B. Nektar Zombie Killer Clone

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decoleur said:
Flimish-viking,

the recipe from #24 is a pretty good start for a smaller batch.

-----
3 Gallons Indian Summer Apple Juice
1 Pack Danstar Nottingham Dry Yeast
17 oz. Tart Cherry Juice
1 lb. Orange Blossom Honey


-d
Click to expand...


From looking at the post(#24) I see this was based off my recipe but it looks like they cut the juice in half. My recipe is...

5gal Cider
1L Tart Cherry juice
1# honey
Nottingham

Someone posted a pic of my recipe next to the real thing earlier in the thread and it's pretty spot on. Some advice for those making this...

1) If your going to try making this you need to use a quality honey. Can't stress that enough. No cheap $1 store bought crap. It doesn't have to be orange blossom either, I've made this using a number of different local honeys all with success. The key is quality.
2) Try slightly warming the honey before adding. Don't overdo it just warm it enough to make it easier to dissolve.
3) I think keeping the carbonation on the lower side of things is best on this. Somewhere around 2.0-2.2 or so. Too much CO2 really buries what the honey brings to the party. I've actually made this still and it's great with a bigger honey character IMO.
4) For those that bottle and pasteurize... 2 days is usually the sweet spot for me. Rarely longer.


Hope this helps!!
 
Flimish-viking said:
A big bow to give me such a great understandable answer on my question. I hope i will find all the ingredients here in belgium. Because cherry tart juice translated in dutch is the same as cherry pie juice 😛😜
Click to expand...

In Flanders we call tart/sour cherries "Krieken". Not sure if this exists as a pure juice, but you could always make your own.
 
I'm thinking of approaching this as a cyser - ferment the honey and cider then sweeten with tart cherry. Won't be a ZK clone, but maybe it'd age better than cider with honey sweetener. Hmmm... a 10% zombie killer.
 
I am going to try this tomorrow. I am only going to do a 1 gallon batch. Just for clarification, is this similar to the apple pie mead in that all of the liquid is apple juice and no water is added? I have a gallon of apple juice and was expecting to use all of it in a 1 gallon carboy. I am going to bottle for carbonation and this will be my first attempt at pasteurizing. 150 degrees after @ 2-3 days seems to be what this thread suggested. Sound right?
Saluti!
 
Just juice, no water. Never done a 1gal batch but I'm thinking 1gal in a 1 gal fermenter might not be enough headspace. I never need a blowoff rig when I make cider but it does still krausen up a little.
Its been a while but I think I used to do 10mins @ 160f for pasteurization. Usually after 2 days but occasionally it takes 3. Just don't try to push it bottle bombs are really dangerous. With the size batch your doing though I'd probably skip pasteurizing and throw everything in the fridge to crash the yeast.
 
I'm trying to approach this as a mead instead of a cider. I currently have 2 5 gallon batches going that I started 9 days ago.

Ingredients List: (5 gallons)

6 lbs Wildflower Honey
6 lbs mixed apples (de-cored and diced in a ninja blender)
1 pk Lalvin 71b-1122 wine yeast (rehydrate with go-ferm)
1 gallon apple juice (apple cider for second batch)
32 oz (about 1L) tart cherry juice
Crystal Geyser Spring Water (used to fill to 4 gallons)
4 tsp yeast nutrient
4 tsp yeast energizer
1oz american oak medium toast cubes

Steps:
1) De-core and dice apples in a blender, add to fermenter
2) Heat all the honey in 1 gallon spring water to make mixing easier, add to fermenter
3) Add spring water to 4 gallon mark on fermenter
4) Add 1 tsp yeast nutrient and 1 tsp yeast energizer to fermenter
5) Rehydrate yeast with go-ferm and add to fermenter
6) Stir all ingredients in the fermenter with a degasser
*Add SNA (1tsp each at 24, 48, and 72 hrs), gently stir fermenter
*Punch cap 3 times daily (add SNAs to middle cap punch)
7) After 1 week add 1 gallon apple juice (1 gallon cider in second batch)
8) After fermentation has stopped (or 2-3 weeks) transfer to secondary and back sweeten with 32 oz tart cherry juice
9) Add 1 oz american oak cubes into secondary (age until desired oak taste)

Fermentation stopped quickly after 5 days. OG: 1.071. FG: 1.010. Added 1 gallon apple juice on day 8 (1 gallon cider to second batch). Letting sit on apples and juice until the 3 week mark. Then transferring to secondary and adding tart cherry juice and oak cubes. Probably will let sit on oak cubes for 1 month then bulk age for 3-4 more months before bottling.
 
Wasn't sure if I'd do this again this year (pipeline is quite healthy :D) but, doggone it, the grocery store just had to go and put their preservative-free store brand apple juice on sale for $3/gallon.

