BCS 460 Tell me all about it.

[Sawdustguy]

Just to set the record straight. It looks as if a regular zero crossing SSR will work just fine. After reading this: http://pewa.panasonic.com/pcsd/tech_info/pdf/semi_eng_ssr2.pdf it seems you would need a large back emf spike to cause a problem. While they do recommend non-zero crossing SSR's for inductive loads, for the size inductive loads we deal with, zero crossing SSR's will work just fine and this was actually tested by Code Rage. I am sorry for the alarm. I am just trying to help.

 

[Bsquared]

Going to start a Brewing cycle right now, but don't think I will actually brew. I think i better do a wet run an get any kinks worked out before I try it with grain, don't feel like experimenting with a 35lb grain bill. I post how the pump works with a crydom D24D25 in about 1hr.

 

[CodeRage]

No worries Sawdust, I appreciate your good intentions. I would think that starting an inductive load at the zero in the wave form would be a good thing. Considering the coil is at it's least resistance at startup. The time period between a half cycle and the time it takes for the coil to load it's field may be very different to, so it may not make a difference between random start and ZC. the back emf would be present regardless of where you stop the wave form, so it's all about the snubber baby. It's all good, you can keep your black voodoo magic RF stuff That stuff makes for headaches greater than the apfelweine variety!

When switching any kind of inductive load you should take the current rating of the relay (it normally is resistive) and halve it. Very important for SSRs because they can not tolerate over currents at all. Mechanicals can however.

This is another reason why I wish the BCS used dry contacts instead of transistor outputs. They can provide a 5v control bias to use as needed (24v would be the best but 12 would suffice).

unholymess, they are 10 amp 12vdc pcb relays. It needs 12vdc for a power supply and uses a darlington array and a pull up resistor on the 0vdc side of the relay coil, the other side of the coil is wired straight to +12. When a +5v signal is read on the input pin of the darlington array and allows current to drain through it, turning on the relay. The Normally Open, Common, and Normally Closed contacts are brought out to the terminal strips. The USB port was used to to program the Logic board it attached to, so it's of no use in the current config.

Oh and there is a snubber diode across the coil to stop the inductive kick.

 

[CodeRage]

Going to start a Brewing cycle right now, but don't think I will actually brew. I think i better do a wet run an get any kinks worked out before I try it with grain, don't feel like experimenting with a 35lb grain bill. I post how the pump works with a crydom D24D25 in about 1hr.

Wise move! I'll bet you do a couple, and when you brew you will wish you had done one more . We've all been there

 

[The Pol]

I appreciate this discussion guys... I learned something and I didnt waste my money on the wrong SSRs...

I have 25A SSRs for my 1.2A pumps, so I feel confident now, thanks!

 

[Bsquared]

Wise move! I'll bet you do a couple, and when you brew you will wish you had done one more . We've all been there

yes I have way too many pots on the fire right now. best to slow it down

Good news, Pump works fine with D24D25 SSR. and my 2000 watt 120VAC heated the strike water from 125 to 174 in 40 min, right on schedule. Though I think I will have to get 220 in the garage to make it a little faster.

 

[The Pol]

yes I have way too many pots on the fire right now. best to slow it down

Good news, Pump works fine with D24D25 SSR. and my 2000 watt 120VAC heated the strike water from 125 to 174 in 40 min, right on schedule. Though I think I will have to get 220 in the garage to make it a little faster.

All good news...

I upgraded my garage 240VAC to 50A so I can run 9000W for heating strike and boiling, to save time.

I can then run the RIMS at 4500W during the mash cycle.

 

[CodeRage]

All good news...

I upgraded my garage 240VAC to 50A so I can run 9000W for heating strike and boiling, to save time.

I can then run the RIMS at 4500W during the mash cycle.

Pol. I am having to use a 4500W element for my RIMS right now. It's all I had laying around and I don't feel like changing it back to 120V. I think it is going to be waaaay to much power for my HEX. I'll let you know.

What kind of hex are using btw?

