Easy Steam Infusion Mash System

[Hopleaf]

Picked up an 8 quart pressure cooker tonight at Wal-Mart. Opened it up when I got home and it was very used... bottom had tons of scorch and scratch marks. Looks like someone bought it, did a ton of canning and returned it. Sigh, back in the car I go.

 

[WortMonger]

Ahhh, wonderful Wally World. Isn't there a place named U.S.A., China or something that they get all of their Made In The U.S.A. stuff from, lol?

 

[MadWeezel]

Ahhh, wonderful Wally World. Isn't there a place named U.S.A., China or something that they get all of their Made In The U.S.A. stuff from, lol?

Yes U.S.A., China its just north of hong kong, China.

 

[kvh]

This seems like a great idea, and I have intentions to build one.

However, I have a question.

In my mind, when I pictured this working, I imagined the steam-release valve somehow connected to the hose and therefore the MLT. This way you would build up pressure in the cooker (as they are intended), and then open the valve to stir and heat the mash.

It looks instead like the valve is always open, and you control the steam by turning on/off the cooker. Is this the case?

thx.
kvh.

 

[FlyGuy]

In my mind, when I pictured this working, I imagined the steam-release valve somehow connected to the hose and therefore the MLT. This way you would build up pressure in the cooker (as they are intended), and then open the valve to stir and heat the mash.

It looks instead like the valve is always open, and you control the steam by turning on/off the cooker. Is this the case?

No, I don't always leave the valve open. You do need it to control the flow of steam.

The way you envisioned it working is correct. Fire up the pressure cooker, let it get to full temp/pressure, vent out the air, then close the valve and keep it hot until you need it. Then open the valve and push steam into the MLT as required.

Cheers!

 

[kvh]

No, I don't always leave the valve open. You do need it to control the flow of steam.

The way you envisioned it working is correct. Fire up the pressure cooker, let it get to full temp/pressure, vent out the air, then close the valve and keep it hot until you need it. Then open the valve and push steam into the MLT as required.

Cheers!

So the MIP angle valve stops the pressure - I guess I should have realized since it has the word valve in it. I have a little more research to do I suppose.

thanks!

kvh.

 

[Hopleaf]

Here's a question, do you use steam to raise the temp of the water from tap temp up to the needed temps? Or just use steam to control the temp once it's reached those temperatures?

 

[FlyGuy]

In theory, you could use stem to heat your mash and sparge water, but it wouldn't be as efficient as direct heat. The steam injection is most useful for raising mash temps, especially in something like a cooler MLT that can't be directly heated.

 

[kvh]

Sorry to keep pestering you -

Do you (or does anyone) have a direct link to that valve you use? (the 1/4 x 1/8 angle MIP steam valve). I checked the watts website, mcmaster, and google in general.

Usually I'm good at tracking parts down - failing miserably at this one though.
thanks for your help.
kvh.

 

[mr x]

If you have problems getting what you want, I can supply you with some good swagelok parts (see my earlier post with pic links) for a good price.

 

[Hopleaf]

mr x - I have the same igloo cooler as you and have planned a similar manifold. I'm not using it with the steam though as you are.

Question about where you cut the slots in the manifold? Did you just put them in the outer bent pieces or did you also put them on the center pieces?

I think I should have everything pulled together in the next few days and hope to brew first all-grain this weekend

 

[mr x]

I made the cuts on the inside of the outer sections, and on the inside cross members, I cut them on one side only and aimed them in different directions (mainly for steam injection purposes)

 

[Hopleaf]

OK, thanks. Btw, how is your efficiency with it? I'm wondering if I should of stuck with the more rectangular shape cooler.

 

[mr x]

Efficiency was off the scale on my first batch. I crushed pretty fine and calculated a very high efficiency when I was done.

 

[FlyGuy]

Sorry to keep pestering you -

Do you (or does anyone) have a direct link to that valve you use? (the 1/4 x 1/8 angle MIP steam valve). I checked the watts website, mcmaster, and google in general.

Usually I'm good at tracking parts down - failing miserably at this one though.
thanks for your help.
kvh.

No, I don't have an online source. Sorry. Home Depot and most other similar places are likely to carry it, though. I was in two such stores today and both had them.

 

[kvh]

I'll keep a look out - thanks.

kvh.

 

[Cookiebaggs]

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2207206920026788845pHAUkE?vhost=good-times

I got lucky with my pressure cooker and was able to unscrew the pressure gauge and use the 1/8 threaded hole.

I found the 1/8 threaded tee, nipple, barb fitting and ball valve at Ace hardware. The high temp silicone tubing was from McMaster. Thanks to flyguy for the sku number!

 

[Red Clay]

I also scored on the pressure cooker on Craigslist. Now that canning is winding down in some parts of the country you might be able to get a really good canning pressure cooker at a good price. I paid $60 for a 20qt All-American pressure cooker.

The All-American's don't need to be tapped. You can just screw in a T between the pressure gage and the lid for your valve. I got all my parts at HD. I just used the valve from the tap-kit for ice-maker water lines.

