Chronic Foam Issue

[Colt85]

Hi fellas,

So I've been scanning this forum for quite some time now in hopes of solving my foam woes on my own. I've tried several suggestions, increasing beverage line length, closely monitoring temps and PSI levels, all to no avail. Hoping there's some glaring problem I'm missing here that you boys can point out for me.

Here's the setup: I built a two keg keezer in hopes of running a commercial and a homebrew keg at the same time. Corny keg is currently dispensing seltzer water (keeping the wife happy) but I'm on my 3rd D coupler commercial keg, each of which has had massive foam issues and I'm out of ideas. I increased beverage line length to 10 feet of 3/16 thick walled line coiled on top of the keg, fiddled with temperature settings until I've got a steady 38 at the top of the keg, and have tried a range of keg pressures from ~5-~15psi (I went that high in hopes of keeping CO2 in solution in the line). Foam is still every pour at 10 psi so I know it's not a tower cooling issue. If anyone has a bright idea I'd appreciate it!

~Jeremiah

 

[Buckeye_Phil]

We're the beer lines filled with sanitizer before pouring? If the line was not liquid filled, the tubing could have air pockets, which create pressure drop and turbulence, which in turn make foam.

 

[Colt85]

Thanks for the response, Phil!

No, I did not realize this was a necessary step. I've cleaned the lines several times, however I have never kept them full when reattaching to the keg. There are definitely air pockets in the lines. Is the only way to clear these bubbles by disconnecting the line, filling with sanitizer, and hooking back up?

 

[Eh_Modern_Drunkard]

I'm slightly confused, I didn't see any info on why it wouldn't be a tower cooling issue? It looks like your unit is on a front/back deck which would be a dramatic difference in beer to tower/tap temps.
Is it foaming in the lines, or only during the pour?

 

[stpug]

Is the only way to clear these bubbles by disconnecting the line, filling with sanitizer, and hooking back up?

You could try running enough beer through that the bubbles are pushed out. I have short 5' lines and drain them prior to connecting to corny keg. The beer that flows out easily clears the line of any bubbles within the first 4-6 oz of beer that goes into the glass.

As for your foamy issue, I'm wondering if the commercial keg is pressurized to some volumes much higher that is creating the foamy pours. I believe that bringing the temperature of the keezer down a couple degrees should help reduce the amount of foam, but you'll probably want to reduce the regulator pressure as well. Maybe just enough pressure to push the beer (2psi) but not enough to create any kind of pushing force. I'm just thinking out loud here.

Edit: ^^What the Eh_Drunk_Canadian said are very good points.

 

[Colt85]

I'm slightly confused, I didn't see any info on why it wouldn't be a tower cooling issue? It looks like your unit is on a front/back deck which would be a dramatic difference in beer to tower/tap temps.
Is it foaming in the lines, or only during the pour?

I've got the lines running through copper piping in the tower which dips down into the freezer. First pour temps are in the ~40 degree range, subsequent pours are 38. I can fill pitcher after pitcher of just foam. If it were tower cooling I'd assume subsequent pours would clear up. CO2 is definitely coming out of solution in the lines.

 

[MagicMatt]

I'm slightly confused, I didn't see any info on why it wouldn't be a tower cooling issue? It looks like your unit is on a front/back deck which would be a dramatic difference in beer to tower/tap temps.
Is it foaming in the lines, or only during the pour?

I agree, you didn't specify how you were cooling your tower, so I'm guessing this is definitely related to that issue.

 

[Colt85]

You could try running enough beer through that the bubbles are pushed out. I have short 5' lines and drain them prior to connecting to corny keg. The beer that flows out easily clears the line of any bubbles within the first 4-6 oz of beer that goes into the glass.

As for your foamy issue, I'm wondering if the commercial keg is pressurized to some volumes much higher that is creating the foamy pours. I believe that bringing the temperature of the keezer down a couple degrees should help reduce the amount of foam, but you'll probably want to reduce the regulator pressure as well. Maybe just enough pressure to push the beer (2psi) but not enough to create any kind of pushing force. I'm just thinking out loud here.

Edit: ^^What the Eh_Drunk_Canadian said are very good points.

