A case against kegging - Bottling is better

[Grinder12000]

springer - no no - not directed at you - the only thing I have against you are those grandma underpants but we have gone there before LOL

McKBrew - yea - I AM cocky, I admit it - I've been asked to start a brew pub and turned it down, had the funding but I know my limits and I don't want to make brewing a job - PLUS - I'm not AG so it would be silly to open a brewpub of ANY size. There are other reason for being cocky but that would just add to my cocky bragging ways so . . . . I do agree with your comments to my comments for the most part.

I think conditioning most beer for 3-4 months might be overkill.

+1 - I have over conditioned brews a number of times. It all depends on the brew.

 

[spiny_norman]

Concur. Yuri Has a big thread on this. Additionally many microbreweries are putting good, high OG beers on the market in less time than some of us give our pale ales.

I hate to change topic, but what's the general consensus on how much time to condition a double IPA at around 8% (for example)?

 

[springer]

springer - no no - not directed at you - the only thing I have against you are those grandma underpants but we have gone there before LOL

crying out loud man for the last time there shorts not underwear.... She is commando..

 

[rwinzing]

It seems to me you are making an argument for the sides you "happen" to do.

AG brewers are not as good as mini mash brewers then you state you mini mash.....
You also talk down to kegging and claim bottling is better (of course YOU bottle)

Seems to me yo are trying to talk up the process YOU choose to follow

What I don't understand why it is all or nothing......

I keg many of my brews but will bottle some as well. I also brew AG but do many partial mash as well. I develop my own reciepes AND use kits.

The one thing I have noticed about brewers is we love to draw line in the sands and defend our choice. But like politics it's our choice and there is no right or wrong. I love having a great brew on tap and is my perfered method. But it is great having bottles around as well.

 

[springer]

I hate to change topic, but what's the general consensus on how much time to condition a double IPA at around 8% (for example)?

in a bottle or keg.... And I ask in the future that you use IIPA ......
















J/k there was heated discussion on Double or II when addressing a a strong IPA

 

[ntempleton]

IF YOU ARE READING THIS FOR THE FIRST TIME - IT'S AN EDITORIAL - NOT A "FACT" piece. I have already been whipped and beaten!

All kegging is not inferior and it is not what I an inferring. Force carbing FOR HOME BREWERS - I personally feel is inferior.

I assume (oops, now I'm doing it too!) all of you are familiar with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

CO2, proper aging, and the creation of decent homebrew:

All scientific data that I've read suggest the myth of "small" and "large" bubbles or that natual verses forced carbonation are just that, myth. Bubble size is a simple function of the viscosity of the liquid that has been carbonated. Carbonation saturation also, is a simply function of the liquid that is being carbonated. How a liquid is carbonated has no specific barring on the liquid. The additional aging provided by natural carbonation does allow for slight changes, but as many homebrewers do not filter their beer, many of these changes are going to happen as a function of the yeast still in suspension. The packaging, and method of carbonation have very little, if any affect over these changes.

I think that that observations that Grinder12000 speaks far more to improper fermentation and temperature control technique. If the Brewer is pitching proper amounts of yeast, is controlling fermentation temperatures, and packaging correctly, I think many of the differences noted are no longer apparent.

Speaking to yeast. Improper pitching amounts will cause the yeast to do things other than fermentation. Many of these things produce flavors undesirable in the finished beer. Sometimes, these flavors are desirable; many ale's should have esters, many Belgian styles completely abuse the yeast, but these are exceptions.

Temperature management is also very important. 2 or 3 degrees off in either direction is enough to cause a significantly different flavor profiles. Swings in temperature are even worse. As many homebrewers ferment in ambient temperature, the lack of temperature control will also cause many of the problems that Grinder12000 noticed. If warm aging, and natural carbonation produced significantly better beer, we wouldn't see Breweries all over the world making substantial investments in cold temperature control equipment.

Rather than focus on details concerning batch size, or packaging, focus on the details of how you brew your beer, and how to produce better beer. Unfortunately, these are harder details to focus on.

 

[WIP]

I read a bit of this, and I stopped. It is all too negative. I hate negativity, he is trying to play devils advocate. I too enjoy playing that game, so here are my thoughts.

If you force carb, all you are doing is adding carbonation. If you prime, some of the inactive yeasties wake up and re suspend (I think). These little guys help to "clean up" since they are awake. Am I wrong? I would like to cask condition, I need to look into this.

 

[Denny]

So here is my thought. Kegging, where you force carbonate, while fast and easy takes away that fantastic flavor that you get bottling. Bottling is basically like a cask ale, naturally carbonated. Bottling, which some say is a pain in the butt just makes a better tasting beer.

If there's a difference, it's becasue you're doing something wrong with one or the other.

 

[Denny]

If you force carb, all you are doing is adding carbonation. If you prime, some of the inactive yeasties wake up and re suspend (I think). These little guys help to "clean up" since they are awake. Am I wrong? I would like to cask condition, I need to look into this.

There is so little fermentation that takes place when you proime that I have never found that to be true. I once did an experiment using different primings (corn sugar, cane sugar, brown sugar, honey and a couple others I don't recall) and force carbing. After letting all the beers sit for 2 months, no one could tell a difference between them and no one preferred one over another.

