Consistently disappointed with hop aroma

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MrEggSandwich

MrEggSandwich

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I’m sure there are a thousand threads on this, but what the hell...

Sitting here sampling a NE IPA that I kegged on Friday night..(early, I know) but can’t help to think I am once again underwhelmed by hop aroma. I’m sure being under carbed isn’t helping, but this is consistent with my IPAs/Hoppy beers.

-I add salts and use Water calc for mash ph...

-20 minute whirlpool at 180 with **** ton of el dorado, Citra, and Apollo- I’m getting nada.

-closed pressure transfer with Co2 (which hasn’t make a lick of difference first two times I have done it)...seems like a giant pain in the ass.

-fresh 2016/2017/2018 crop hops from Yakima Valley. Stored in freezer, vacuum sealed (re sealed after every use)

-Conan Yeast from Omega. 78% attenuation. (1.066-1.014)

Don’t get me wrong, I’ll like this beer more later this week, but I really should be getting more “pop”, right?

Thanks!
 
you still use hops? :)


But i have a similar problem, and posting to this thread is the easiest way to watch it.....(or now that i look at the screen, maybe not...lol)
 
- Define "poopy ton" wrt dry hopping.
- Also, when are you adding the dry hops wrt pitching the yeast, and how many rounds.
- Finally, next try, drop the whirlpool temperature to 150°F or so before adding the hops to help preserve more volatile (read: aroma) characters. And if you were counting on significant IBUs from WP hops, make them up earlier...

Cheers!
 
What kind of Hop forward are you looking for? Ranger? Double Hop Sierra?
What is your Hop addition at Boil, weight and time?
What is the % acid of your hop.
The Hop you are dry hopping with, quantity, acid level, type when do you add for how long?
PH of H20 of beer?
Yeast?

So many factors to Hop forward(s).

I've found my best hop forward(s) with lower PH, 2oz at start of Boil, sometimes before start of boil. Late additions at last 20, 15, 5 and an oz 3 days into ferment.
Yeast I use is SAF 05 dry
 
Was going for Focal Banger type thing...misses my #s efficiency sucked (61%)...target og was 1.070, but just wanted a 7ish % IPA. That’s what I got...

I think it a solid recipe.

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Specialty IPA: New England IPA
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 7 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 9.8 gallons

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.066
Final Gravity: 1.014
ABV (standard): 6.8%
IBU (tinseth): 153.96
SRM (morey): 4.77
Mash pH: 5.34

FERMENTABLES:
12.5 lb - Pearl (64.3%)
5.5 lb - Pilsner (28.3%)
1 lb - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (5.1%)
7 oz - Acidulated Malt (2.3%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Apollo, Type: Pellet, AA: 16, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 43.58
1 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 7.2, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 3.91
2 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 13.1, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 14.22
2 oz - El Dorado, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.6, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 15.85
3 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 13.1, Use: Whirlpool for 0 min at 190 °F, IBU: 28.03
3 oz - El Dorado, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.6, Use: Whirlpool for 0 min at 190 °F, IBU: 31.24
1 oz - Apollo, Type: Pellet, AA: 16, Use: Whirlpool for 0 min at 190 °F, IBU: 17.12
3 oz - El Dorado, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.6, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
3 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 13.1, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 150 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 11.6 gal
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
14 g - Calcium Chloride, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
6 g - Gypsum, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash

YEAST:
Omega Yeast Labs - DIPA Ale OYL-052
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 76%
Flocculation: Medium-low
Optimum Temp: 65 - 72 F
Fermentation Temp: 68 F
Pitch Rate: 1.0 (M cells / ml / deg P)

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: 6308
Ca2: 100
Mg2: 3
Na: 4
Cl: 150
SO4: 75
HCO3: 82
Water Notes:
 
Dry hopped for 5 days at 66 degrees. +2 weeks is when hops were added. Pellet hops in bags. I’ve used shot glasses in past to weigh bags down. (That hasn’t helped)
 
What's your carbonation like? I didn't really think much about it until I entered a competition and the feedback was "glad the carbonation was high, the great hop combination jumped out at me". It was pure luck but ever since I tend to slightly overcarbonate NEIPAs.
 