Thanks for the input! I've experimented with dropping the temp to the 33-34 degree range for a few days, as well as trying psi's in the 2ish range, still the same thing. I've also disconnected the keg and completely purged the CO2 a few times over a couple days, then hooked back up at ~8psi in hopes of amending a possible over-carb issue. No change

 

[MagicMatt]

I've got the lines running through copper piping in the tower which dips down into the freezer. First pour temps are in the ~40 degree range, subsequent pours are 38. I can fill pitcher after pitcher of just foam. If it were tower cooling I'd assume subsequent pours would clear up. CO2 is definitely coming out of solution in the lines.

Sorry, didn't see your last post.

If you're positive that the CO2 is coming out in the lines, it sounds like there may be a leak then. A leak would definitely cause massive, inescapable head.

P.S. It shouldn't matter for this issue, but you want to more accurately control the temps at the bottom of the fridge since that's where the beer is pulled from. Adding a fan to circulate the air would be even better.

 

[day_trippr]

The first few seconds worth of pouring on a freshly tapped keg through "empty" lines will undoubtedly produce foam, but after that you should be good.

The fact that every pour - and by that I'm assuming the OP means back-to-back, not pours separated by 30 minutes - has the same problem pretty much eliminates tower cooling and even line temperature. And with 10' of 3/16" ID PVC tubing you should be in the ball park, resistance-wise, to hold the CO2 in the beer.

Depending on the commercial beer, it may be carbed to a higher level than what most of us use for our own brews. If the CO2 dispensing pressure is set too low given the dispensing temperature to maintain the original volumes of CO2, the difference will break out of solution.

So that's one important thing to know: how many volumes of CO2 is the beer you're buying carbed to?

Beyond that, I notice you have Perlick flow-control faucets. All other known factors considered as above, that raises a red flag. What settings on the flow-control valve have you tried using through all this?

Cheers!

[edit] If you are seeing CO2 in the beer line at the keg, the problem is either simple CO2 break-out because either the CO2 pressure is too low or the beer temperature is too high; or, analogous to a bad or missing Out Dip Tube o-ring on a corny keg, perhaps a Sanke coupler has a critical O-ring that if missing or damaged allows CO2 to escape the head space via the beer line connection (don't know enough about Sanke couplers either way)...

 

[Colt85]

Sorry, didn't see your last post.

If you're positive that the CO2 is coming out in the lines, it sounds like there may be a leak then. A leak would definitely cause massive, inescapable head.

P.S. It shouldn't matter for this issue, but you want to more accurately control the temps at the bottom of the fridge since that's where the beer is pulled from. Adding a fan to circulate the air would be even better.

Thanks Matt! A fan is in the works, yes.

Alright so if i've got a leak and atmospheric air is getting in at some connection, shouldn't beer be getting out? I've checked all my connections, they're dry. Am I mistaken about this?

 

[wysiwyg]

This is kind of a 'is it on?' question, but when dispensing are you opening the tap all the way? I've noticed excessive foam when people only open the tap part way.

 

[Colt85]

The first few seconds worth of pouring on a freshly tapped keg through "empty" lines will undoubtedly produce foam, but after that you should be good.

The fact that every pour - and by that I'm assuming the OP means back-to-back, not pours separated by 30 minutes - has the same problem pretty much eliminates tower cooling and even line temperature. And with 10' of 3/16" ID PVC tubing you should be in the ball park, resistance-wise, to hold the CO2 in the beer.

Depending on the commercial beer, it may be carbed to a higher level than what most of us use for our own brews. If the CO2 dispensing pressure is set too low given the dispensing temperature to maintain the original volumes of CO2, the difference will break out of solution.

So that's one important thing to know: how many volumes of CO2 is the beer you're buying carbed to?

Beyond that, I notice you have Perlick flow-control faucets. All other known factors considered as above, that raises a red flag. What settings on the flow-control valve have you tried using through all this?

Cheers!

[edit] If you are seeing CO2 in the beer line at the keg, the problem is either simple CO2 break-out because either the CO2 pressure is too low or the beer temperature is too high; or, analogous to a bad or missing Out Dip Tube o-ring on a corny keg, perhaps a Sanke coupler has a critical O-ring that if missing or damaged allows CO2 to escape the head space via the beer line connection (don't know enough about Sanke couplers either way)...