 

[The Pol]

Pol. I am having to use a 4500W element for my RIMS right now. It's all I had laying around and I don't feel like changing it back to 120V. I think it is going to be waaaay to much power for my HEX. I'll let you know.

What kind of hex are using btw?

I am using a RIMS heater with dual 4500W elements

9000W for water heating
4500W for RIMS recirc

 

[CodeRage]

Something like sawdustguys?

 

[The Pol]

Something like sawdustguys?

I dont know what he uses... I dunno

Does he have it in his gallery?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I am using a RIMS heater with dual 4500W elements

9000W for water heating
4500W for RIMS recirc

WOW... 4500 for your RIMs? I'm using a 1500 watt element in my RIMs heater. But then I know you probably have more in mind. I'm planning 5500 watts in the HLT & BK.

Ed

SawDustGuy has pictures in his Rims for Dummies thread.

 

[The Pol]

WOW... 4500 for your RIMs? I'm using a 1500 watt element in my RIMs heater. But then I know you probably have more in mind. I'm planning 5500 watts in the HLT & BK.

Ed

SawDustGuy has pictures in his Rims for Dummies thread.

I mean, yeah I guess it is "like" his in the respect that it uses a tube and some elements... obviously a little different since it houses (2) elements.

The ONLY reason it has 4500W elements in it is because I wanted a max of 9000W when needed... I can halve it by running each element on an SSR and using a separate output on the BCS. Certain processes will use 9000W while others will use 4500W, same with the BK... it will use 9000W when needed and 4500W at other times. Separate elements, separate SSRs and separate BCS outputs.

 

[The Pol]

Does he leave his electronics out in the open like this?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Does he leave his electronics out in the open like this?

Dunno... Looks kinda permanently wired, but also looks like a cover has been removed.

 

[CodeRage]

Okay, Well I am convinced that HD elements are BAD for RIMS.

The 1500W HD element I used yesterday was causing flash boils with the recirc running at full tilt. My element is before the pump and the steam was causing the pump to loose it's prime. It was also coming out of the intake side as well so I don't think it matters which side it is on.

The 4500 LD I am running now seems to be working okay but I am only at 115 waiting for the PID to autotune. I'll let you know if it starts having problems on the upper end.

Let me ask you something, are they going to be on their separate PID controllers or are you using one? If you are using one for each you are going to have problems with them fighting each other. If you use one controller for both and disable the second element it won't be tuned properly and you may run into problems. I think the best way to do it is to use 2 controllers, one for high power and one for lower power. Just select which one you want to use and have some control logic to disable the 2nd element and mux the control signals around. Just food for thought.

 

[The Pol]

Okay, Well I am convinced that HD elements are BAD for RIMS.

The 1500W HD element I used yesterday was causing flash boils with the recirc running at full tilt. My element is before the pump and the steam was causing the pump to loose it's prime. It was also coming out of the intake side as well so I don't think it matters which side it is on.

The 4500 LD I am running now seems to be working okay but I am only at 115 waiting for the PID to autotune. I'll let you know if it starts having problems on the upper end.

Let me ask you something, are they going to be on their separate PID controllers or are you using one? If you are using one for each you are going to have problems with them fighting each other. If you use one controller for both and disable the second element it won't be tuned properly and you may run into problems. I think the best way to do it is to use 2 controllers, one for high power and one for lower power. Just select which one you want to use and have some control logic to disable the 2nd element and mux the control signals around. Just food for thought.

I dont have the BCS yet... but my plan was to use the elements on separate SSRs (obviously) and have them tied to the SAME temp. input. So, realistically they should fire in unison. I think the BCS can do this, I mean you can tie more than one output to a single temp input.

In the process that will utilize 9000W in the RIMS, I wont NEED to use PID functionality of the BCS, a simple ON/OFF temp. control function will suffice.

This is all theoretical, I will have hours in the garage with wet runs to figure it all out.

 

[The Pol]

I have been trying to mess with the BCS demo, but I cant get it to DO anything, it is sort of frustrating.

