BCS 460 Tell me all about it.

[CodeRage]

Given this theory I could never use a power saw or drive a car because something COULD happen if I did something wrong.

Little late to the party don't you think? Those are terrible analogies btw. You should never use a saw with a loose arbor and no blade guard or drive a car in a snow storm at night with no head lights and bald tires because you are INCREASING your chances that something COULD happen. There is a reason you can't go to the store and buy a double male extension cord, it's a reckless practice.

Pol,
There is a foot or two of plumbing between the probe and the output of the hex. The pump is between the two as well. The original thought was that the impeller would disrupt the laminar flow and mix what ever thermal stratification that may be in the pipe. It worked well for low wattage elements but I think it is too much lag in the response time for the higher wattages.

 

[The Pol]

Little late to the party don't you think? Those are terrible analogies btw. You should never use a saw with a loose arbor and no blade guard or drive a car in a snow storm at night with no head lights and bald tires because you are INCREASING your chances that something COULD happen. There is a reason you can't go to the store and buy a double male extension cord, it's a reckless practice.

Pol,
There is a foot or two of plumbing between the probe and the output of the hex. The pump is between the two as well. The original thought was that the impeller would disrupt the laminar flow and mix what ever thermal stratification that may be in the pipe. It worked well for low wattage elements but I think it is too much lag in the response time for the higher wattages.

I will be interested to see if my "U" shaped RIMS and the fact that there will be two folded elements in there will cause enough turbulence to get good readings...

 

[MrShake]

Looks very DIY and unrefined. BCS needs you to plug in your temp probes, that happen to be adjustable in length... and to plug in your SSR outputs, that is it. The web based interface, IMO, is very nice!

Not to throw a wrench in here (and I haven't read all the pages yet), but I just ordered a BrewTroller... Give it power, plug in your (premade from brewer's hardware) adjustable length temp probes and SSRs and poof, bob's your uncle.

IMHO, BrewTroller is at least as simple as the BCS... though the web interface for the BCS is SCHWEET!! But don't let BT intimidate you!

 

[kaiser423]

There is a reason you can't go to the store and buy a double male extension cord, it's a reckless practice.

Yea, I have also had the unfortunate dealings with a double male-ended cord, and even with very careful people, it is still a bad mix. Especially around water and/or metal. A single mis-handle can send a pretty good spark/molten metal shower to your face or other body parts. Not fun.

I understand that on some systems, it's a big pain to not have a double male-end, but really wiring up a small box, or cutting and re-terminating a cable will cause lots of peace of mind later on.

Just my 2 cents. Carry on as a responsible adult whom understands the risks.

 

[eccsynd]

I have been trying to mess with the BCS demo, but I cant get it to DO anything, it is sort of frustrating.

Yes, this is by design. The BCS has 2 levels of password control, User and Observer. The password posted has Observer privileges, where you you monitor the BCS, but not update / interfere with its operation. User level lets you do everything. Shoot me an email/PM, and I'll give you the User level password so that you can play with it.

Actually there's 3 levels of password control, you can have no password protection, which makes sense if you're on a private network.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Not to throw a wrench in here (and I haven't read all the pages yet), but I just ordered a BrewTroller... Give it power, plug in your (premade from brewer's hardware) adjustable length temp probes and SSRs and poof, bob's your uncle.

IMHO, BrewTroller is at least as simple as the BCS... though the web interface for the BCS is SCHWEET!! But don't let BT intimidate you!

I have a brewtroller also but I think for the non-technical brewer, the BCS is a better choice at this time. Matt and Jeremiah at the brewtroller site are taking great pains to get the brewtroller to the point that a non-technical brewer can use it efficiently. The real advantage of the brewtroller is the ability to read fluid volume, arduino hadware conpatibility, the auto-brew function and open source code. We should see a full functional remote interface soon and there is a someone working on adding a lan interface.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Not to throw a wrench in here (and I haven't read all the pages yet), but I just ordered a BrewTroller... Give it power, plug in your (premade from brewer's hardware) adjustable length temp probes and SSRs and poof, bob's your uncle.

IMHO, BrewTroller is at least as simple as the BCS... though the web interface for the BCS is SCHWEET!! But don't let BT intimidate you!

Not sure what "bob's your uncle" means but here is my understanding;

Give it power... meaning locate, order and wire a power supply. And don't forget to locate and order a separate LCD screen. While you are at it, start looking for a ribbon cable (make sure which version of the board you have because you will need connectors and it appears the termination has changed. Make sure you have the correct SW and libraries loaded. Program it through the one button encoder interface on the 4 line screen. Locate a suitable enclosure and modify it so the screen is visible. Hook up your probes and ssrs and you are ready to fly.