 

[Philip1993]

I think your biggest challenge will be finding a motor at the right RPM with enough torque. It would probably be easiest to find a higher RPM motor and use a pulley/gear system to increase the torque and decrease the RPM.

What is your design for the mixing spoon/arm/blade?

What about taking the motor/paddle from an electric ice cream churn. Slow, high torque, and comes with a paddle.

 

[GNBrews]

Those of you who use steam for 5gal batches: How much water does your pressure vessel need for raising the temp of an average batch doing a protein rest? I've got a 23 qt pressure canner at my disposal, but would rather not waste energy heating the full 5+ gallons of capacity if not necessary.

Thanks!

 

[FlyGuy]

My pressure cooker is less than 6 litres (1.5 gals), and it had plenty of steam for both a protein rest and a mash-out. I would guess that you would only need a gallon or so in that pot of yours.

 

[GNBrews]

Thanks FlyGuy! Do you use two separate heat sources when you brew (one or the sparge water, one for the pressure cooker)?

 

[FlyGuy]

Yes, but just for convenience. If indoors, I use the stovetop with multiple burners. If outside, I have a large propane burner for the boil kettle and a smaller one for the pressure cooker. I suppose you could get by with swapping pots on one burner, but it would be a PITA.

 

[RokGoblin]

I am by no means an engineer or expert with steam, but wouldn't orienting your steam manifold in a vertical fashion with the vents pointing say at a 45deg angle (instead of straight out) from the side wall of the mash tun introduce a steam pressure induced "stir" of the mash?

I thought of doing this with the pressure cooker setup and my current CPVC drain and sparge manifold. Is there any reasons why I would NOT want to use a combination of steam and CPVC for drain manifold? I envision keeping the outlets for the steam far enough away from the CPVC so that it should not melt. Any suggestions?

Here is my current setup which I recently finished.

 

[FlyGuy]

I am by no means an engineer or expert with steam, but wouldn't orienting your steam manifold in a vertical fashion with the vents pointing say at a 45deg angle (instead of straight out) from the side wall of the mash tun introduce a steam pressure induced "stir" of the mash?

Steam pressure at the source is only about 10 psi, so no, it isn't enough to stir your mash, unfortunately. The mash is just too thick and heavy for the steam pressure to move it around in the MLT.

I thought of doing this with the pressure cooker setup and my current CPVC drain and sparge manifold. Is there any reasons why I would NOT want to use a combination of steam and CPVC for drain manifold? I envision keeping the outlets for the steam far enough away from the CPVC so that it should not melt.

I am not sure exactly what you are asking, but I think you are wondering whether you could inject steam through your existing manifold. I suspect the heat might warp it, but even if it didn't, I think the slots on the manifold are too large to maintain any steam pressure, and all the steam would escape through the first few slits it encountered in the mash tun. You need something with smaller holes to restrict the outflow and maintain some pressure so that you get an even release of steam throughout the steam manifold. There are just too many large openings in a CPVC lauter manifold to do this, I would think.

 

[RokGoblin]

Steam pressure at the source is only about 10 psi, so no, it isn't enough to stir your mash, unfortunately. The mash is just too thick and heavy for the steam pressure to move it around in the MLT.

Yea I thought the thickness of the mash and low pressure would not be enough...wishful thinking. thanks.

I am not sure exactly what you are asking, but I think you are wondering whether you could inject steam through your existing manifold. I suspect the heat might warp it, but even if it didn't, I think the slots on the manifold are too large to maintain any steam pressure, and all the steam would escape through the first few slits it encountered in the mash tun. You need something with smaller holes to restrict the outflow and maintain some pressure so that you get an even release of steam throughout the steam manifold. There are just too many large openings in a CPVC lauter manifold to do this, I would think.

Sorry I wasn't very clear. :cross: I was not wanting to use the CPVC to deliver the steam, as I am certain it would not withstand that. I wanted to know if I were able to use a vertically oriented (copper) steam manifold design rather than the circular ring in teh bottom since I already have a CPVC manifold (false bottom). If so, how far should I keep the steam manifold outlets from the CPVC to avoid any potential melting (and certain disaster to my mash).

Edit - another afterthought...how abotu making a ring type steam manifold that you can suspend in the middle (or thereabouts) of the mash with outlets pointing inward in varying directions? That might distribute the steam a little better than a single vertical oriented delivery manifold design.

 

[shafferpilot]

The orientation isn't terribly important. The steam condenses as soon as it hits the grist. You have no choice but to stir to distribute the heat. BTW I use about a gallon of water in the pressure cooker to get from mash-in 70F to mash-out 170F

 

[Cookiebaggs]

My copper steam manifold has small feet on it that allows it to sit above my SS collection braid.





After mashout, I use the high temp hose to pull the steam manifold out of the tun before starting the sparge.

 

[Atl300zx]

Now i like this idea. thanks!!!