It is true, is it not, that I can tie multiple outputs to a single temp. input, yes?

I can also have a single output controlled my PID in one process and controlled by duty cycle in another and by ON/OFF temp. control in another, yes?

If so, this will help greatly.

If not, I may have to seriously dumb down my build.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I have been trying to mess with the BCS demo, but I cant get it to DO anything, it is sort of frustrating.

It is true, is it not, that I can tie multiple outputs to a single temp. input, yes?

I can also have a single output controlled my PID in one process and controlled by duty cycle in another and by ON/OFF temp. control in another, yes?

If so, this will help greatly.

If not, I may have to seriously dumb down my build.

I didn't get much out of the demo either. Really just looked like screen shots to me??

That's why I ended up buying one... kinda figured if it didn't work out, I'd put it in the classifieds or on ebay.

At this point, I don't have enough experience to definitively answer your questions.

I will hook it back up and see what I can learn. I'm sure any info is gonna be helpful for both of us.

IIRC though... I don't think you want the same output controlled by 2 running processes. Keep in mind, you can have 4 processes with 8 steps each.

Ed

Ed

 

[The Pol]

I didn't get much out of the demo either. Really just looked like screen shots to me??

That's why I ended up buying one... kinda figured if it didn't work out, I'd put it in the classifieds or on ebay.

At this point, I don't have enough experience to definitively answer your questions.

I will hook it back up and see what I can learn. I'm sure any info is gonna be helpful for both of us.

IIRC though... I don't think you want the same output controlled by 2 running processes. Keep in mind, you can have 4 processes with 8 steps each.

Ed

Ed

I dont think I am going to have one output controlled my 2 RUNNING processes.

I am going to have 2 totally seprarate processes, that will run at completely different times, where I want OUTPUT 1 to be controlled by PID in one... and during another completely separate process, at a separate time, controlled be ON/OFF

OUTPUT 1 is my #1 RIMS heating element
OUTPUT 2 is my #2 RIMS heating element
INPUT (temp) 1 is my RIMS HEATER OUTPUT TEMP


During STRIKE WATER heating I want OUTPUT 1 and OUTPUT 2 controlled by simple ON/OFF with a temp. setting of 165F, tied to INPUT1

During the RIMS mashing cycle:

I want OUTPUT 1 controlled by INPUT 1 with PID control

 

[CodeRage]

If not, I may have to seriously dumb down my build.

Or find a more suitable controller.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I dont think I am going to have one output controlled my 2 RUNNING processes.

I am going to have 2 totally seprarate processes, that will run at completely different times, where I want OUTPUT 1 to be controlled by PID in one... and during another completely separate process, at a separate time, controlled be ON/OFF

OUTPUT 1 is my #1 RIMS heating element
OUTPUT 2 is my #2 RIMS heating element
INPUT (temp) 1 is my RIMS HEATER OUTPUT TEMP


During STRIKE WATER heating I want OUTPUT 1 and OUTPUT 2 controlled by simple ON/OFF with a temp. setting of 165F, tied to INPUT1

During the RIMS mashing cycle:

I want OUTPUT 1 controlled by INPUT 1 with PID control

From my VERY LIMITED experience, I think this can be done.

Another FYI... IIRC, currently one process cannot start or stop another process.

 

[martinworswick]

have you considered the brewtroller as an alternative option?

 

[The Pol]

From my VERY LIMITED experience, I think this can be done.

Another FYI... IIRC, currently one process cannot start or stop another process.

I think it can be done as well, if so, I am golden.

Honestly I do not need the BCS to automate my brewing. If it can control elements with PID, Duty Cycle, On/Off and let me turn my pumps on and off from my PC, I am good.

I do like the idea of controlling 2 elements in one process with a single temp. input...

Then later in the brew day, controlling ONE of those elements with the same temp. input but with a completely different control logic.

 

[The Pol]

have you considered the brewtroller as an alternative option?