Thanks day trippr! Correct, continuous foam, even without a break (3 pitchers in a row).

Per the volumes of CO2 in the commercial keg I'm afraid I'm not sure. The first was dogfish head 90 min, the current is Ipswich 101 IPA. I used a carbonation table chart to set my regulator, 10 psi at 38 degrees to give the supposed sweet spot of 2.38 volumes.

I've tried increasing PSI to about 15 and leaving it for a few days in hopes of compensating for more carbonation and trying to keep the line pressures up but had no luck with that either.

If the problem is equipment/leak related, wouldn't beer be leaking out? All my connections are dry

 

[duboman]

If the co2 is coming out of solution in the lines then most likely the lines are dirty or there is a leak somewhere. Is it only the commercial kegs foaming. The psi needs to equalize with your system as well. When you have adjusted the various pressures have you bled off the co2 prior to serving or do you just keep changing the pressure without time for the system to equalize?

Have you tried to connect the keg to a different tap and get the same issue?

It's quite possible the keg is simply over carbonated

 

[djonesax]

Someone will correct me if I am wrong but here goes... 10' of line and going up 2 feet, I don't think even 15 PSI is enough and even if it was you would over carbonate causing more foam.

10' 3/16 ID line = approx 20 PSI drop
2' Elevation = approx 1 PSI drop

So you would need 21 PSI to be at 0 PSI at the tap.

Maybe try a 5' 3/16 ID line or smaller ID line like 1/4?

David

 

[day_trippr]

[...]
10' 3/16 ID line = approx 20 PSI drop

There's your problem right there...

You really need to visit our friend here...

Cheers!

 

[MagicMatt]

So you would need 21 PSI to be at 0 PSI at the tap.

Maybe try a 5' 3/16 ID line or smaller ID line like 1/4?

David

Don't do this. You'd be losing resistance. Line resistance decreases exponentially as flow rate decreases. This means there's zero need to try minimizing resistance. If anything, you're more likely to need to increase resistance, not decrease it.

If you're certain there's no leaks (I hear the sanke couplers can often be the source of a foam problem), the only other thing I can suggest is adding more line. Run 25-30ft of it between keg and tap. A 12psi push should give a nice slow (10-15 second), gentle pour. If that cuts down on your foam, the problem is the balance is off and your keg must be carbed higher than you think. You can start cutting lengths off of the 30ft until you reach your desirable pour speed/foam ratio. But honestly there really is no ill effect from leaving it at 30ft - just a slower pour (which could be a good thing).

 

[Buckeye_Phil]

To test the volumes of CO2 in the purchased keg, try the following:
1) put keg in keezer long enough for it to get to desired serving temp, disconnected from gas
2) dial pressure regulator down to very low pressure and connect to keg.
3) slowly dial up pressure regulator setting until you hear it barely start to flow. That is the equilibrium pressure in the keg.

If you want to serve at lower pressure than that, then you'll have to bleed pressure off gradually for a few days and let everything re-equilibrate. If that pressure is acceptable, then just leave it where it is.

 

[djonesax]

Don't do this. You'd be losing resistance. Line resistance decreases exponentially as flow rate decreases. This means there's zero need to try minimizing resistance. If anything, you're more likely to need to increase resistance, not decrease it.

If you're certain there's no leaks (I hear the sanke couplers can often be the source of a foam problem), the only other thing I can suggest is adding more line. Run 25-30ft of it between keg and tap. A 12psi push should give a nice slow (10-15 second), gentle pour. If that cuts down on your foam, the problem is the balance is off and your keg must be carbed higher than you think. You can start cutting lengths off of the 30ft until you reach your desirable pour speed/foam ratio. But honestly there really is no ill effect from leaving it at 30ft - just a slower pour (which could be a good thing).

@MagicMatt & @day_trippr

In my system, I have a 10.45 second pour at 10PSI with 5.5' of beer line and after the taps are cold, I have good pours. Based on this calculator I need 9.2 feet of line. I just so happened to have exactly 10' of extra beer line and I just now, swapped my 5'er for the 10'er. I have a full beer now so I will report back in 30 minutes, with my results when I pour another beer . Isn't science great?