 

[IrregularPulse]

My beer honestly got better at kegging. It got rid of a common off flavor all my beers had while bottling that I have also tasted in every bottle of homebrew I've received from members on here for swaps. All these were bottle conditioned.
I still stand by my claim that bottling sugar causes a "homebrew" taste and have yet to taste a bottle conditioned homebrew without that flavor.

 

[Grinder12000]

Denny - that is the key right there. And I hate to say MANY so how about SOME people will force carb and drink 2 days later because the people I know don't have 10 kegs laying around. They have maybe 2 or 3 and can not wait more then a week to start drinking their carbed up green beer which to me is that "homebrew flavor" people talk about.

I have 5 styles aging just because I can not drink as fast as I can brew so aging is a natural process.

bottling sugar causes a "homebrew" taste

OK - I'll say it - that is 100% wrong and a myth that won't die. But . . . . if you believe that it ain't going away and I respect your thinking that . . but will kindly disagree. Just like I taste very few good AG batches you have not tasted many good bottle conditioned homebrews.

On a side note - swaps - I keep getting exploding bottles on swaps - no more for me! While exploding bottles are fun I would not want to be around one when it happens. WOW!!!

 

[WIP]

My beer honestly got better at kegging. It got rid of a common off flavor all my beers had while bottling that I have also tasted in every bottle of homebrew I've received from members on here for swaps. All these were bottle conditioned.
I still stand by my claim that bottling sugar causes a "homebrew" taste and have yet to taste a bottle conditioned homebrew without that flavor.

I must love the "homebrew flavor" as I prefer my bottle conditioned beers over store bought beers.

I am wondering if you get the same flavor from store bought bottle conditioned beer? Fat tire, bridgeport, etc.

 

[IrregularPulse]

I'd love to try some. Not saying it's not possible, just not what I've seen experienced. I'd love to taste some that someone says doesn't have the flavor to see if I can taste it. Maybe at Dark Lord days I can meet up with some fellow HBT'ers and test this out.

 

[WIP]

I'd love to try some. Not saying it's not possible, just not what I've seen experienced. I'd love to taste some that someone says doesn't have the flavor to see if I can taste it. Maybe at Dark Lord days I can meet up with some fellow HBT'ers and test this out.

I am new to homebrewing, but I would love to do a swap with you. I will PM you.

 

[McKBrew]

I am new to homebrewing, but I would love to do a swap with you. I will PM you.

And we'll have to sway some brews too, once I get some back in production.

 

[WIP]

Definately. Hell, we could meet up sometime.

 

[McKBrew]

Back to the OP. It's one thing to start a thread on something like this, totally different to keep trying to carry the debate on in your posts on other threads.

How many threads are you going to post this in today? You should just put it in your signature, it'd be less work.

 

[samc]

I prefer kegged beer hands down over bottle conditioned. When done with my kegged batch if I have a few bottles left over I generally find that I don't enjoy them as much as the kegged brew. Could just be my bottling technique but I don't find any merit in OP's post and would suggest he taste some beer from someone who kegs and bottles from the same batch before pronouncing the end of kegging as we know it.

 

[remilard]

I do not think competitions are a fair judge of beer but that is a different thread

Of course you don't. It seems that all of your opinions about everything support the notion that your beer is just super.

Wouldn't want to let any pesky blind judging foul that up.

 

[Grinder12000]

McKBrew - what are you talking about ???? I think I mentioned it ONCE BEFORE this thread started - are you stalking me?

remilard - I have enough blind testing so know what is good and what is bad.

So - since the bullies have taken over this thread with the purpose to somehow put me in my place.

Have fun.

BTW - remilard - why not pay for the privileged for bashing me by becoming a Premium Supporter instead of taking the free ride.

Sorry. I'm outta here.

 

[Edcculus]

BTW - remilard - why not pay for the privileged for bashing me by becoming a Premium Supporter instead of taking the free ride.

Sorry. I'm outta here.

dude, thats low....

You actually mention this in 2 other threads. You just throw it in casually like everyone already knows "you loose a lot of flavor when you keg".

Most of my friends say I can compete with a commercial brewery and I mini mash AND bottle my beer. Kegging is nice but you lose a lot of flavor kegging. There is just noway you can get that fantastic taste of cask ale from a keg.

+1 what babalu87 says!

It's all about taste. I don't keg because bottled beer tastes MUCH better then kegged beer. Aged stout tastes much better then fresh stout.

Aside from the whole thing about some keggers rushing beer, what do kegging vs bottling and aging beer have to do with eachother?


Don't make it out like you are the victim here. You came in and made some wide sweeping claims that werent true. Revising the OP was the right thing to do, since you state them as fact, not questions to debate.

I actually remembered something that the brewer at Thomas Creek in Greenville SC used to tell me. He claimed he could taste the difference in bottle conditioned beer vs force carbed. He said bottle conditioning left a harsh taste to the beer, especially when you use corn sugar. I call complete BS, but never really called him out on it. Explain that.

