Beer Geek Breakfast Stout too roasty? can you offset this?

[Christoff]

I came across a beer kit for Mikkeler's Beer Geek Breakfast Stout and the reviews were pretty good. This sent me down a rabbit hole and it appears people raving about it. So naturally, I found a recipe (see below) and brewed it this weekend. Against my better judgement I didn't tame the roasted malts because i wanted a sense of what the beer was supposed to taste like. I generally keep my roasted malts even lower than recommended but since I began brewing my own beer, my tastes for other beers has really expanded. After tasting this very green beer (fermentation is nearly done), I am beginning to think it's going to be way too much for me. I am going to let it do it's thing but this has me curious now about how processes all work with each other. However, there isn't much online beyond a few facts that aren't expanded upon. (see my grain bill, etc. below)

the questions I have been relentlessly googling because now I am just curious and want to learn:

Does ABV actually offset roastiness? If so, would adding some cane sugar at this point help to balance it given it didn't attenuate much?

Would using 1/2 of S-05 ( I have an open one taking up space in my fridge) attenuate it further and increase the alcohol enough to balance (no sugar added)

Does sweetness counter roastiness? Would the sugar option above do both, increase the ABV as well as adding some residual sweetness? I have some muscavado sugar I am needing an excuse to use.

I read vanilla beans can help. I have some high quality powder I can use.

Is there anything you can do in a secondary, like fruit, spices, cacao nibs, soaked bourbon oak chips I have burning a hole in the container, offset any upleasantries with the roastiness?

I originally wanted to add frozen cherries and toasted cacao nibs to 1 gallon to see what comes of it. Am I wasting expensive ingredients on this beer? (I have a Northern English mild that might work with these instead)

How is this beer so successful if it nearly doubles the percent of the roasted malt everyone seems to recommend. It is seems to surpass most recommendations on this site. (assuming my math is actually correct )

Will aging settle this down any? I can throw it in a keg for a while and let it do its thing.

My recipe is different than the one in this thread because of what I had on hand (so my keeping to the recipe wasn't really keeping to the recipe. I get it, but I was trying to stick to the roastiness part). I also scaled down to a half batch (2.5 gal). My BIAB efficiency also tends to be poor.

2.4 lbs 2 row
1.6 lbs pilsner
1.97 lbs oats
0.90 lbs munich
0.62 lbs weyerman german smoked (horrible crush)
0.98 lbs chocolate (~400 or 450 can't remember)*
0.16 lbs Black patent*
0.44 Roasted Barley

There is a bit of wheat dme from the partial starter i did.
* I oopsed weighing these I think so I didn't help my cause.

Amarillo 0.6 oz 45 min
Northern Brewer 0.1 oz 45 min
Cascade 0.33 oz 15 min
Amarillo 0.6 oz 8 min
Northern Brewer 0.1 oz 8 min

1/2 Windsor

I think the mash temp got high, I am having terrible luck with thermometers (just bought a digital one). The floating therm changed constantly and read anywhere from 148F to 159F.

OG 1.067 (Hydrometer)
Current: ~1.034 (Tilt) and fairly stable for 12 hours (I know this is not that long but in my experience with Windsor, which is one of my go to's, it won't change much from here, maybe 1 or 2 points)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/beer-geek-breakfast-stout-clone.276756/

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I use rather a lot of roasted malts for stouts/porters, the brown+black and in the case of stouts, amber malts easily approach the 30% mark combined.
However I always let them age a few months and the slightly hard roastiness always smooths out.
Keeping the AA low-ish (low 70's) also help the beer "handle" high amounts of roast.

 

[Jag75]

Sometimes, Roasted Barley is added later in the mash . I wouldn't add sugar . I think the nibs and vanilla beans is the way I'd go. This beer will probably be better aged .

 

[Abhishek Dewan]

Add oats tea, the smoothness can help.

 

[tracer bullet]

Agreed it doesn't seem to be a ton of roasted malts. Agree you have to let it sit for a while.