I'll probably mix it up Sunday.
 
KeyWestBrewing said:
From looking at the post(#24) I see this was based off my recipe but it looks like they cut the juice in half. My recipe is...

5gal Cider
1L Tart Cherry juice
1# honey
Nottingham

Someone posted a pic of my recipe next to the real thing earlier in the thread and it's pretty spot on. Some advice for those making this...

1) If your going to try making this you need to use a quality honey. Can't stress that enough. No cheap $1 store bought crap. It doesn't have to be orange blossom either, I've made this using a number of different local honeys all with success. The key is quality.
2) Try slightly warming the honey before adding. Don't overdo it just warm it enough to make it easier to dissolve.
3) I think keeping the carbonation on the lower side of things is best on this. Somewhere around 2.0-2.2 or so. Too much CO2 really buries what the honey brings to the party. I've actually made this still and it's great with a bigger honey character IMO.
4) For those that bottle and pasteurize... 2 days is usually the sweet spot for me. Rarely longer.


Hope this helps!!
Click to expand...

Could I just divide everything by 5 if I wanted to make a gallon of this to give it a try?

Thanks
 
JonM said:
I mixed this up according to KeyWestBrewing's revised recipe and it tastes great and the color is perfect! I'm kegging, so I'll just add my $0.02.

I cold crashed the dry cider to get rid of the yeast, which meant I was adding honey to cold cider, and the honey didn't want to readily dissolve. I think I solved the problem by leaving the dip tube out (that step is really important because it will instantly clog if there's undissolved honey at the bottom of the keg), purging the keg with CO2, sealing it, and shaking the bejeebers out of it. I plan on leaving the dip tube out for a couple days and giving the keg a shake a couple times a day. I figure everything should be dissolved in a couple days to a week.
Click to expand...

Keywestbrewing, could you repost this recipe? Looked and couldn't find it.

Please and thanks!
 
Hey, has anyone tried to start with cider, add some honey to bump up the SG, ferment to dry and back sweeten with more honey and tart cherry juice? Also how is everyone bottle conditioning (sugar types and amount). Last but not least does anyone know anything about lavlin 71B-1122 I was sold it as a yeast for semi sweet mead
 
That's the method that I use, but don't add any honey at the beginning you can get a 5-6% depending on your OG. Just don't use 71B it will ferment out the malic acid leaving the cider flabby (no acidity). Just use a standard ale yeast.
 
OK so I used 71b how does that mean it would be sour? Should I add acid blend or malic acid by it self???
 
No it wouldn't be sour. Malic acid is the main acid in apple cider. If its gone the cider loses its natural bite. You could use an acid blend or malic acid if you could find it. But I would say taste is first and see where its at and adjust to your taste if needed.
 
zoso124 said:
That's the method that I use, but don't add any honey at the beginning you can get a 5-6% depending on your OG. Just don't use 71B it will ferment out the malic acid leaving the cider flabby (no acidity). Just use a standard ale yeast.
Click to expand...
71B does not metabolize ALL of the malic acid, it rarely even metabolizes 40% of it. Generally, you will see around a 20% reduction of malic acid using 71B. Which is actually a great reason to use it if you only have access to sharp apples.
 
Just mixed 6 gal fresh cider, 3lbs honey and 2.5 tsp of pectin enzyme... I’m going to back sweeten with 1L of tart cherry juice and 2lb honey.... I’m just trying to pick the best yeast... any suggestions?
 
Anyone do this again lately? I wanna do this ASAP but also wanna wait to get my cider from a local orchard when fall time comes around that we go to every year...any suggestions on any other store bought cider options or is any cider gonna be sufficient?
 
copper2hopper said:
Anyone do this again lately? I wanna do this ASAP but also wanna wait to get my cider from a local orchard when fall time comes around that we go to every year...any suggestions on any other store bought cider options or is any cider gonna be sufficient?
Click to expand...

I'm intending to attempt a clone sometime this fall, but first I have to get hold of some ZK and try to reverse engineer it. Unfortunately, it's not available here in CT so I have a road trip planned for the summer to a neighboring state that sells it.

B. Nektar is in Michigan, which is a big apple producer. They use local cider, Montmorency cherries and star thistle honey which are all Michigan products.
Since it's basically a cider sweetened with cherries and honey, the source of the cider is rather important.

Note however that the initial release of ZK was a cyser at 7% ABV, which implies that the honey and cider were fermented together. I'm probably going to attempt both styles and see which is better.
 
