Battle of the Homebrew Stores, Part II

[ArcaneXor]

A year or so I ago I posted a comparison of homebrew store prices for a fairly typical ingredient/equipment order. I thought it was high time to repeat that research, this time using ingredients for three all-grain kits (a Koelsch, an IPA and a Smoked Porter), along with 2 smack packs, 1 satchel of dry yeast and 1 lb of light DME to make starters. I ignored water salts/yeast nutrients, etc. Substitutions were made when necessary.

The total comes to 30.25 lbs of various domestic, British and German unmilled grains and 6.5 oz of pellet hops from the same countries of origin.

In detail:

9 lbs Maris Otter
8.5 lbs German Pils
6.5 lbs Domestic 2-Row
2 lbs Weyermann Smoked
2.5 lbs German Vienna
1.25 lbs German Pale Wheat
1 lbs Chocolate Malt
1 lbs Briess C-60
0.5 lbs British Medium Crystal 55-65
0.25 lbs British Light Crystal 15
0.25 lbs Carafa Special III
3.7 oz Simcoe
1.35 oz German Magnum
1.15 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh
0.3 oz EKG
Wyeast Koelsch
Wyeast Denny’s Favorite 50
Safale US-05
1 lbs light DME for starters

Total cost shipped to north central Florida for this order were (i.e. the price includes the shipping costs listed below):

Brewmaster's Warehouse: $88.11, including widely available 10% off discount code ($97.12 without the code; incl. shipping $6.99)
Austin Homebrew Supply: $101.71* (incl. shipping: $7.99)
Rebel Brewing: $102.21 (incl. shipping: 16.34)
Midwest Supplies: $103.60 (incl. shipping: $20.75)
Northern Brewer: $112.54 (incl. shipping: $7.99)
Chi Company: $129.34, including current 5% Christmas discount (incl. shipping: $53.88)

*since free shipping kicks in above $100, you could essentially order an additional $6.28 in ingredients free and end up with a total of $100 instead of the $101.71 indicated here, which includes the $7.99 shipping

BMW, Midwest and Northern Brewer required the fewest ingredient substitutions. Picking grains from AHS was difficult since they don't specify the maltster and sometimes not the region of origin. They do not appear to stock British crystal malts. Except for Northern Brewer, no store specified the cultivar of the Hallertauer hops. Milling is free from all stores except Chi (+$0.95) and Northern Brewer (surcharge varies). No store had the British C-15 in stock (Muntons makes it).

Of course, your mileage may vary, especially depending on where you live, consider that Midwest and Chi charge actual shipping rates (although Chi's shipping charges were more than twice of Midwest's).

While I usually shop from the LHBS, I have had good experiences with all of the above except Chi, which I have not bought anything from. Best-designed web sites, in my opinion, are AHS and BMW; they let you customize amounts much easier than the others, and also allow for precise amounts of grain instead of having to round up to the next full (or 1/2) pound.

Substitutions: All stores: Briess C20 instead of Munton's C-15. AHS: Debittered Black for Carafa Special III. U.S. Magnum instead of German Magnum. Chi: White labs for Wyeast, Rye malt for Weyermann smoked (I didn't see any smoked malts on their site, so the sub is pretty arbitrary), domestic Vienna instead of German Vienna, Chocolate for Carafa Special III, 1.4 lbs Alexander's kicker instead of 1 lb DME. In several stores I also subbed domestic white wheat for the Weyermann pale wheat, but I didn't write down where - it's a fairy minor substitution since the wheat is basically an adjunct for head retention in all of these brews. Rebel: Crystal Maris Otter for Crystal 55-65, Carastan for Crystal 15.

 

[JNish]

Looks like MoreBeer comes in at $101.69 using their pre-made kits for American IPA, Porter, and Kolsh. Yeast includes White Labs WLP001 and WLP029 and SafAle US05. And 1lb of DME.

Free shipping is included for orders over $59, but not sure how that will work with the yeast since it estimates about 8 days to ship out to FL. I can't find the quantities of grains or hops to make comparisons to your order.

It sounds like you were ordering recipes from scratch rather than pre-made kits. Perhaps you could post them so we could make our own price comparisons?

 

[logan3825]

This would be much more useful to more people if you showed shipping costs for each. Midwest in particular I know can vary quite a bit on shipping. I have never paid over $19 but have heard of other people who would have to pay $46 for a starter kit and a few other items.

 

[Frankfurtvr4]

Can LHBS compete with online prices? We don't have one in El Paso and the closest one to my house has extremely high prices compared to online ordering.