David

 

[MagicMatt]

In my system, I have a 10.45 second pour at 10PSI with 5.5' of beer line and after the taps are cold, I have good pours. Based on this calculator I need 9.2 feet of line. I just so happened to have exactly 10' of extra beer line and I just now, swapped my 5'er for the 10'er. I have a full beer now so I will report back in 30 minutes, with my results when I pour another beer . Isn't science great?

Science is great indeed!

Eagerly awaiting your report, but I'm confident you'll notice little-to-no change in pour when only adding 5 ft. As I said above, line resistance decreases exponentially as flow rate decreases. Doubling your beer line length barely has a noticeable impact on how long it takes to fill a pint.

It's a common misconception that extra long lines, or additional resistance beyond the "ideal" or "balanced" figures will cause some sort of problems or foaming. There are only two side effects of extra long lines: a very slightly slower pour, and the ability to serve beer at a much wider variety of temperatures and carb levels without any issues. Again, neither of these is necessarily a negative side effect; in fact quite the opposite.

There's a lot of misleading information on the web regarding "balancing" draft beer systems. The vast majority of it completely ignores basic laws of fluid mechanics and makes assumptions that often don't apply to homebrewers and home-draft users. Another misconception might stem from the phrase "line balancing". This implies that there's some magic balance between pressure and resistance that results in a good pour, and anything else will cause foam. This couldn't be further from the truth.

The reason resistance is required in a draft system is to slow the flow of beer down until it's gentle enough that the CO2 doesn't get knocked out of solution and result in a ton of foam as it makes it from the faucet to the glass. How slow and gentle the pour needs to be to accomplish this is highly dependent on the serving temperature and carbonation level of the beer. The warmer or more highly carbed the beer is, the slower and gentler the pour needs to be. And few degrees makes a big difference. If you read through the plethora of "help, my beer is all foam" threads here, you'll notice that many people suggest a serving temp of 40° and using 10-12' lines. The 5' lines that come with kegerators and kits work just fine under commercial conditions of 33-36°, but the lines need to be at least doubled when the serving temp rises just 4°.

For commercial systems where the beer is stored between 33° and 36° and the carbonation level is between 2.5 and 2.7 vol, people have found that the fastest a beer can be poured without excessive foam is ~1 gal/min. All of the equations, resistance figures, calculators, and most of the articles you've likely found assume this flow rate. There are a couple problems with this assumption. First, if you use those equations and resistance figures you'll end up with a flow rate of 1 gal/min, which in many cases is too fast and will result in a fire-hose of foam. The second is that line resistance is not a constant for a given type of beer line, it's actually dependent on the flow rate. This means that those figures and equations are completely useless for any flow rate other than 1 gal/min (which is about a 7 second pour).

I was once in the dark on all of this too, until someone on here schooled me properly on the topic and shared much of the above information. I'm grateful now to have a better understanding.

 

[Colt85]

Don't do this. You'd be losing resistance. Line resistance decreases exponentially as flow rate decreases. This means there's zero need to try minimizing resistance. If anything, you're more likely to need to increase resistance, not decrease it.

If you're certain there's no leaks (I hear the sanke couplers can often be the source of a foam problem), the only other thing I can suggest is adding more line. Run 25-30ft of it between keg and tap. A 12psi push should give a nice slow (10-15 second), gentle pour. If that cuts down on your foam, the problem is the balance is off and your keg must be carbed higher than you think. You can start cutting lengths off of the 30ft until you reach your desirable pour speed/foam ratio. But honestly there really is no ill effect from leaving it at 30ft - just a slower pour (which could be a good thing).