I've learned to never, ever, ever make a judgement on a beer until it's been kegged or bottled for at least a week. So much changes especially the yeast settling out.

 

[Christoff]

Agreed it doesn't seem to be a ton of roasted malts. Agree you have to let it sit for a while.

I've learned to never, ever, ever make a judgement on a beer until it's been kegged or bottled for at least a week. So much changes especially the yeast settling out.

That has been one of my recent lessons. This sent me down a thought process that I was intrigued by and couldn't really find information online that answered any of my curiosities. I am growing out of my noob tendencies of panicking and playing with stuff. I was reading that most people feel like you shouldn't go over 9-15% of roasted malts, which this is over. Again, assuming my math in the middle of the night wasn't wrong. I have a keg waiting for this to live in for a bit. Should I carbonate right away or does aging work better without carbonating (I am not going to prime).

 

[Christoff]

Sometimes, Roasted Barley is added later in the mash . I wouldn't add sugar . I think the nibs and vanilla beans is the way I'd go. This beer will probably be better aged .

For some reason this didn't occur to me until after I brewed. But then again this is how experience helps. it just has a harsh burnt after taste that I am not super impressed with. But I am only going to move ~1 gal and experiment with it. The rest I will let it do it's think and see how it turns out.

 

[tracer bullet]

That has been one of my recent lessons. This sent me down a thought process that I was intrigued by and couldn't really find information online that answered any of my curiosities. I am growing out of my noob tendencies of panicking and playing with stuff. I was reading that most people feel like you shouldn't go over 9-15% of roasted malts, which this is over. Again, assuming my math in the middle of the night wasn't wrong. I have a keg waiting for this to live in for a bit. Should I carbonate right away or does aging work better without carbonating (I am not going to prime).

Ahh, yeah, off the top 1.5 out of 8.5 or something it is more than it looks like. Half pound of each may have been perfect.

Still, it'll be OK, just may take a while. That's homebrewing for you. Many lessons to learn.

A week or so after bottling / kegging it could still be "too roasty" but I guarantee it'll be different and better than right now.

 

[Deadalus]

I'm a big stout fan, I usually have a pound of roasted in 6 gallons with a little black patent malt. Mine usually smooths out 4-6 weeks. I have been on the fence to tweak it slightly lower but then it gets better later. You might be tasting the chocolate malt there. I've never brewed anything with that much chocolate malt. I often use light amounts for color besides as a regular ingredient for other recipes and I have noticed a little background roastiness on some lighter beers when I have added an ounce more than needed.

If you were looking to alter it, perhaps a little lactose would smooth it out. I've only used it in an oatmeal stout myself, I had it down to 8 oz in six gallons the last time I brewed it. Maybe 4 oz or less here.

Time does work. You also have that smoked malt in there, I haven't used that one.

 

[Christoff]

I'm a big stout fan, I usually have a pound of roasted in 6 gallons with a little black patent malt. Mine usually smooths out 4-6 weeks. I have been on the fence to tweak it slightly lower but then it gets better later. You might be tasting the chocolate malt there. I've never brewed anything with that much chocolate malt. I often use light amounts for color besides as a regular ingredient for other recipes and I have noticed a little background roastiness on some lighter beers when I have added an ounce more than needed.

If you were looking to alter it, perhaps a little lactose would smooth it out. I've only used it in an oatmeal stout myself, I had it down to 8 oz in six gallons the last time I brewed it. Maybe 4 oz or less here.

Time does work. You also have that smoked malt in there, I haven't used that one.

Thanks. I was reading that pale chocolate lends that burnt flavour more so I tried to stick with the recipe but used chocolate malt. But it's still harsh. I am intrigued by this recipe however so I am curious to play with it. If I had realized how easily "too much" can occur with chocolate I would have scraped out the excess that fell out of the bag. The crush on the smoked malt looked like someone split them in half individually and called it a day. I don't know if it will cut through the bitterness. Any ideas that aren't dairy derived?

