I think you will get more precise temperature control out of a SIRMS than a conventional direct-fired RIMS system. Temperature overshoots can occur in a RIMS if the vessel (e.g., a converted stainless steel keg) releases heat after the heat source (e.g., a propane burner) has been shut off. If you are using a SIRMS, the heat is applied directly to the mash and there is no additional source of latent heat.

Cheers!

 

[SHvanBommel]

I just finished mine with a 12QT pot... this is awesome.... i'm limited to 15PSI perhaps i want to go to like 25?

How come the hose fills back up with water when I shut the valve?

 

[Joe Camel]

When the steam in the line cools it creates a vacuum that pulls liquid from your tun

 

[SHvanBommel]

I figured thats what it had to be, is it worth worrying about a check valve at the entrance to the manifold?

 

[amishland]

More........... I have been reading about steam mash all vacation. cant wait to see the writeup on the SIRMS

I like the idea of a separate steam manifold.

Prost

 

[SHvanBommel]

yeah... today was supposed to be my first step mash, ended up being a single infusion...

 

[Joe Camel]

it's nothing I'd be too worried about but if you're really concerned, just make a vacuum break near the high point on the hose. slide a 2" piece of tubing that has the same id as your tubing's od, so it's a tight fit. Drill one small hole near the high point of the steam tubing and slide the small piece over the hole. This will create a seal while you're steaming, then slide the tubing down to expose the hole after you shut off the steam. This will vent the vacuum, but will put air back in your steam line.

 

[psi3000]

Flyguy, I am very confused. I printed out a list of the parts you bought to go to the hardware store and build my own. However, in your list you said you use a 1/4" copper T-junction fitting. In your Post you said (which would be a part on the list you left out) "I bent 3/8" tubing around a small pot to form a loop. I sweated a T junction to complete the loop." Your list mentioned nothing about the 3/8 copper to make the circle in the MLT. So you used a 1/4" T fitting with 3/8" copper tubing and how in the heck did you stretch 1/4" silicone tubing around 3/8" copper. I am almost sure this is something that I am overlooking as no one has seemed to bring it up in your post. AWSOME efficient build though.

P.S. I love tying fly's, just got back into it after 8 years. I fish in MD,DE, PA area.

 

[FlyGuy]

Yes, that is correct. Fittings and pipe are measured using a different standard than soft tubing (one measures the inner diameter while the other is outer diameter). So yes, 3/8" tubing will fit in a 1/4" tee-fitting.

And silicone tubing is STRETCHY stuff. 1/4" ID silicone tubing will easily fit onto 3/8" copper tubing. You want it to be snug.

I believe that is all correct! If not, someone else will correct me if I am wrong, hopefully.

I love fly-tying as well. Like brewing, I haven't done much of it in the last 8 months though, due to my wife and I being swamped with work.

Cheers!

 

[psi3000]

Where do you get that silicone tubing? The only thing i can find at home depot or lowes is stuff that looks like that but it says poly-something or other.

 

[FlyGuy]

I got mine at McMaster-Carr, but I think Morebeer or other online HBS might sell it as well. I never had any luck finding it at home repair places, including plumbing shops.