Thanks Matt, I thought so. Before I'd started reading about line pressures and whatnot I was running ~4 feet with the same issue so I doubt shortening the line will help. But jesus, 30 feet? I mean I'll try anything at this point but wow

 

[djonesax]

Sorry I didn't post this last night but I didn't end up pouring another pint. I did sacrifice half a pint on my way to work this AM for the sake of science and this thread. At 35 degrees, 10PSI, 10 ft of 3/16" ID PVC (http://www.homebrewing.org/product....m=ProductAds&gclid=CPvF-6C4rcYCFdgQgQodpkIGDQ), my beer trickled out of the tap. It didn't have enough flow speed to fill the tap and came out like you would pour a bottled beer. So 10' is obviously too long for my system. Maybe 7 would be ok, but at 5' I have a 10.45 second pour and only have foam on the first pint when the tap is warm and consecutive pours are perfectly foam free.

If I remember I had over 7' when I started the battle of the foam last year. I replaced them all with 5' when I moved the taps to the keezer from a tower on the wall. Maybe 7' would have been fine but I was still trying to figure out the foam problem and was changing lots of stuff. Either way 10' is too long for my system.

David

 

[Colt85]

If the co2 is coming out of solution in the lines then most likely the lines are dirty or there is a leak somewhere. Is it only the commercial kegs foaming. The psi needs to equalize with your system as well. When you have adjusted the various pressures have you bled off the co2 prior to serving or do you just keep changing the pressure without time for the system to equalize?

Have you tried to connect the keg to a different tap and get the same issue?

It's quite possible the keg is simply over carbonated

Thanks duboman,

Overcarbonation was the last possibility I tried to fix. I disconnected the keg, purged all the CO2 and then repeated this over 4 days, purging twice a day until the gas stopped escaping. Then I hooked back up to the regulator at 8psi and let it sit for another 3 days and tried again. Same issue.

I'm confused about the leak possibility. Am I wrong in assuming that if there were a leak in a coupler and atmospheric air was getting into the lines, beer would be getting out? I'm definitely not cleaning up beer from the floor of the keezer

 

[Colt85]

Sorry I didn't post this last night but I didn't end up pouring another pint. I did sacrifice half a pint on my way to work this AM for the sake of science and this thread. At 35 degrees, 10PSI, 10 ft of 3/16" ID PVC (http://www.homebrewing.org/product....m=ProductAds&gclid=CPvF-6C4rcYCFdgQgQodpkIGDQ), my beer trickled out of the tap. It didn't have enough flow speed to fill the tap and came out like you would pour a bottled beer. So 10' is obviously too long for my system. Maybe 7 would be ok, but at 5' I have a 10.45 second pour and only have foam on the first pint when the tap is warm and consecutive pours are perfectly foam free.

If I remember I had over 7' when I started the battle of the foam last year. I replaced them all with 5' when I moved the taps to the keezer from a tower on the wall. Maybe 7' would have been fine but I was still trying to figure out the foam problem and was changing lots of stuff. Either way 10' is too long for my system.

David

Thanks David. So 10 feet gave you slow pours but may not have contributed to the foam problem?

 

[Colt85]

Here's what I'm dealing with

View attachment IMG_9978.MOV

 

[djonesax]

Thanks David. So 10 feet gave you slow pours but may not have contributed to the foam problem?

It was foamy because it was not pouring smoothly. But remember at 5', I only have foam on the first pour when the taps are warm so my foam is temperature related and not line length. I'm not saying an extra foot or two would hurt but I get a 10.45 second pour with 5' of line and at 10' I had too much resistance to push the beer out of the tap properly.

As it happens, I am arguing this on two threads right now, here is a picture...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=531450&page=2
Good luck with your system, I hope you figure it out.

 

[actionjackson905]

If the problem is equipment/leak related, wouldn't beer be leaking out? All my connections are dry

Just finished reading all of the posts here. I had this issue ages ago. Went through all of the balancing recommendations, as well as cooling and carbing levels. Three things I think contributed to my success were... 1. Proper food grade pvc lines, HD and Lowe's stuff is crap. Get proper 3/16 ID thick walled lines and make sure that they are cold when dispensing. 2. Not all beers are the same, some brews even though carbed at the same volumes might need a lower psi to dispens. 3. Seals can allow air in without letting beer out. Picture an aortic valve. Blood goes one way then when pressure drops the valve (flap) drops back not allowing back flow. I had a ball lock seal that allowed air in during flow (big foaming just like your vid) but not beer out when stopped as the pressure would push the ripped seal back into place.

