Cleaning...at the end of my rope

[thebigo]

I have been having a hard time cleaning these bottles and fermenter, spent so much time trying dozens of tips and techniques, days researching and looking up answers. I have done my homework but don't know where to go next.

I love seeing yeast live and flavors change, but this cleaning (with no success) is all very irritating (to be positive it's quite a learning experience)

I also just feel bad asking question after question on cleaning...so I am sorry if it is annoying.

Now that that I've vented:

1) I am not satisfied with the cleanliness of my bottles or fermenters.
-I have oxicleaned bottles to remove labels and clean
-then rinsed to remove scale (to no avail)
-I then tried soaking bottles in a vinegar solution (also tried star san) but there is still scale.
-then cleaned in PBW and that removed a lot of scale.
-then tried a bottle brush after PBW and after a weak acid solution (not much better)
-I have even tried a magic eraser on the outside of my fermenters for dried PBW and scale.

**After all this and more I took my spray bottle of star san and RO water and tried wiping the dried PBW off the outside of my fermenter. This did not work either.**

What am I doing wrong OR what am I to try next?
-am I doing things in the wrong order?
-am I doing the wrong things?
-should I get a camera?
-am I even on the right track?
-should I write a book?

I will try and find a camera to take pictures and I plan on going to my local home brew club. My next step is to try a PBW soak on my fermenter and give it some elbow grease once more.

This is all I can think of right now. I appreciate the advice you all have given me in the past and look forward to anything you can tell me now.

 

[Chris_Dog]

HOT rinse water does the trick for me.

 

[IwanaBrich]

When I have hard to remove "junk" in my bottles or fermenter, I just soak them in OxiClean for a few days. I'll even scrub the inside of them with a brush once or twice a day while they are soaking and that usually does the trick. That said I have thrown out a few 12 oz bottles that just would not come clean. I found Carboys such a pain to clean that I shifted to using a 7 gallon plastic bucket as my primary fermenter.

Are you sure the scale that you are seeing is the result of brewing? Could it be that you have very hard water and you are looking at the scale from the water?

 

[kladue]

Try dishwasher powder detergent instead of oxyclean, it is formulated to remove organic material and rinse clean after without leaving water marks. The principal ingredients are caustic soda, some phosphate compounds, a touch of calcium hypochlorite for sanitizing, and a metasilicate wetting/rinse agent. For a typical carboy 2 tablespoons in carboy full of hot water, 1-2 hour soak, rinse (brushing is usually not needed as yeast residue dissolves). The price is usually easier on the budget and you can usually appropriate it from the kitchen as needed, just convince SWMBO that a larger box would be more cost effective when shopping, or this would be a backup if the kitchen supply ran out.

 

[Cheaton]

Maybe its your water......... not your cleaning solutions.

 

[jds]

OP: Have you contacted your local utility for water reports? What you describe sounds a lot like hard water scale, which is simply a fact of life in some places. If you seriously want to remove hard water deposits from items, look into CLR. Be warned, though. CLR is strong stuff, and you'll want rubber gloves for working with it, and you'll need to rinse like hell after using it. It does cut hard water scale like nothing else, though.

 

[brew2you]

For my stubborn bottles and my glass carboys I use bleach. I just put some bleach with cold water in the carboy. I fill it to the top and in 3 or 4 days it is spottless. If there is a hard spot of dried yeast left (which I doubt) a bottle brush takes care of that. Same goes for the bottles. I mix the sink full of bleach water and soak bottles for several days. I use a bottle washer to rinse after the soak. Just make sure everything is rinsed real well to get rid of any bleach residue. I have never had a problem with the bleach affecting my beers. Hope this helps.

 

[Flyin]

+1 for the CLR.

I had a bunch of old glasses that were in bad shape... evap. rings & crusty coatings. tried every cleaner in the house & nothing. About a 5 min soak in CLR took everything off. just be sure to rinse several times after.

 

[Heckle]

Not sure if it would help but if the scale is on the inside of a bottle, try filling it about 1/4 with some hot water and adding some dry (uncooked) rice. Then swirl it around and it may remove the scale through friction/scrubbing type of action.

 

[thebigo]

When I have hard to remove "junk" in my bottles or fermenter, I just soak them in OxiClean for a few days. I'll even scrub the inside of them with a brush once or twice a day while they are soaking and that usually does the trick. That said I have thrown out a few 12 oz bottles that just would not come clean. I found Carboys such a pain to clean that I shifted to using a 7 gallon plastic bucket as my primary fermenter.

Are you sure the scale that you are seeing is the result of brewing? Could it be that you have very hard water and you are looking at the scale from the water?

It is the result of the cleaning solutions.

1) the fermenters were left with PBW solution in them for too long and developed a haze scale.

2) the bottles were left with oxy clean solution for 2 days in the tub and developed a powdery scale.

-wasn't the brewing. I'm getting to the point of throwing them out. But no...no...not yet.