Yeah, then I did a search for it... and the website has nothing.... I mean, quite literally nothing to let me know what it is all about.

Honestly there isnt much on BCS either... but I have found a helluva lot more than what I can scrape up on Brewtroller.

I also like the wireless PC control that BCS provides.

Plus, Brewtroller looks really... well, unrefined. I like BCS because it is a box, I plug in three temp probes that they sell for the system, I send outputs to my SSRs, that is it.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Yeah, then I did a search for it... and the website has nothing.... I mean, quite literally nothing to let me know what it is all about.

Honestly there isnt much on BCS either... but I have found a helluva lot more than what I can scrape up on Brewtroller.

I also like the wireless PC control that BCS provides.

Plus, Brewtroller looks really... well, unrefined. I like BCS because it is a box, I plug in three temp probes that they sell for the system, I send outputs to my SSRs, that is it.

Brewtroller is an option that I have considered but it is pretty "geeky".
It appears to be very flexible and in time looks like it will be a great product.
I also believe it is currently a great product for a select group of folks that have a sound knowledge of electronics. They are working to make it so an EE is not required, but in my opinion they still have some work to do.

Ed

Ed

 

[The Pol]

Brewtroller is an option that I have considered but it is pretty "geeky".
It appears to be very flexible and in time looks like it will be a great product.
I also believe it is currently a great product for a select group of folks that have a sound knowledge of electronics. They are working to make it so an EE is not required, but in my opinion they still have some work to do.

Ed

Ed

Looks very DIY and unrefined. BCS needs you to plug in your temp probes, that happen to be adjustable in length... and to plug in your SSR outputs, that is it. The web based interface, IMO, is very nice!

 

[Bsquared]

Have you posted your questions on the ECC forum? They are really helpful there, and there a lot of BSC users here too on HBT.

I have not got to the point of programing a system, I have just been working in manual mode,I hope to try soon to set up a program for a single infusion, but I need to get some solenoid valves.

The way I see it for 180 you get 6 functions, How much are PIDs? I payed 40 for the one in my 7cf freezer. so for 160 you can get 4 controls and you don't get the interface.

 

[CodeRage]

Okay Pol take notes. With 4500W LD I am occasionally getting burst of steam at 100% dutycyle. When it gets closer to 170 it will regularly flash boil causing some priming issues. So when running that 9kw, expect to see flash boils somewhat sooner.

I think the answer to this is to limit the max duty cycle as the MLT temps increase.

I was able to go from 100 deg hot tap water to 160 in 13 minutes. So I am pretty impressed with it. For some reason the auto tune function worked like crap with the t parameter set to 0. It was overshooting into la la land and not recovering.

It over shoots by a degree and then settles in so it needs some tweaking, but at 4500W I ended up with.

P=15
I=30
D=5

 

[The Pol]

When running at 9kw I will have it at max flow... my pump is before the RIMS tube, which may help with the priming and cavitation issue.

I wonder if I will have more flash boiling at 9kw or not? I mean I will be spreading it out over 2x the surface area as the 4500W element that you are using, in a RIMS tube that is over 2x as large in total volume.

It will be interesting to see what happens, lots of testing will have to happen for certain.

I appreciate your willingness to experiment.

 

[CodeRage]

I am running 4500W at max flow too.

I really can't explain it to be honest. I don't know if maybe small steam bubbles are collecting into the pump head gradually slowing flow enough for the water to saturate or what. What is strange is my temp probe barely registers it when it starts.

This is my best educated guess though. The flow over the element is laminar so there a small layer that is getting super heated and mixes with the mash by the time it gets to the temp probe, which is after the pump. Uhg.... Think I just figured out my problem. May need to mount the temp probe closer to the element. Just ignore me, I'm going to go hit the keezer..

 

[The Pol]

I am running 4500W at max flow too.

I really can't explain it to be honest. I don't know if maybe small steam bubbles are collecting into the pump head gradually slowing flow enough for the water to saturate or what. What is strange is my temp probe barely registers it when it starts.