Good luck on getting to the bottom of your issue.

Cheers!

 

[djonesax]

Proper food grade pvc lines, HD and Lowe's stuff is crap. Get proper 3/16 ID thick walled lines and make sure that they are cold when dispensing.

This....

 

[Kwitty]

10 feet of 3/16 line at 10 psi and 40F is what I run with no problems. That said I have a couple ideas. 1 drop the beer lines off the kegs and let them hang. Heat rises! It only takes a couple degrees to upset the balance. 2. You have a really cool tower that is one big efficient heat sink! Copper tubes thru a large heavy thick chunk of pipe. It's like running your beer thru a wort chiller, but now your warming it instead of. Cooling. Remember it only takes a few degrees change to upset the balance! Here is a simple test. Buy a picnic tap and an extra chunk of beer line. Get 10ft. Hook it to your beer. Fill the line with beer and let it get cold for a few. If the problem goes away you know it has to be the construction of the tower. You could also pull the picnic tap out to the height of the taps to prove that height isn't the issue. Without that heatsink of copper and steel sucking the cold out of the line I bet the problem gets better! Also I see you have what look like flow control faucets. Are you sure they're the right ones? I know they make a creamer faucet for stouts. I know its a long shot but it was an idea. Either way good luck and keep us posted on the results!

 

[Colt85]

Just finished reading all of the posts here. I had this issue ages ago. Went through all of the balancing recommendations, as well as cooling and carbing levels. Three things I think contributed to my success were... 1. Proper food grade pvc lines, HD and Lowe's stuff is crap. Get proper 3/16 ID thick walled lines and make sure that they are cold when dispensing. 2. Not all beers are the same, some brews even though carbed at the same volumes might need a lower psi to dispens. 3. Seals can allow air in without letting beer out. Picture an aortic valve. Blood goes one way then when pressure drops the valve (flap) drops back not allowing back flow. I had a ball lock seal that allowed air in during flow (big foaming just like your vid) but not beer out when stopped as the pressure would push the ripped seal back into place.

Good luck on getting to the bottom of your issue.

Cheers!

Well I spent good money on good line thick walled line purchased at a brew supply so I should be all set there. More and more signs pointing to a leak at the coupler (great analogy btw). Here's what I'm working with:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002UZUSIM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

with this connector:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002EAJXW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The connector seems suspect as the contact between the "nut" piece and the "nipple" piece is just metal on metal. This seemed odd to me when I set it up. I even tried pulling an O ring off an old fuel injector and tried to get a better seal there but that just made it worse. Am I missing something or is this how they're supposed to be assembled? (see pic)

 

[Colt85]

10 feet of 3/16 line at 10 psi and 40F is what I run with no problems. That said I have a couple ideas. 1 drop the beer lines off the kegs and let them hang. Heat rises! It only takes a couple degrees to upset the balance. 2. You have a really cool tower that is one big efficient heat sink! Copper tubes thru a large heavy thick chunk of pipe. It's like running your beer thru a wort chiller, but now your warming it instead of. Cooling. Remember it only takes a few degrees change to upset the balance! Here is a simple test. Buy a picnic tap and an extra chunk of beer line. Get 10ft. Hook it to your beer. Fill the line with beer and let it get cold for a few. If the problem goes away you know it has to be the construction of the tower. You could also pull the picnic tap out to the height of the taps to prove that height isn't the issue. Without that heatsink of copper and steel sucking the cold out of the line I bet the problem gets better! Also I see you have what look like flow control faucets. Are you sure they're the right ones? I know they make a creamer faucet for stouts. I know its a long shot but it was an idea. Either way good luck and keep us posted on the results!

Thanks! That pipe tower is actually stuffed with insulator, through which the copper/lines run, but you may still be right. If it was first couple pours and then smoothed out, I'd buy the tower temp argument but it's constant.