 

[thebigo]

Try dishwasher powder detergent instead of oxyclean, it is formulated to remove organic material and rinse clean after without leaving water marks. The principal ingredients are caustic soda, some phosphate compounds, a touch of calcium hypochlorite for sanitizing, and a metasilicate wetting/rinse agent. For a typical carboy 2 tablespoons in carboy full of hot water, 1-2 hour soak, rinse (brushing is usually not needed as yeast residue dissolves). The price is usually easier on the budget and you can usually appropriate it from the kitchen as needed, just convince SWMBO that a larger box would be more cost effective when shopping, or this would be a backup if the kitchen supply ran out.

I heard that dishwashing detergents have a compound in them that leaves something to be desired. At this present moment I fail to think of the thread I read it on but will get back.

 

[thebigo]

OP: Have you contacted your local utility for water reports? What you describe sounds a lot like hard water scale, which is simply a fact of life in some places. If you seriously want to remove hard water deposits from items, look into CLR. Be warned, though. CLR is strong stuff, and you'll want rubber gloves for working with it, and you'll need to rinse like hell after using it. It does cut hard water scale like nothing else, though.

My TDS (total dissolved solids) in the tap water are ABOUT 330ppm, I have a green thumb and a TDS meter. I have not tried CLR and may be the next thing to try.

Before I try CLR I will try the bleach solution recommended since there is some in my bathroom.

Thank you ALL for you input. Time to experiment some more.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I cut the loop off of the bottle brush and use it with my drill...works great.

 

[kladue]

The popular legend is the metasilcate wetting agent to prevent spots will impact the head retention of the beer. If the carboy is drained and rinsed the residue that might be left behind is extremely small. I have been using the dishwasher detergent for quite a few years without any noticable complications, the largest problem was SWMBO "borrowing" the box and leaving me an empty box. Typical cleanup routine is rinse loose material out of carboy, throw 2 tablespoons detergent in carboy and fill with hot tap water. A 1 hour soak dissolved the yeast residue and after draining and a hot water rinse I put a rolled paper towel plug in the carboy opening to let residual water evaporate out and keep inside clean.

 

[thebigo]

So I did some measurements on my water and found that my cold tap water has TDS of 144ppm and the hot side (runs through the HWH) has TDS of 151. I got an RO system and put RO water in one fermenter and hot tap water in the other both with 1 oz of PBW. Seeing how that comes out but I noticed that if I use my fermenter brush the scale on the inside will come off with some serious scrubbing.

Looks like my solutions but will be back to report.

 

[remilard]

The popular legend is the metasilcate wetting agent to prevent spots will impact the head retention of the beer.

I imagine PBW has more sodium metasilicate than dishwashing detergent.

 

[thebigo]

So...the fermenter with RO water and PBW seems to have come clean and the other did not. I emptied the RO/PBW solution into the other fermenter and we will see if this was the solution (the RO water).

Also something to think about. The fermenter with the tap water and PBW clouded up after a few hours in the fermenter as the RO/PBW solution stayed clear.

Am I correct in thinking that since I am trying to remove mineral deposits (scale) that Ro water would allow the PBW to pull it off the walls of the fermenter?

With the tap water vice versa. Since there are minerals in the tap water it does NOT allow the PBW to pull the mineral deposits (scale) off the sides of the container?

 

[AnonyBrew]

Oxiclean works better with soft water (or RO). Hard water causes it to leave residue.

 

[remilard]

So...the fermenter with RO water and PBW seems to have come clean and the other did not. I emptied the RO/PBW solution into the other fermenter and we will see if this was the solution (the RO water).

Also something to think about. The fermenter with the tap water and PBW clouded up after a few hours in the fermenter as the RO/PBW solution stayed clear.

Am I correct in thinking that since I am trying to remove mineral deposits (scale) that Ro water would allow the PBW to pull it off the walls of the fermenter?

With the tap water vice versa. Since there are minerals in the tap water it does NOT allow the PBW to pull the mineral deposits (scale) off the sides of the container?

The more calcium and magnesium in the water, the stronger the PBW solution will need to be as more of the chelating agent is needed to bind the ions.

My tap water has more than 144 ppm TDS (although its really only the cations that matter) and with a relatively low soil load .5 ounces per gallon works fine for me.

 

[thebigo]

The more calcium and magnesium in the water, the stronger the PBW solution will need to be as more of the chelating agent is needed to bind the ions.

My tap water has more than 144 ppm TDS (although its really only the cations that matter) and with a relatively low soil load .5 ounces per gallon works fine for me.

Gotcha...so hard water uses up the chelating agents and leaves less to encapsulate the minerals on the glass.

It seems like the chelating agents are needed in addition to the surfactants to get the scale off. We'll see how all this goes with the other fermenter.

 

[thebigo]

Here we go...Have had some success with the fermenters. Remember all that scale on the interior of the fermenters I was telling you about? Got it removed without having to scrub.

SOLUTION: RO water
-->Used BOILED RO water with PBW and let sit over night

I had tried this technique with tap water about 2 times on each fermenter with no success.
Just got a large tupperware container (now I don't have to use my tub) and am going to try this technique with the dried on PBW and stains on the exterior (they won't come off with star san or a sponge and soap).

***I would like to weight the fermenters down so I do not also have to fill the inside and just use a carboy cap to seal the neck. (Since I am only cleaning the outsides now).***ANY SUGGESTIONS ON WEIGHTING THEM DOWN?