Last edited:
Ugh so glad I resurrected this thread. AND got such a timely response...thanks Maylar. Yeah it’s m definitely probably gonna pull the trigger on Michigan Star Thistle Honey on Amazon and then I found another website (traverse bay) that sells the Michigan Cherry juice. I agree and would like mine to be around a 7% so was thinking of adding some of that honey to primary to bump it up a little then of course back sweeten with the cherry juice and more honey. Just a hard time to find a decent fresh cider right now and I’m from northern Illinois so I figured “close enough” to Michigan to get it locally. Unless I can find a website to ship 6 gallons.
 
I have a 12 lb gallon of star thistle (Sleeping Bear Farms) and have seen Montmorency tart cherry juice and concentrates (Traverse Bay and Shoreline Fruit). I will use locally pressed orchard cider which starts to be available around October.

When ZK was introduced in 2011 it was called a cherry cyser. B. Nektar took a gold medal with it at the Mazer Cup (that's a very big deal). There's an old thread here that says the cyser had 3 fermentables - cider, honey and cherries.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...ktar-zombie-killer-clone-cherry-cyser.317255/

It seems they cold crashed and filtered at the desired FG then force carbonated it. Unfortunately, this version is no longer available - they changed the recipe. The current version is a 5.5% cider with honey and cherry added. That'd be easier to replicate I think.

But in either case we'll need to figure out what the mix of ingredients should be to come close. I remember reading through this thread back when it was current, and I don't think anybody really succeeded.

Edit: When I click PLANO in your profile, Google Maps shows me Plano Texas. Maybe you should add ILL.
 
Maybe they are making a mead and separately fermenting a cider, then stabilizing, blending and then adding the cherry juice then force carb?
 
Maylar said:
Now it's just a cider.
Click to expand...
Yeah, your'e right its at 5.5%, I remember it used to be higher ABV, haven't had any in a while. So which clone to shoot for? The older or newer version? Since the cherry flavor covers most of the apple flavor, they're probably using a simple blend of local apples.
No need to wait for the fall, if you have temperature control, you could run a test batch with Simply Apple from the grocery store, let it ferment and age and then run some trials with the cherry juice.
I'm still thinking they might be blending some mead (small amount) into this to boost the ABV before adding the cherry juice? The cherry juice , added after stabilizing, will water down the cider and lower the alcohol, so something has to bring it back up.
Another possibility is that they are adding some cherry juice before fermentation and some after, to get a more complex flavor.
I'm also wondering if they're adding whole fruit at some point?
 
madscientist451 said:
Yeah, your'e right its at 5.5%, I remember it used to be higher ABV, haven't had any in a while. So which clone to shoot for? The older or newer version? Since the cherry flavor covers most of the apple flavor, they're probably using a simple blend of local apples.
No need to wait for the fall, if you have temperature control, you could run a test batch with Simply Apple from the grocery store, let it ferment and age and then run some trials with the cherry juice.
I'm still thinking they might be blending some mead (small amount) into this to boost the ABV before adding the cherry juice? The cherry juice , added after stabilizing, will water down the cider and lower the alcohol, so something has to bring it back up.
Another possibility is that they are adding some cherry juice before fermentation and some after, to get a more complex flavor.
I'm also wondering if they're adding whole fruit at some point?
Click to expand...

I dunno.. I have to try one first. It takes about 24 oz of backsweetening per gallon to drop a typical 6.5% (1.050) cider to 5.5%, so that's quite a bit of post fermentation adjustment possible. Need to get some and measure their SG.

I don't have temp control yet, so it's fall when I ferment stuff.
 
Ok so I am super delayed in getting around to doing this recipe but I have started it. Two days ago I purchased 5 gallons of Indian summer brand apple cider and an original gravity reading of that was 1.040. I added 2 pounds of Starthistle honey to up it to 1.053. I added two packs of Nottingham dry yeast packets and it was slow to start but it is finally going with a little extra oxygenation from an oxygenation kit I got in the mail yesterday. Also, I did not add any yeast nutrient or Yeast energizer. Upon sticking my nose in my fermentation chamber that is set to about 67 or 68° I am getting a heavy sulfur smell. Is this normal for Nottingham? I have never used it before.

After fermentation is complete my plan is to back sweeten with more Starthistle honey and tart cherry juice along with some more apple cider to warm up to dissolve the honey in
 
Yes, I've had the sulfur problem using Nottingham with cider. I usually don't use yeast nutrient in cider but with Nottingham perhaps it will help.
 
Thanks mad....should I be worried though? Is that gone leave any residual side effects in the final product?
 
copper2hopper said:
Ok so I am super delayed in getting around to doing this recipe but I have started it. Two days ago I purchased 5 gallons of Indian summer brand apple cider and an original gravity reading of that was 1.040. I added 2 pounds of Starthistle honey to up it to 1.053. I added two packs of Nottingham dry yeast packets and it was slow to start but it is finally going with a little extra oxygenation from an oxygenation kit I got in the mail yesterday. Also, I did not add any yeast nutrient or Yeast energizer. Upon sticking my nose in my fermentation chamber that is set to about 67 or 68° I am getting a heavy sulfur smell. Is this normal for Nottingham? I have never used it before.