MGamber said:
What's your carbonation like? I didn't really think much about it until I entered a competition and the feedback was "glad the carbonation was high, the great hop combination jumped out at me". It was pure luck but ever since I tend to slightly overcarbonate NEIPAs.
Click to expand...

I have it at 12 psi since Friday. Starting to carb up nicely, usually medium carb...
 
Perplexing that should "hop" out of the tap... I would not think it is very bitter due to the time you add the hops, the only one that looks like it would give that Hop bitter(s) is the 60 minuter...which will allow the AA to come forward.
 
It sure looks like you're doing everything right for that style. All I can think of is that it was an early sample. Also, don't get hung up on trying to duplicate the greats of the style. Closed transfers helped out my beer quite a bit and sometimes I can smell it as soon as I start pouring but most times that's not the case. I figure it's the difference between a dude brewing in his garage versus a million dollar brewery.
 
I'm no expert but chloride at 150 seems high for a hop forward beer. Also dry hopping with bags after fermentation is complete might be introducing a lot of oxygen that doesn't get consumed by active yeast. Could try adding a cup of sugar with your dry hop, or better yet try to time the dry hop just at the end of fermentation.

Do the hops smell fresh out of the freezer?
 
Yeah, there's ^that^ to consider, but the OP sampled the young beer barely four days after racking.
Unless he did a truly horrible job of that I wouldn't think hop aroma could attenuate that much so quickly...

Cheers!
 
tripeland said:
I'm no expert but chloride at 150 seems high for a hop forward beer. Also dry hopping with bags after fermentation is complete might be introducing a lot of oxygen that doesn't get consumed by active yeast. Could try adding a cup of sugar with your dry hop, or better yet try to time the dry hop just at the end of fermentation.

Do the hops smell fresh out of the freezer?
Click to expand...

High Chloride/Lower Sulfate is common for the NEIPA style. Hops smell fine.
 
MrEggSandwich said:
I have it at 12 psi since Friday. Starting to carb up nicely, usually medium carb...
Click to expand...

12psi at serving temperature for 4 days is basically very low carbonation unless you did a force carb shaking the kegs or something similar. Set and forget it will take minimum 2 weeks to get a decent carb. However by that time if you have any oxygen issues the hops will start to fade. I don't like shaking the kegs so I set my PSI to about 40 for 24 hours and then reduce to 12 for another 24 hours before tasting. Still takes another 3-4 days to get the carbonation really integrated with the beer but its pretty good.

I didn't see an answer on how you purged the keg. Full starsan push with CO2? [edited I see your response now]

Has the beer changed color at all? If it is darkening especially turning brownish consensus seems to be this would be indication of oxygen issues with NEIPA.
 
Just to cover bases, did you have your water tested before you started adjusting the profile? Or maybe using distilled/RO water?

Also, what temperature are you serving and tasting the beer? I often don't get the aroma flavors I'm looking for until the beer warms up.
 
eric19312 said:
12psi at serving temperature for 4 days is basically very low carbonation unless you did a force carb shaking the kegs or something similar. Set and forget it will take minimum 2 weeks to get a decent carb. However by that time if you have any oxygen issues the hops will start to fade. I don't like shaking the kegs so I set my PSI to about 40 for 24 hours and then reduce to 12 for another 24 hours before tasting. Still takes another 3-4 days to get the carbonation really integrated with the beer but its pretty good.

I didn't see an answer on how you purged the keg. Full starsan push with CO2? [edited I see your response now]

Has the beer changed color at all? If it is darkening especially turning brownish consensus seems to be this would be indication of oxygen issues with NEIPA.
Click to expand...

Will post photo later.
 
lump42 said:
Just to cover bases, did you have your water tested before you started adjusting the profile? Or maybe using distilled/RO water?

Also, what temperature are you serving and tasting the beer? I often don't get the aroma flavors I'm looking for until the beer warms up.
Click to expand...