I don't want to bash the product. I think it has a lot of merit, but I poured over the site and through the forums for hours looking for the encoder requirements before finding an obscure reference that it is included. Read one thread about a guy that bought one, plugged it and then was told he needed the display that he didn't order.

Ed

 

[The Pol]

I know we covered this... and we are all feeling fuzzy and warm about SSR choices, but just to put icing on the cake, here is the answer from Embedded Control Concepts, thanks Adam!


The BCS will drive both zero-cross and non-zero cross (random) SSR's.

As far as zero cross SSR's driving pumps? I've never had any problems. I use Crydom D2425's to switch my march 809 pumps, and they've worked for years. In fact, I've never heard of this limitation. Even a random SSR will zero cross sometimes.

Cheers.
Adam
Embedded Control Concepts

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I know we covered this... and we are all feeling fuzzy and warm about SSR choices, but just to put icing on the cake, here is the answer from Embedded Control Concepts, thanks Adam!


The BCS will drive both zero-cross and non-zero cross (random) SSR's.

As far as zero cross SSR's driving pumps? I've never had any problems. I use Crydom D2425's to switch my march 809 pumps, and they've worked for years. In fact, I've never heard of this limitation. Even a random SSR will zero cross sometimes.

Cheers.
Adam
Embedded Control Concepts

Good feedback. Thanks for sharing.

 

[sjlammer]

Pol,

you can do what you are planning with the BCS. It is a fairly flexible system. For example, you can drive output1 with one probe in one process, and another probe in a second process.

you can also string them together if you get teh crydom D24xx. Meaning you only need one output to drive two SSRs for a 240V heat stick.

The only thing i don;t like is that i can't set the alarm to go off after a single process, Ei. sound an alarm after 60 minutes of boiling. I think the alarm will go off after each state change

 

[Ohio-Ed]

The only thing i don;t like is that i can't set the alarm to go off after a single process, Ei. sound an alarm after 60 minutes of boiling. I think the alarm will go off after each state change

I think if you turn the alarm off for each state in the process and set it on only in the "Boil" state, the alarm will sound when the Boil State exits.

 

[The Pol]

Okay, you CAN NOT control 2 outputs with ONE PID... yet. Sounds like they are interested in putting that functionality in the next firmware update!

For now, I can run both RIMS heater elements on separate control functions, but have one heat to say 150F and the other to 165 so that the controllers do not duke it out. Both will run almost all the way up, then the single element will finish the last bit.

That is, until it gets placed in the new firmware update... maybe...

 

[jfkriege]

If you wanted to control 2 outputs with one PID you would use a Double Throw Single Pole SSR. In order to be able to switch between one and two elements, you would have to also have a second normally closed SSR on the hot of one element to toggle it independently off when required (just after the first SSR).

 

[The Pol]

If you wanted to control 2 outputs with one PID you would use a Double Throw Single Pole SSR. In order to be able to switch between one and two elements, you would have to also have a second normally closed SSR on the hot of one element to toggle it independently off when required (just after the first SSR).

I can get around it with the afore mentioned work around, and it sounds like they are inerested in changing this in the nextfirmware update

 

[jfkriege]

Firmware would certainly be an easier way to go than relays in series. Cleaner wiring and cheaper as well.

 

[Hermit]

Firmware would certainly be an easier way to go than relays in series. Cleaner wiring and cheaper as well.

I have a way of remembering seemingly useless information. This will get packed away with that stuff though because of the thought process involved in the 'work around'. :rockin:

 

[The Pol]

By the time this thing is operational, the new firmware will just about be available I think, so... I can use the work around until such time as the software is updated.

 

[chemman14]

I have a brewtroller also but I think for the non-technical brewer, the BCS is a better choice at this time. Matt and Jeremiah at the brewtroller site are taking great pains to get the brewtroller to the point that a non-technical brewer can use it efficiently. The real advantage of the brewtroller is the ability to read fluid volume, arduino hadware conpatibility, the auto-brew function and open source code. We should see a full functional remote interface soon and there is a someone working on adding a lan interface.

If there was a way to get the brewtroller on a network, it would definitely win

 

[The Pol]

If there was a way to get the brewtroller on a network, it would definitely win

It would help... and if I didnt have to build my own temp. probes and such. Right now I dont want to have a control panel on my rig at all... so the network virtual controller is really nice.