After fermentation is complete my plan is to back sweeten with more Starthistle honey and tart cherry juice along with some more apple cider to warm up to dissolve the honey in
Click to expand...

So your plan is to start with about 7% ABV and backsweeten / dilute down to about 5.5%? Do have any idea what the sweetness level is for the commercial ZK?

I've yet to try Zombie Killer, it's not available here in CT. And the closest spirits shop that has it is an hr and a half drive up a very boring interstate highway.
 
Maylar said:
So your plan is to start with about 7% ABV and backsweeten / dilute down to about 5.5%? Do have any idea what the sweetness level is for the commercial ZK?

I've yet to try Zombie Killer, it's not available here in CT. And the closest spirits shop that has it is an hr and a half drive up a very boring interstate highway.
Click to expand...

That’s the hope if it ferments out that far from 1.053 to 1.001. Even still that’ll only get me to an 6.83%. From there (and I’m glad you brought this up since I’m new to meads and hard ciders as this is my very first one) I didn’t realize adding back sweetening ingredients diluted out the abv. If that’s what happens then yeah I’m hoping to hit around a 5% abv beverage then. I’ll try to back sweeten to a 1.030 according to an earlier post on this thread that’s what ZK does. Yeah we have the real deal pretty readily available where I’m at in Illinois so it’s a pretty sweet yet tart beverage.
 
copper2hopper said:
That’s the hope if it ferments out that far from 1.053 to 1.001. Even still that’ll only get me to an 6.83%. From there (and I’m glad you brought this up since I’m new to meads and hard ciders as this is my very first one) I didn’t realize adding back sweetening ingredients diluted out the abv. If that’s what happens then yeah I’m hoping to hit around a 5% abv beverage then. I’ll try to back sweeten to a 1.030 according to an earlier post on this thread that’s what ZK does. Yeah we have the real deal pretty readily available where I’m at in Illinois so it’s a pretty sweet yet tart beverage.
Click to expand...

Look at my post #149 above, I mentioned that it takes quite a bit of dilution to drop ABV that much. So you should be OK to back sweeten. Keep us posted on your results. I have a jug of star thistle honey that is hopefully intended for this purpose, but I really need to sample ZK first.

One of the things I've noticed is that their product has changed from when it was first introduced. Originally it was a 7% cyser sweetened with cherries. That's what they won a gold medal with. Now it's a 5.5% cider sweetened with cherries and honey. Wish I could have had some of the original one.
 
Thanks Mylar. Good stuff to know. Looks like I’ll be alright then and be able to get a good 5-5.5% out of her then. A little good news update to this batch....the strong sulfury smell has dissipated quite dramatically already. I had to change out my lid cuz the rubber grommet on the first one broke off into the damn batch so when I popped the lid it smelled really good like a hard cider should. I’m really excited for this. I also went out today and got my other Indian summer cider and Indian summer montmorency tart cherry juice to have ready for the back sweetening portion in a couple weeks or so. Good thing with Indian summer brand is that it’s readily available to me here in Illinois and they are in Traverse Michigan where B Nektar gets their ingredients from for this anyways I believe. So this should be a good one I hope. Here’s my ingredients (with 2 packs of Notty not shown) for reference and even still should all be available on amazon for those of you too far away to get Indian summer brand at their stores. Also, keep in mind I did not add any yeast nutrient or energizer our anything else into 5 gallon primary other than the heated up/dissolved 2lb of that honey you see here to bump the OG from 1.040 (Apple cider all by itself) to 1.053. Then just a little boost of oxygen from my oxygenation kit.

Do you guys recommend 5 campden tablets when time comes for transfer/back sweetening? Or just cold crash and keep cold for kegging since I keg. I’d imagine the colder temps will be difficult to get the honey dissolved unless I plan on heating it up again in the cherry juice and/or some more cider which was my plan. Any advice step by step would be great. Thanks.
IMG_0350.JPG
IMG_0350.JPG
 
You'll want to stabilize with campden and k-sorbate before back sweetening, even if kegging. I usually do a half tablet per gallon at that stage. The challenge will be to get the ratio of honey and cherry right. When I sweeten with honey I warm it up first and mix with room temp cider, it mixes better and doesn't need a ton of stirring. I'd probably take a quart of cider and do controlled tasting / mixing a glass at a time until I get the flavor and sweetness and scale up from there.
 
So today’s been two weeks. Haven’t taken gravity reading or anything but should I secondary today? Does it typically take only two weeks for primary? Or 3?
 

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