 

[GNBrews]

Check out Gary's setup:

http://www.spykman.com/simm/simm.html

 

[FlyGuy]

Yeah, that's a rockin' system. Stirring the mash is the one pain in my system, and I admire the features of Gary's setup.

But I think I have basically solved this stirring and heat difussion problem by simply adding a pump to recirculate the wort, much like one would do with a RIMS system. I have the system all put together (I call it a SIRMS system), and when I get the chance I am going to write it all up. The nice thing about my SIRMS setup is that it is the essence of simplicity -- nothing much to build and the cost is still very low.

 

[mr x]

You stole my idea. I'm going to do the same thing eventually. I'm interested to see your set-up when you're done.

 

[badsneaker]

I used a 22 qt Mirro cooker with 1/2 copper manifold. Going through a "dry" run it took around 15 minutes to raise the temp from 140 to 170. The biggest thing for me was how long it took to build up pressure in the cooker- 30 to 45 minutes. I filled the cooker about 1/2 full. I did notice that I only used about a quart of water to simulate the step mash and mash out temps. From what I've been reading here, I will probably use less. So maybe I don't need to fill the cooker with that much water...

I was wondering, from anyone who has mashed using a pressure cooker, has anyone noticed any reactions with water heated in an aluminum pot being introduced as steam in the mash?

You folks have posted great ideas! Looking at Gary Spykman's setup, I got some upgrading to do!!

Thanks!

 

[shafferpilot]

The aluminum pot is a non-issue. I've found that using more water in the pressure cooker is preferrable, as the water stores energy for you. What I mean is that when you go from one temp to the next, when you first open the valve, there is a lot of steam and pressure that works quickly. Then when the pressure drops, the heating happens much more slowly. The more water in the cooker, the bigger that initial burst is. Are you using an electric stove? With my turkey fryer burner, it takes only minutes to get the cooker up to temp.

 

[badsneaker]

I am using a gas stove, but we are on propane (natural gas isn't available around here yet). Makes perfect sense, though, that more water produces more pressure.

I wonder if adding a small amount of salt to raise the boiling point of the water and thus the pressure would be useful. For that matter, so would sugar or baking soda. I think I'm going to experiment...

Thanks!!

 

[Joe Camel]

I would not recommend putting anything in your water, the salt, and certainly the sugar will likely gum up the safety valve operation
The temperature in your pressure cooker at pressure is the boiling point of the water in there (250F at 15psi) adding salt will not affect this to any great extent.

 

[RodfatherX]

I am using a gas stove, but we are on propane (natural gas isn't available around here yet). Makes perfect sense, though, that more water produces more pressure.

I wonder if adding a small amount of salt to raise the boiling point of the water and thus the pressure would be useful. For that matter, so would sugar or baking soda. I think I'm going to experiment...

Thanks!!

I actually PMed flyguy about that........the salt would raise the boiling temp depending on how much you add........and all the salt would stay in the pressure cooker. So, the salt leaving the pot is a non issue .......just like in water desalination. I'm sure there is some formula to figure out how much salt would need to be in solution in order to raise the temp a given amount.

 

[Joe Camel]

I'm putting together a steam mashing system along the lines of Flyguy's initial design, nothing too fancy, just does the trick well.

Here's where my thinking led me. The pressure cooker is essentially a capacitor, but instead of storing electricity for release, it's holding heat. Knowing your batch size and grainbill, you can calculate how much energy is required to ramp the mash between temperatures.
From that number you can calculate how much steam you'll need but also how much water you'll need to generate the steam. At 121C, you need about 30mL of water for every mL of steam you need to produce if there's no external heat source. The more hot water you have, the less likely you'll have to stop in the middle and build up more pressure. Conversely, the bigger the burner you have, the less water you need in the cooker.

I've put my calcs in a spreadsheet, when I get home tonight I'll try to remember to post for comment.

 

[Joe Camel]

I actually PMed flyguy about that........the salt would raise the boiling temp depending on how much you add........and all the salt would stay in the pressure cooker. So, the salt leaving the pot is a non issue .......just like in water desalination. I'm sure there is some formula to figure out how much salt would need to be in solution in order to raise the temp a given amount.

Yes, and no, the salt should stay in the pressure cooker, but there will always be aerosol generation as the water boils. Hot salty water in the presense of different types of metals in contact is a recipe for corrosion and add pressure to the mix, I shudder.

Salt will raise the boiling point by 0.5C for every 58g added to a liter of water, you can do better than that by going from 10psi to 15 on the gauge, it's not worth the risk IMHO.

 

[kladue]

I second the comments Joe made about adding salt to raise the boiling temperature, caustic salts will give you a nasty suprise when the inside of the pressure cooker dissolves. If you are trying to raise the steam temperature you need to raise pressure or add addtional heat to the steam after it leaves the pressure cooker (superheating). Some folks have done this by placing a coil of copper tube in the burner flame and passing the steam from the cooker through the tube to raise the temperature. It is more a function of quantity of steam condensation than steam temperature in heating applications, so increasing temperature does less than increasing the steam flow.