 

[Ace_Club]

This would be much more useful to more people if you showed shipping costs for each. Midwest in particular I know can vary quite a bit on shipping. I have never paid over $19 but have heard of other people who would have to pay $46 for a starter kit and a few other items.

+1. It would be good to post items ordered/substituted, cost of each, and shipping costs for each store (maybe a spreadsheet?). That way others can compare their favorite online stores, too!

(Not trying to crap all over the OP's info, as I find it very useful and thank him for the comparison.)

 

[rico567]

First, I don't have an LHBS. Second, comparing prices alone isn't necessarily valid. Part of the reason I order from Midwest is the accuracy on even a complex order, and the speed and quality of service on the few times I've needed it. So as far as I'm concerned, 5-10% mas o menos isn't going to persuade me to go elsewhere.

 

[Ace_Club]

Completely true. Whenever I order, I almost always pull up my four usual sites (Midwest, Northern, Austin and BMW) to compare the final price. For recipes, it's almost always BMW. For lone ingredients and equipment, it's a toss up between the other three. For instance, because Midwest charges actual shipping, they are better for ordering small items. They also have a good deal on bulk corn sugar for my Apfelwein needs.

The nice thing about the internet is you can easily compare from the comfort of your home, in a short period of time.

 

[HickoryMike]

If money wasn't so tight, I would definitely throw more business to Northern Brewer. I LOVE The Brewing Network and BrewingTV. I love their catalogs and their business culture. They do so much for the brewing community that I wouldn't hesitate to give them an extra 10%.

Currently BMW gets almost all my business. Their prices can't be beat, the customer service is incredible, and because they are so close orders arrive within 2 days.

 

[TonyR]

I place most of my orders with Northern Brewer. The ground shipping is quick for me, and I know that the products I get are of good quality. Finding all the hops+grains can be a bit time consuming on their site. As I move towards more all-grain batches, I think I will try the brew builder from BMW.

 

[Toecutter]

I'm fortunate enough to be able to walk over at lunch to SteinFillers in Long Beach across the street from my work. always has a big supply of grain@ $1.09 a lb for base malts & if you join their club for $15 a year, you get 15% discount.

I also have a MoreBeer in Riverside, about 8 miles from my house, and they have a good supply of other things I might need , and their yeast is cheaper so I just drive over.

I have been buying my Hopps from Chi @ $1 an oz, which is less than 1/2 price of the other two, but your paying shipping. and last time I purchased, some one compromised his network, stole my identity/CC information, and ordered some computer hardware from an online supplier. I was able stop it but had about $500 missing from my checking account for a few days while it was investigated, and the sale reversed. really had me concerned, money doesnt come easy these days.

 

[ultravista]

ArcaneXor - what was the shipping for Midwest? They do not offer free or discounted shipping; therefore the three kits would be $20+ for shipping.

I am in Las Vegas, NV 89123. Shipping for two kits and a few misc items was over $25.

 

[AnOldUR]

I've been a pretty loyal Brewmasters Warehouse customer.
Thanks for confirming that it's the right dicision.


edit
And it's more than price. Ed goes out of his way to cater to his customers.
. . . but I'm looking forward to the bulk hop pricing.

 

[ndsgr]

If money wasn't so tight, I would definitely throw more business to Northern Brewer. I LOVE The Brewing Network and BrewingTV. I love their catalogs and their business culture. They do so much for the brewing community that I wouldn't hesitate to give them an extra 10%.

Currently BMW gets almost all my business. Their prices can't be beat, the customer service is incredible, and because they are so close orders arrive within 2 days.

BMW is a brewing network sponsor as well. You know, "I'm a pretty techy guy..."

 

[gicts]

How do the prices compare from last year?

 

[Houblon]

Gotta ask how many people place orders for 1 or 2 batchs?

I buy bulk for hops/grain and keep a steady supply of needed yeast, brewing on a piecemeal basis cost too much in time/money.

Bulk grain > 3-4x per yr of full sacks(pils/MO/Munich) which leaves only speciality grains- 5lbs of what I use the most is plenty. Right now I'm waiting to place next yrs hop order - 30+/-lbs will cover the entire yr.

Add up shipping cost & time, its a no brainer buying bulk is the best option

 

[TonyR]

I only buy ingredients for one or two batches at a time. I don't usually brew the same things repeatedly, so having extra random doesn't help me much. I do keep an extra couple packs of S-04 in the fridge in case I get a bad pack or forget to order yeast.

 

[tnbrewer371]

I'm a strictly loyal customer of rebelbrewer.com its just right down the road to me but I have friends that brew that live forty minutes and they get their supplies shipped from rebelbrewer for a flat rate. Its worth at least a look, the guys that run it are very knowledgeable and always answer all my emails very quickly about anything I need to know. Check them out guys and gals!