 

[hottpeper13]

I've found the mash pH to be very important to the grain to glass time. When a pH of 5.0-5.3, (which happens when using those dark grains) can take up to 8 months to mellow. Purely for research I mashed an RIS (10%) at 5.6 and put it on tap at 6 weeks. Pulling a sample at 1 week intervals, the harshness was gone at 2 months,but hit it's stride in 4 months, way soon for a big one. My 1.050 stouts take that long.
Only did this once but have a bitter going for the yeast cake to pitch on my next Black Friday beer and will do the high pH mash. This ones going in a barrel so it won't be apples to apples,but it's also 13.5%.

 

[bwible]

Oak aging or bourbon oak aging sound good to me. But I like oak aged beers.

The real way to fix it if it really is too much is to brew another beer that does not have any roast and blend the 2. Anything else you are just trying to cover something up with a different flavor. Or you can age it and hope for the best.

 

[Christoff]

I've found the mash pH to be very important to the grain to glass time. When a pH of 5.0-5.3, (which happens when using those dark grains) can take up to 8 months to mellow. Purely for research I mashed an RIS (10%) at 5.6 and put it on tap at 6 weeks. Pulling a sample at 1 week intervals, the harshness was gone at 2 months,but hit it's stride in 4 months, way soon for a big one. My 1.050 stouts take that long.
Only did this once but have a bitter going for the yeast cake to pitch on my next Black Friday beer and will do the high pH mash. This ones going in a barrel so it won't be apples to apples,but it's also 13.5%.

Interesting. I think the pH was 5.12 so I will keep that in mind

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

I'd say a pound (well, 0.98 lb) of chocolate malt plus a half-pound (0.44 lb) of roasted barley would be quite a lot in a 5 gallon batch. In a 2.5 gal batch, that seems like it's going to be extremely harsh.

 

[Christoff]

I'd say a pound (well, 0.98 lb) of chocolate malt plus a half-pound (0.44 lb) of roasted barley would be quite a lot in a 5 gallon batch. In a 2.5 gal batch, that seems like it's going to be extremely harsh.

Yeah, I didn’t realize it until after I brewed it. I’m still figuring out all the malts and I had my apprehensions but stuck with the recipe, which apparently is excellent. I’m in experimentation mode with recipes etc as I learn how they all operate and taste so it’s not catastrophic. I just got curious what you can do with it after the fact as a learning opportunity. I’m about to keg it and see where it’s at.

 

[Christoff]

Update: This beer is shaping up to be delicious! I just kegged it the other day and I am going to leave it in the keg for another month before tapping it. But if the bit I tried is any indication, I am going to like this one. The lingering taste is a bit on the roasty side, but it's offset nicely by the level of sweetness and mouthfeel. I am guessing once it's carbonated, it will be even better. I can see why this beer was such a hit. Thanks for the help here.

 

[Christoff]

Had my first full beer. It’s an awesome beer but as expected it’s pretty roasty on the backend. After about three quarters of a beer I was struggling as the aftertaste accumulated a bit, but the struggle was mainly because I like it subtler than that. Next round should be fantastic.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

I've found the mash pH to be very important to the grain to glass time. When a pH of 5.0-5.3, (which happens when using those dark grains) can take up to 8 months to mellow. Purely for research I mashed an RIS (10%) at 5.6 and put it on tap at 6 weeks. Pulling a sample at 1 week intervals, the harshness was gone at 2 months,but hit it's stride in 4 months, way soon for a big one. My 1.050 stouts take that long.

Interesting, my ridiculous tap water has HCO3 at 259 ppm, and since I'm cheap and phosphoric acid is expensive, I'm always adding just enough so that Brewer's Friend says my mash pH will be 5.59 -- anyways, I've been pleasantly surprised at how fast my big stouts start tasting great.

 

[hottpeper13]

Mine is 400 ppm and I use 50/50 house /RO so my dark ones come in at 5.4-5.6