 

[Sawdustguy]

If there was a way to get the brewtroller on a network, it would definitely win

As I mentioned in my post that you quoted, it is currently being worked on.

http://www.brewtroller.com/forum/showthread.php?t=502

 

[RonRock]

By the time this thing is operational, the new firmware will just about be available I think, so... I can use the work around until such time as the software is updated.

Not sure how long until a firmware update, but the current version is fairly new 11/22/09.

 

[The Pol]

Not sure how long until a firmware update, but the current version is fairly new 11/22/09.

BCS sayes 3-4 months between updates, and they sound VERY interested in making those PID changes to the next update. It is over in the BCS forum that we discussed it.

Basically you would then be able to control multiple outputs with a single PID... sort of a twist on the current Alternate PID function, just more intuitive.

If this is how ECC rolls... I like it. I like user needs being integrated, and in a timely manner. Already I think the control solution is phenominal for my needs, it will do more than I will require.

 

[Sawdustguy]

It would help... and if I didnt have to build my own temp. probes and such. Right now I dont want to have a control panel on my rig at all... so the network virtual controller is really nice.

Derrin makes Brewtroller Probes also. He made me four of them. He uses the Dallas DS18B20 Temp Sensor instead of a NTC thermistor inside the same thermowell.

http://www.brewershardware.com/probes.htm

Here are a few pictures of my brewtroller based control panel (the display is not connected). I use mechanical relays to control the pumps and valves, an SSR for the RIMS and the 24 VAC transformer is switched by the Brewtroller to control the Honeywell Natural Gas Intermittent Pilot valves I use. In all I control 6 valves, 3 pumps, read 3 pressure sensors for volume measurement and PID control the RIMS and two natural gas burners. The plate mounts right into the control panel enclosure.

 

[RonRock]

Pol,

Cool. I'm with you on BCS. I especially like the web interface. Nice and clean brewstand, and no need for a bunch of switches to figure out. Mine is wireless so I can have a laptop near and control it all. I do need to get my old laptop a wireless card, won't hurt so bad when I get it wet.


Man that is a work of art Guy!

 

[The Pol]

Nice work Guy...

To much DIY for me... I like the black box and that I can order the adjustable length (I like this idea too) temp. probes on the same site.

Brewtroller is sweet, IMHO they would get more attention if they made it easier for people to implement it. That is the reason I am looking at BCS, it is just easier to implement at this point and seems cleaner.

 

[CodeRage]

Nice work Guy...

To much DIY for me... I like the black box...

Coming from a pilot that's kind of funny.

 

[The Pol]

Coming from a pilot that's kind of funny.

Heh... I suppose it is! Now if they painted thiers orange like ours... that would be sweet.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Nice work Guy...

To much DIY for me... I like the black box and that I can order the adjustable length (I like this idea too) temp. probes on the same site.

Brewtroller is sweet, IMHO they would get more attention if they made it easier for people to implement it. That is the reason I am looking at BCS, it is just easier to implement at this point and seems cleaner.

I would have to agree. If they put it in a nice black box with a 16 channel relay card, power supply and lan connector it would have more appeal to the general homebrewer but less appeal to the geeks.

 

[The Pol]

I would have to agree. If they put it in a nice black box with a 16 channel relay card, power supply and lan connector it would have more appeal to the general homebrewer but less appeal to the geeks.

I think it is HELLA sweet to see what DIY HBers have come up with and have begun to sell to the rest of us. I mean... this IS a hobby, but having a wireless web based controller to set and monitor temps? WTF?

Both are sweet... I and though I do LOVE DIY, I have plenty of other work to do on this rig, I will let BCS handle building the controller.

Brewtroller needs to sell a complete unit for $XXXX BUT sell the componenst for geeks that want to configure thier own at a discount.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I would have to agree. If they put it in a nice black box with a 16 channel relay card, power supply and lan connector it would have more appeal to the general homebrewer but less appeal to the geeks.

Guy,

My current plan is to build a system, implementing the BCS. The BCS meets my current needs. I'm running electric and not currently planning to control liquid, so pressure sensors and valves aren't in the picture.

However, I'm trying to keep the design such that the controller can be replaced fairly easily. I LOVE DIY stuff, I might look at the Brewtroller as an upgrade as time allows.

Unlike Pol, I do plan to have a control panel. I like the idea of being able to manually control the components for cleaning, testing, etc, at the brew stand with out the laptop/computer. So replacing the controller should be fairly simple should the need arise.