Yes. Have had it tested 2x by Ward Labs....Very neutral well water. As far as serving, I will pour, and let it sit for a bit.

pH 7.7
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 98
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.16
Cations / Anions, me/L 1.8 / 1.6

ppm Sodium, Na 4
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 28
Magnesium, Mg 3
Total Hardness, CaCO3 83
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.4 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 3
Chloride, Cl 3
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 82
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 67
Total Phosphorus, P < 0.01
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01 "<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit
 
I know it's supposed to have a high chloride:sulfate ratio. You could try taking a pint and adding a small pinch of gypsum to drop the ratio towards balanced or hoppy, just to see if that opens up the aroma. I don't expect it to, but may be something just to rule out as an issue.
 
Water shouldn’t really have that much to do with hop aroma honestly. It might amplify the flavor some but aroma not so much. The High Cl to So4 ratio is a bit of a myth in my opinion. The best versions of the style that I’ve had tested would not validate that statement. As long as you’re hitting your pH you should be fine.

Aroma is the first thing to go when the beer is exposed to oxygen. Beer might not appear or taste oxidized but less than ideal hop aroma is usually a tell tale sign.

Sounds like you’re purging your keg well, so that’s good. Lines too I’d assume?

Beer is definitely not carbed enough at 4 days and aroma goes up as the carbonation goes up.

For more explosive aroma you need to dry hop with the least amount of yeast in the beer as possible. The oils just stick to the yeast when it floccs.

If you don’t have the ability to cold crash and dump yeast like in a conical this is the process I think that works the best.

Pick a highly flocculent yeast, 1968 works great as you don’t need to cold crash it to get it to flocc. If you think you need to dry hop during fermentation add a small amount at the very end. Wait until the yeast has flocced. Force transfer to a well purged keg with well purged lines. Use the dip tube screen method that Scott Janish used. When the keg is full, attach Co2 to the gas in and start filling the head space with Co2 while you take the lid off, dump hops in loose as fast as possible, put the lid back on, purge head space and leave 5-10 psi head pressure for as long as you like to dry hop. I personally don’t like to leave the beer on the hops for that long so I’ll cold crash and transfer to another well purged keg and carbonate in that. It’s a pain but you’ll get great aroma and flavor as long as you’re really careful about eliminating any O2.
 
couchsending said:
Water shouldn’t really have that much to do with hop aroma honestly. It might amplify the flavor some but aroma not so much. The High Cl to So4 ratio is a bit of a myth in my opinion. The best versions of the style that I’ve had tested would not validate that statement. As long as you’re hitting your pH you should be fine.

Aroma is the first thing to go when the beer is exposed to oxygen. Beer might not appear or taste oxidized but less than ideal hop aroma is usually a tell tale sign.

Sounds like you’re purging your keg well, so that’s good. Lines too I’d assume?

Beer is definitely not carbed enough at 4 days and aroma goes up as the carbonation goes up.

For more explosive aroma you need to dry hop with the least amount of yeast in the beer as possible. The oils just stick to the yeast when it floccs.

If you don’t have the ability to cold crash and dump yeast like in a conical this is the process I think that works the best.

Pick a highly flocculent yeast, 1968 works great as you don’t need to cold crash it to get it to flocc. If you think you need to dry hop during fermentation add a small amount at the very end. Wait until the yeast has flocced. Force transfer to a well purged keg with well purged lines. Use the dip tube screen method that Scott Janish used. When the keg is full, attach Co2 to the gas in and start filling the head space with Co2 while you take the lid off, dump hops in loose as fast as possible, put the lid back on, purge head space and leave 5-10 psi head pressure for as long as you like to dry hop. I personally don’t like to leave the beer on the hops for that long so I’ll cold crash and transfer to another well purged keg and carbonate in that. It’s a pain but you’ll get great aroma and flavor as long as you’re really careful about eliminating any O2.
Click to expand...

I typically don't cold crash as suck back becomes an issue, right? So this could be part of it.
 
not to high jack, but...how many times should a person vent a keg to properly purge it? say, at 8 psi on the regulator?
 
MrEggSandwich said:
I typically don't cold crash as suck back becomes an issue, right? So this could be part of it.
Click to expand...

Exactly, that’s why the highly flocculent yeasts are good cause you don’t need to crash them to get get them to flocc. 002/1968 will go clear at fermentation temps. Issue with this yeasts is you need to make sure you can keep the temp at 66 or under. They ferment super fast and create a lot of heat and can get really weird even at 68. There are plenty of people that use the balloon method or have devised other ways to maintain positive pressure while crashing. Probably the biggest benefit to even the chronicals. They can only handle about 2-3 psi but it’s enough to keep O2 out when crashing to at least moderate temps.