This is my best educated guess though. The flow over the element is laminar so there a small layer that is getting super heated and mixes with the mash by the time it gets to the temp probe, which is after the pump. Uhg.... Think I just figured out my problem. May need to mount the temp probe closer to the element. Just ignore me, I'm going to go hit the keezer..

Hey, I do appreciate all pf the info, and I am going to have plenty of field testing to do before I dump my first sack of grain into the MLT... I know.

I like the BCS temp probes, as they are 4" long and adjustable in length, so I can get them down in there if need be.

My idea is this...

MLT flows to the pump, with a monitoring temp. probe before the pump.
Pump forces flow through the RIMS heater
At the immediate exit of the RIMS tube, a controlling temp. probe
Then it flows back to the MLT for another circuit

 

[The Pol]

Okay Pol take notes. With 4500W LD I am occasionally getting burst of steam at 100% dutycyle. When it gets closer to 170 it will regularly flash boil causing some priming issues. So when running that 9kw, expect to see flash boils somewhat sooner.

I think the answer to this is to limit the max duty cycle as the MLT temps increase.

I was able to go from 100 deg hot tap water to 160 in 13 minutes. So I am pretty impressed with it. For some reason the auto tune function worked like crap with the t parameter set to 0. It was overshooting into la la land and not recovering.

It over shoots by a degree and then settles in so it needs some tweaking, but at 4500W I ended up with.

P=15
I=30
D=5

DO you think that these overshoots were made worse by the location of the temp probe too far downline from the RIMS tube?

 

[Hermit]

Not really worried no, I was supposed to have died from my last build.

The connection to the rig will be from the underside of the sculpture, completely shielded from water. You wont even be able to see the connection when the cord is not connected. VERY clean...

Just curious? Do you use twist lock?

 

[Hermit]

That wont save you from one of those moments after a long brew day and want to wrap thing up and unplug the brewery first and accidentally touch a blade on the connector.

Or in your excitement to get started you plug it into the wall fist and whip it around like a regular extension cord and hit your self or some one else.

aesthetic are nice but a cord with 2 male ends is a Darwin award that will eventually happen. Seriously, Get a male receptacle for the brewery or put a male pig tail on it.

Given this theory I could never use a power saw or drive a car because something COULD happen if I did something wrong.

 

[remilard]

Given this theory I could never use a power saw or drive a car because something COULD happen if I did something wrong.

I would hope you aren't using a saw or a car with design features that are dangerous where a safe feature offering identical functionality was available.

 

[The Pol]

Just curious? Do you use twist lock?

It isnt built yet...

Just $3k of parts basically, that need to be threaded together HA HA

I KNOW that double male ends is not "accepted" But, like I said, it isnt a connection that is going to me made and broken during brew days. It would only be broken when I wheel the rig indoors to display it or store it.

This design issue is the least of my worries at this point, I have bigger fish to fry at this time.

The safety issue is a valid point... so is mixing high voltage and large amounts of water in a DIY system that is wired by laymen

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Given this theory I could never use a power saw or drive a car because something COULD happen if I did something wrong.

I try to avoid both after consuming my favorite home brew for the previous 4-6 hours.

Pol is aware of the hazards... I'm sure he will plan and/or design accordingly.

Ed

 

[The Pol]

I started posting questions over at the BCS forum... so, if I get any good info that I think will help here, I will pass it along.

 

[Hermit]

It isnt built yet...

Just $3k of parts basically, that need to be threaded together HA HA

I KNOW that double male ends is not "accepted" But, like I said, it isnt a connection that is going to me made and broken during brew days. It would only be broken when I wheel the rig indoors to display it or store it.

This design issue is the least of my worries at this point, I have bigger fish to fry at this time.

The safety issue is a valid point... so is mixing high voltage and large amounts of water in a DIY system that is wired by laymen

My only 'concern' would be it popping out of the socket when it isn't supposed to. That is why I asked about twist locks. Otherwise, build a cover, have a strap you have to unscrew or SOME means of holding it in place while in use.