I had no idea there were "creamy" faucets! This is the model I'm using, what do you think?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0072KAC2M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[robfar]

Well I spent good money on good line thick walled line purchased at a brew supply so I should be all set there. More and more signs pointing to a leak at the coupler (great analogy btw). Here's what I'm working with:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002UZUSIM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

with this connector:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002EAJXW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The connector seems suspect as the contact between the "nut" piece and the "nipple" piece is just metal on metal. This seemed odd to me when I set it up. I even tried pulling an O ring off an old fuel injector and tried to get a better seal there but that just made it worse. Am I missing something or is this how they're supposed to be assembled? (see pic)

The seal is where the O-ring is squeezed between the "nipple" and the metal shank. The metal-on-metal is just providing the squeezing force. It's all correct in the drawing.

 

[MagicMatt]

I didn't see if you mentioned if you had played with the flow control on the faucet at all?

And I know 30ft may seem like a bit overkill, but it's just to aid in diagnosing the cause of the issue. Try 20' instead if you want. In fact, I would use 20' and hook up a picnic tap to it, that way you eliminate the tower and faucets altogether. If it pours fine with 20' and a picnic tap, then hook that same 20' to your faucets and try. If it foams, then you know it's something with your tower/faucets (cooling issue, flow control, etc).


And David, I find it very hard to believe that only 10' of line will cause your tap to stop flowing at an acceptable speed. What PSI are you at? I have a 32' line (3/16") in my keezer that is there in case I ever want to dispense soda (which is carbed much higher than beer), but when it's not being used for soda, I can hook it up to a keg and dispense my beer just fine at 38°F and 12psi. There is a slight decrease in pour speed, but it's certainly tolerable. Maybe 13 seconds.

Think about this: if adding line length caused the beer to stop flowing correctly, how in the world do jockey boxes (with either 50" of coils or ~30ft of line/cold plate circuit) work so well? I have one, and it pushes beer just fine with around 15psi, through over 30 feet of tubing (3/16" pvc line & 1/4"OD stainless), and I even double pass through my cold plate.

You mentioned that with 10' you were getting a pour "like from a bottle"....well this is exactly what you want! Why would you want your beer to come flying out of the faucet like a fire hose? The beer shouldn't "fill the tap" completely. You'd fill a beer glass in under 5 seconds that way.

 

[Rockn_M]

Thanks! That pipe tower is actually stuffed with insulator, through which the copper/lines run, but you may still be right. If it was first couple pours and then smoothed out, I'd buy the tower temp argument but it's constant.

I had no idea there were "creamy" faucets! This is the model I'm using, what do you think?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0072KAC2M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Try adjusting the creamer knob on the facuet.

 

[Kwitty]

Well I spent good money on good line thick walled line purchased at a brew supply so I should be all set there. More and more signs pointing to a leak at the coupler (great analogy btw). Here's what I'm working with:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002UZUSIM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

with this connector:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002EAJXW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The connector seems suspect as the contact between the "nut" piece and the "nipple" piece is just metal on metal. This seemed odd to me when I set it up. I even tried pulling an O ring off an old fuel injector and tried to get a better seal there but that just made it worse. Am I missing something or is this how they're supposed to be assembled? (see pic)

There's no beer and touching anywhere near that part of the coupler. The sealing point is between the sanke tap and the bottom of the nipple. That's why the seal goes there. The only other place to leak at that connection is the hose on the nipple. That nut needs to firmly and flatly hold down the nipple flange. If you put something inbetween it, it could compromise the seal of the flange to the sanke tap. More chance it'll make things worse!

 

[Colt85]

I didn't see if you mentioned if you had played with the flow control on the faucet at all?

And I know 30ft may seem like a bit overkill, but it's just to aid in diagnosing the cause of the issue. Try 20' instead if you want. In fact, I would use 20' and hook up a picnic tap to it, that way you eliminate the tower and faucets altogether. If it pours fine with 20' and a picnic tap, then hook that same 20' to your faucets and try. If it foams, then you know it's something with your tower/faucets (cooling issue, flow control, etc).


And David, I find it very hard to believe that only 10' of line will cause your tap to stop flowing at an acceptable speed. What PSI are you at? I have a 32' line (3/16") in my keezer that is there in case I ever want to dispense soda (which is carbed much higher than beer), but when it's not being used for soda, I can hook it up to a keg and dispense my beer just fine at 38°F and 12psi. There is a slight decrease in pour speed, but it's certainly tolerable. Maybe 13 seconds.