The more yeast you can get out of the beer before dry hopping the more explosive the aroma will be. Just gotta keep o2 pickup to a minimum.
 
couchsending said:
They can only handle about 2-3 psi but it’s enough to keep O2 out when crashing to at least moderate temps.
Click to expand...

I see mention of 2-3 PSI for crashing a lot, but the fact is that you do not NEED that much. Even 0.5 psi is more than enough. All you need is something so that when the beer contracts, it pulls in CO2 instead of air. CO2 at any pressure will do it. I use 0.5 psi during my crashes and yeast and hop dumps and it is plenty to make up the volume of beer that's lost. I can clearly hear the regulator hiss as I dump and no air gets sucked into the dump valve which definitely happens if the 0.5 psi of CO2 is not on the fermenter. I'm only mentioning dumping here because the volume lost during dumping is so much more than the volume of beer that contracts during crashing. 2-3 psi is fine, but any pressure above or below that will also work.
 
couchsending said:
Exactly, that’s why the highly flocculent yeasts are good cause you don’t need to crash them to get get them to flocc. 002/1968 will go clear at fermentation temps. Issue with this yeasts is you need to make sure you can keep the temp at 66 or under. They ferment super fast and create a lot of heat and can get really weird even at 68. There are plenty of people that use the balloon method or have devised other ways to maintain positive pressure while crashing. Probably the biggest benefit to even the chronicals. They can only handle about 2-3 psi but it’s enough to keep O2 out when crashing to at least moderate temps.

The more yeast you can get out of the beer before dry hopping the more explosive the aroma will be. Just gotta keep o2 pickup to a minimum.
Click to expand...

Word. I have the "Cold Crash Guardian" from Bobby @ Brewhardware. Didn't use it this time around...Will do next time.
 
MrEggSandwich said:
Dry hopped for 5 days at 66 degrees. +2 weeks is when hops were added. Pellet hops in bags. I’ve used shot glasses in past to weigh bags down. (That hasn’t helped)
Click to expand...

It could be due to the fact that you are dry hopping with pellets in bags. Shot glasses to weigh the hops down help, but you’re probably not getting the surface area contact necessary for good extraction unless you are using HUGE bags.

How compressed are the bags when you take them out after you keg?
 
Everyone seems to think that weighing a hop bag down helps, but I think it has the opposite effect. Think about it. The bag is being pulled from the bottom and top, effectively making the volume inside the bag near zero. I really believe that not weighing the bag is much better since the bag is allowed to free-float and the expanding hops are able to fill and expand the bag. Expanding hops is a bag that is pulled tightly from a weight in the bottom of it and a string on the top is not good.

Why do people weigh hop bags? Is it because they believe the hops won't sink if they're in a bag for some reason? They sink when they aren't in a bag, so they'll get submerged if they are in a bag. That being said, the best option is no bag at all.
 
MrPowers said:
It could be due to the fact that you are dry hopping with pellets in bags. Shot glasses to weigh the hops down help, but you’re probably not getting the surface area contact necessary for good extraction unless you are using HUGE bags.

How compressed are the bags when you take them out after you keg?
Click to expand...

I use grain socks for this batch. Two, each filled with 3 oz of pellets...Should be plenty of room to expand. There were not compressed..
 
It's got a nice carb on it now....tasting it...it's a nice danky with some fruity...No aroma...Would have thought the citra/el dorado fruitiness would come through a lot more considering large whirlpool and dry hop.
 

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Last edited:
I hate to say it, but for a NEIPA, it looks oxidized. Maybe the Pearl is contributing, but it just doesn't look right.
 
bracconiere said:
not to high jack, but...how many times should a person vent a keg to properly purge it? say, at 8 psi on the regulator?
Click to expand...

couchsending said:
Technically

11-12 times at 30 psi gets you close to zero O2 I believe.
Click to expand...

Data below assumes headspace starts out as all air. Volume of headspace does not matter, as it's based on volume/volume not total mass of remaining O2.

ppm O2 after purge chart-2.png
ppm O2 after purge table.png


Brew on :mug:
 

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