 

[ArcaneXor]

I have added more details above. I didn't do MoreBeer or RebelBrewer since it got pretty late last night. I may add them later. I can also price things at my local HBS in comparison.

 

[Yooper]

I have added more details above. I didn't do MoreBeer or RebelBrewer since it got pretty late last night. I may add them later. I can also price things at my local HBS in comparison.

I've never ordered from Rebelbrewer- I forget about them! I'd like to give them a try. I've been very happy with every one of the online brewstores you listed, so I try to "spread it around". I ordered more wine things from midwest, but now brewmaster's warehouse was wine and cheese items, so I may order wine items there, too.

I've been in person to the new Midwest store, and I thought it was great. Good selection and great customer service with friendly advice and help. And yes, I did let a strapping young worker haul my sacks of grain and frozen grapes to my car for me!

The other stores I've ordered from online, and been very happy with as well.

 

[dvdanny]

I love Seven Bridges co-op. They sell organic supplies for a very good price and their service in-store is second to none.

 

[logan3825]

Thank you for splitting out the shipping. I don't really have a LHBS. 30 miles to the nearest, their selection sucks and they are more expensive. 30 to the other and they are near Camp Randall stadium in Madison. They are not cheap either. Bottom line is neither is convenient.

I don't order less than 3 batches at a time anymore. I still extract brew and don't really have a regular brew so bulk isn't something I am really looking at yet.

 

[JNish]

Okay, updated with actual grains, MoreBeer comes out to $99.72, free shipping on orders over $59.

Unfortunately the are currently out of Maris Otter, but I bet if you wait a couple days it will be back in stock. But good to see that MoreBeer is on par with the cheaper HBS, particularly since they are just across the bay from me

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I placed a Cybersex Monday order from BMW and got the order really quickly. I was very pleased with them.

I don't use too many hard to find specialty grains and I have four HBS within driving distance (10 min-45 min) with enough selection to cover most of what I ever need, so I don't do a lot of online ordering anymore. My local options are really cheap and there's no shipping to worry about. The only downside is that the LHBS always charge a lot for hops so I end up ordering those online or source out of my bulk supply.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I've dealt with Rebelbrewer several times as well. They've always done well by me, and their prices and selection are generally very good.

 

[Calder]

Do the same check for Rebel.

I always compare prices, and I always end up buying from Rebel. Make sure you input your state and zip code for the shipping costs. If you only enter one, it reverts to a more expensive shipping option.

I buy hops in bulk from Hops Direct so don't get them from Rebel. Also when you buy more than 10 lbs of a base grain from Rebel you get an additional 10% off. I also buy several items at my LHBS because they are cheaper.

I usually run my order out to the max weight for cheap ground, so I'm ordering 60+ lbs at a time. Shipping/lb gets cheaper the more you buy.

I think this is a great comparision, but other's like me who buy in bulk rather than for particular recipies probably find it more cost effective buying different things from different places.

 

[Brewmasters Warehouse]

I've been a pretty loyal Brewmasters Warehouse customer.
Thanks for confirming that it's the right dicision.


edit
And it's more than price. Ed goes out of his way to cater to his customers.
. . . but I'm looking forward to the bulk hop pricing.

Bulk hops are now priced out for you.

Thanks,

Ed

 

[bovineblitz]

Gotta ask how many people place orders for 1 or 2 batchs?

I buy bulk for hops/grain and keep a steady supply of needed yeast, brewing on a piecemeal basis cost too much in time/money.

Bulk grain > 3-4x per yr of full sacks(pils/MO/Munich) which leaves only speciality grains- 5lbs of what I use the most is plenty. Right now I'm waiting to place next yrs hop order - 30+/-lbs will cover the entire yr.

Add up shipping cost & time, its a no brainer buying bulk is the best option

I buy ingredients for 2-3 batches at a time. I can't mill grain in my apartment for many reasons, one being the dust, another being storage space for bulk grain. I typically order my grain pre-crushed from BMW and get bulk hops from farmhouse. Yeast varies depending on the strain needed and whether or not I have some banked.

This seems to be as economical as I can get without bulk grain purchases.

edit: oooh, BMW bulk hops, nice!

 

[maxamuus]

With Free shipping @ AHS and BMW's 10% coupons they are my LHBS.

 

[Malticulous]

For me it's not always about who's cheapest it's about who has all that I want. I usually have to order from two or three places to line up a string of brews anyway.

 

[DubBrew]

I've ordered from all of those listed including Rebel and MoreBeer. I was loyal to Midwest for a good while, but recently I've been disappointed with their speed and customer service. I gave rebel brewer a go and was amazed at the speed of delivery and the prices are are competative with the best I could find. I reccomend giving them a go.