Ed

Ed

 

[The Pol]

It would be "nice" to have a manual panel... but if I have the BCS attached to my SSRs, I will still need to go into BCS to turn everything on, my manual switches could only turn them off.

I think I can get by with the BCS for cleaning and other things like using the system for Sous Vide cooking, a manual panel would be nice again, but Id still have to go into BCS to turn all of those outputs on so that I can acutally switch them manually, right?

 

[The Pol]

Question....

I aready know the answer to this, but lets get it out here.

If I am only going to have a "virtual" panel and use the BCS and SSRs to control my elements/pumps. I really need to have dual SSR control for each 240VAC element, otherwise when my control state is OFF, I still have one hot leg to each element. If I want it TRUELY off, I need dual SSR control to each element. I can control multiple SSRs with a single output on the BCS, so... looks like I will need about (10) SSRs to control 4 elements and 2 pumps.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Yeah....you're right....I think this got covered in some other thread.....DSSR's are apparently not as expensive as some have thought. I'll probably go that route, just to save space.

 

[The Pol]

Yeah....you're right....I think this got covered in some other thread.....DSSR's are apparently not as expensive as some have thought. I'll probably go that route, just to save space.

Last I looked, I thought SSRDs were about $100 each... let me keep looking.

I already have (4) SSRs, I guess I only need (4) more... at $15 each with heat sinks...

I have the space to squeeze in (4) more...

 

[Ohio-Ed]

It would be "nice" to have a manual panel... but if I have the BCS attached to my SSRs, I will still need to go into BCS to turn everything on, my manual switches could only turn them off.

I think I can get by with the BCS for cleaning and other things like using the system for Sous Vide cooking, a manual panel would be nice again, but Id still have to go into BCS to turn all of those outputs on so that I can acutally switch them manually, right?

I am planning on switches that will allow me to disconnect the control from the BCS and fire the SSR's directly from the panel using the BCS's auxiliary 5Vdc terminal. The switches will also allow me to disconnect the ALL control voltage from the SSR's directly.

You can use dual ssr's (DSSR) or two ssr's per element. When you consider 2 SSR's AND two heat sinks, the DSSR's may be less expensive (and should be easier to wire). I am leaning toward DSSR's.

Ed

 

[The Pol]

I am planning on switches that will allow me to disconnect the control from the BCS and fire the SSR's directly from the panel using the BCS's auxiliary 5Vdc terminal. The switches will also allow me to disconnect the ALL control voltage from the SSR's directly.

You can use dual ssr's (DSSR) or two ssr's per element. When you consider 2 SSR's AND two heat sinks, the DSSR's may be less expensive (and should be easier to wire). I am leaning toward DSSR's.

Ed

40A SSRs with heatsinks can be had for about $15 each if you look (I have some for that price) Seeing as though I already have (4) I will just get (4) more for $60 total

The wiring shouldnt be much harder, just take the BCS output and daisychain to the other associated SSR, that is what ECC made it sound like I needed to do.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

40A SSRs with heatsinks can be had for about $15 each if you look (I have some for that price) Seeing as though I already have (4) I will just get (4) more for $60 total

The wiring shouldnt be much harder, just take the BCS output and daisychain to the other associated SSR, that is what ECC made it sound like I needed to do.

I agree that is all there is to it.
Where did you find SSR's & Heatsinks for $15? Link?

I was using Aubers as a comparisson... I saw DSSR's for ~$55, and would still need a heatsink.

Ed

 

[yellowcolumbia]

It would be "nice" to have a manual panel... but if I have the BCS attached to my SSRs, I will still need to go into BCS to turn everything on, my manual switches could only turn them off.

Use an on-off-on switch between the bcs and each ssr. 1st on is "auto", using the switched output of the bcs. The 2nd on is "manual" which uses the 5v constant output of the bcs. Off is off.
I'm planning on using a switch like this:http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/SearchResults.aspx?N=0&Ntk=Primary&Ntt=908-0069

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Use an on-off-on switch between the bcs and each ssr. 1st on is "auto", using the switched output of the bcs. The 2nd on is "manual" which uses the 5v constant output of the bcs. Off is off.
I'm planning on using a switch like this:http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/SearchResults.aspx?N=0&Ntk=Primary&Ntt=908-0069

Exactly what I'm planning, only a different switch.

Ed

 

[The Pol]

You guys are so tricky! I am just too lazy to do that... I am a lazy slob.