Think about this: if adding line length caused the beer to stop flowing correctly, how in the world do jockey boxes (with either 50" of coils or ~30ft of line/cold plate circuit) work so well? I have one, and it pushes beer just fine with around 15psi, through over 30 feet of tubing (3/16" pvc line & 1/4"OD stainless), and I even double pass through my cold plate.

You mentioned that with 10' you were getting a pour "like from a bottle"....well this is exactly what you want! Why would you want your beer to come flying out of the faucet like a fire hose? The beer shouldn't "fill the tap" completely. You'd fill a beer glass in under 5 seconds that way.

Yes, plenty of adjustment with the flow control, including starting with the flow completely off followed by gradual increase. Even at a slow dribble all I get is foam.

Anything wrong with splicing in a new section of line with a nylon barb coupler? To change the line completely I have to disassemble the entire tower and it's quite labor intensive.

 

[Colt85]

The seal is where the O-ring is squeezed between the "nipple" and the metal shank. The metal-on-metal is just providing the squeezing force. It's all correct in the drawing.

Good to know, thanks robfar

 

[MagicMatt]

Anything wrong with splicing in a new section of line with a nylon barb coupler? To change the line completely I have to disassemble the entire tower and it's quite labor intensive.

It might work in a pinch, but I wouldn't use it as a permanent line. Any turbulence caused by the coupler could allow the CO2 to come out of solution even more.

Instead I would recommend just using a picnic tap as I mentioned earlier. This is just a test anyway, so no need to connect to the taps. If it works with the picnic tap and you get no foam, you can then go through the trouble of connecting it to the tower as you have proof it should work fine. If you go this route and do eventually connect the longer line to the tap and it doesn't work for some reason, that would 100% indicate something with the faucets/tower.

 

[Colt85]

It might work in a pinch, but I wouldn't use it as a permanent line. Any turbulence caused by the coupler could allow the CO2 to come out of solution even more.

Instead I would recommend just using a picnic tap as I mentioned earlier. This is just a test anyway, so no need to connect to the taps. If it works with the picnic tap and you get no foam, you can then go through the trouble of connecting it to the tower as you have proof it should work fine. If you go this route and do eventually connect the longer line to the tap and it doesn't work for some reason, that would 100% indicate something with the faucets/tower.

Good plan, I like it! I'll give it a shot.

One thing I just noticed, the the nipple at the top of the D coupler is within about 2 inches of the bottom of the lid of the keezer, so when the lid is closed, the line takes an immediate 90 degree bend. Guts tell me that's probably not good, what do you think?

 

[djonesax]

And David, I find it very hard to believe that only 10' of line will cause your tap to stop flowing at an acceptable speed. What PSI are you at?

10PSI as previously stated.

Think about this: if adding line length caused the beer to stop flowing correctly, how in the world do jockey boxes (with either 50" of coils or ~30ft of line/cold plate circuit) work so well? I have one, and it pushes beer just fine with around 15psi, through over 30 feet of tubing (3/16" pvc line & 1/4"OD stainless), and I even double pass through my cold plate.

Not sure about the jockey, never built one or really looked inside one. Looking at this one in the link though, it uses 50' 5/16 OD tubing which has a resistance of about .5 PSI. So over 50' that would drop roughly 25PSI and the instructions clearly say to start out at 30PSI to push the beer through.

http://www.kegworks.com/single-fauc...ctid50COIL-S&gclid=CKO-3sr1rcYCFdgHgQodQlUMGQ

You mentioned that with 10' you were getting a pour "like from a bottle"....well this is exactly what you want! Why would you want your beer to come flying out of the faucet like a fire hose? The beer shouldn't "fill the tap" completely. You'd fill a beer glass in under 5 seconds that way.

No, this is not what "I" want, this causes the pour to be turbulent, "I" want it to fall out of the tap but a nice solid pour. I said before that I am getting a 10.45 second pour with 5' of line at 10 PSI, at 35 degrees.

Anyway, your system works for you and thats great, I'm not trying to start an argument. I'll take a video of the pour later to show what I mean.

David