 

[Malticulous]

Rebel has best grain selection I've seen. Shipping is a killer for me but they have so many great specialty malts I have to order from them anyway. Sacks of grain have to come from someplace closer and hops from someplace by bulk. I'm looking more to stock my brewery than buy a single recipe. For single recipes I like BMW.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Added Rebel Brewer.

 

[sjlammer]

For me it's not always about who's cheapest it's about who has all that I want. I usually have to order from two or three places to line up a string of brews anyway.

+1 to this. I was going to order from Brewmasters warehouse because i have always received great service. unfortunately i needed medium toast oak cubes, which they didn't stock. I called ed to make sure he wasn't getting them in, to no avail. So I ordered from Austin. The service was good from them too.

 

[Huff360]

I once asked my dad why he went to the local Hobby Store and paid nearly twice the 'internet price' for stuff. His response was "Cause when I am at the flying field and need a 10 cent part, I want the Hobby Shop to still be in business."

Not trying to say 'don't buy from the internet guys'. I do all the time. I'm just saying that it does make sense to support your LHBS when you can. On brew day, when you notice that your dog chewed up your stopper, you'll have somewhere to run.

Too bad my LHBS is Rebel and it's two hours away....

 

[BurntOrngeLonghorn84]

I'm for competitive pricing, but putting companies at price wars disgusts me.

If you want to pinch pennies, drop the hobby and buy busch.

 

[maxamuus]

I'm for competitive pricing, but putting companies at price wars disgusts me.

If you want to pinch pennies, drop the hobby and buy busch.

Perhaps you didn't read the OP. The least expensive delivered @ 95.10 vs 183.22 is hardly pennies.

 

[bovineblitz]

I once asked my dad why he went to the local Hobby Store and paid nearly twice the 'internet price' for stuff. His response was "Cause when I am at the flying field and need a 10 cent part, I want the Hobby Shop to still be in business."

Not trying to say 'don't buy from the internet guys'. I do all the time. I'm just saying that it does make sense to support your LHBS when you can. On brew day, when you notice that your dog chewed up your stopper, you'll have somewhere to run.

Too bad my LHBS is Rebel and it's two hours away....

$$$ talks, and loudly.

That's my only issue with my LHBS.

 

[ArcaneXor]

I'm for competitive pricing, but putting companies at price wars disgusts me.

I won't dignify that crap with a response. You obviously don't get the point of this post.

Perhaps you didn't read the OP. The least expensive delivered @ 95.10 vs 183.22 is hardly pennies.

You didn't read it either. The shipping cost is included in the price I stated; just listed separately for people who asked for it.

 

[IffyG]

Don't take this as me being an ass, just making a helpful suggestion.

Given that you have only presented shipping to one location (Florida) you might be presenting a misleading representation of the costs. The one thing that jumps out at me is the shipping price for the Chi-Company order. At least to me, these numbers don't really mean anything because any company that doesn't charge flat rate shipping will have a wide variability in total shipping price depending upon where you are having it shipped to.

Without dumping stuff into any carts, I would think the prices would all be in the same range give or take 10 bucks if it was shipping to Chicago and Chi-Company might end up cheaper if it was shipping to Oregon.

Edit: looks like my point was already made...

 

[ArcaneXor]

Don't take this as me being an ass, just making a helpful suggestion.

Given that you have only presented shipping to one location (Florida) you might be presenting a misleading representation of the costs. The one thing that jumps out at me is the shipping price for the Chi-Company order. At least to me, these numbers don't really mean anything because any company that doesn't charge flat rate shipping will have a wide variability in total shipping price depending upon where you are having it shipped to.

Without dumping stuff into any carts, I would think the prices would all be in the same range give or take 10 bucks if it was shipping to Chicago and Chi-Company might end up cheaper if it was shipping to Oregon.

Edit: looks like my point was already made...

Of course. The point wasn't to tell everyone "Buy here, it's cheapest, and the others suck". I clearly stated that YMMV in the OP. Neither am I going to do the homework for everyone on the forum and enter a bunch of different zip codes.

It's just an informal study of how various online homebrew stores that cater to a national customer base compare for this specific scenario, i.e. what the variance is. And the result is clearly that with the exception of BMW (discount coupon) and Chi (very high shipping to FL), the prices are very closely clustered. I thought that might be interesting to people, especially since my first comparison was well-received.

In other words, support your local homebrew shop. If you have to buy online, go with good service and the best ingredient availability, since you only save a couple of bucks by choosing one supplier over any other unless the shipping, due to your location, skews the results.