 

[McKBrew]

McKBrew - what are you talking about ???? I think I mentioned it ONCE BEFORE this thread started - are you stalking me?

No reason to, for some reason I have inadvertantly stumbled on at least two other threads where you mention this. Believe me, I wish I could avoid it.

remilard - I have enough blind testing so know what is good and what is bad.

So - since the bullies have taken over this thread with the purpose to somehow put me in my place.

Have fun.

BTW - remilard - why not pay for the privileged for bashing me by becoming a Premium Supporter instead of taking the free ride.

Sorry. I'm outta here.

................

 

[Grinder12000]

yea - I'm sinking into the darkness with the rest - almost losing my sense of humor.

 

[buzzkill]

just go get a keg, keg your beer,then see if its the kegging..

 

[DKershner]

I actually remembered something that the brewer at Thomas Creek in Greenville SC used to tell me. He claimed he could taste the difference in bottle conditioned beer vs force carbed. He said bottle conditioning left a harsh taste to the beer, especially when you use corn sugar. I call complete BS, but never really called him out on it. Explain that.

I often think this when I cook, brew beer, even eat desserts: "I wish I could borrow your taste buds to figure out what the **** you are talking about."

But hey, everyone is different.

To the topic, I actually find that it seems bottle conditioning tastes the same, but is just less accurate. Matt and I split a 10gal batch of Dunkelweizen, he bottle carbed, i forced, both were very good, his was slightly less carbed than mine. At the end of the keg, I burped mine, let it sit, then tasted it side by side. Literally no difference, I actually forgot which was which mid-tasting.

For the record, mine seemed originally about 2.7 volumes (based off of a bottle of Paulaner and Franziskaner). His seemed around 2.4. We are at 4000ft, so force carbing is a learning process, the Dunkel was carbed at 20psi. :cross:

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

So, the OP has never kegged...

Yet, he feels he can pass judgement on ALL brewers who keg?

Frankly, I feel brewers who bottle have too much time on their hands, can't handle the subtle complexity of kegging and suffer from keg-envy.

And, I actually have bottled...

 

[jacksonbrown]

I can only speak for myself and my methods, which is kegging under forced carbonation. It's possible that what you're noticing is simply haste on the part of many brewers. I do 10 gal batches but will often bottle 6-12 brews for handing out to friends, aging, whatever, before kegging. So they're naturally carbonated. And I can say with a lot of certainty that there is very little difference between the two. In fact I've had brews that were lacking in bottle but great off the tap (notably a rye ipa that really lost something in the bottle).
My method includes a primary for 2 weeks, then a secondary for however long I feel neccessary (2 weeks to months on end). Sometimes I'll secondary in the keg without adding CO2 (other than to purge to oxygen). But when I do carb I'll sit it for about two weeks. I don't keg my beer so I can drink it right away, which might be the flaw you've come across. I do, however, keg for convenience. Man, is it easier than bottling!
So, Grinder, I think you're wrong. And above is my reason why.

 

[WIP]

BTW - remilard - why not pay for the privileged for bashing me by becoming a Premium Supporter instead of taking the free ride.

Wow, I was on your side (devils advocate) until you said that. Some chose to support the forum financially, some try to give advise, some do both, some have other ways. If only the people that supported financially could post, this forum would go down the tubes. There probably wouldn't be as many supporting members as there are now, because they wouldn't have joined in the first place. Anyhoo, you are now considered a pompus jerk in my book.

 

[DKershner]

Wow, I was on your side (devils advocate) until you said that. Some chose to support the forum financially, some try to give advise, some do both, some have other ways. If only the people that supported financially could post, this forum would go down the tubes. There probably wouldn't be as many supporting members as there are now, because they wouldn't have joined in the first place. Anyhoo, you are now considered a pompus jerk in my book.

I actually didn't become a premium supporter because I thought the site could make more than $25/yr off me in ads because I was a frequent visitor...didn't realize I could do both.

In any case, calling out someone for not spending money on a luxury good is pretty out of bounds. +1

 

[flyerwire]

i still rush beers to tap when i have piss poor planning and run out and after an extra few weeks it definitely does make a difference... any taste you are commenting on between bottling and kegging is probably attributed to the ease of serving green beer, as many have said in this thread...

and to another poster who mentioned brewing with friends... i have, and most have resulted in a mistake here or there... if i brew with a friend who also brews it cuts quite a bit of time out of the process and is more enjoyable.

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

Bottle conditioned beer does taste different than kegged beer, for obvious reasons. You add bottling sugar, you add a warm conditioning period, and introduce a small amount of yeast byproduct including alcohol. How could you solve this difference? Well, if you go to Sierra Nevada, they have two Pale Ales on tap. WTF? One is the recipe that goes in bottles, one is for kegs. They mod the recipe a bit so that the kegged recipe tastes like the bottled recipe to achieve a consistent flavor whether you get a 12-pack or a keg. Now if you stand them up side by side and do a blind taste, it's almost impossible to tell them apart. With practice you can identify the difference, but it's so small as to be insignificant IMHO.

For my experience, when I keg a beer I will start tasting it after 2 days @ 30psi. It tastes thin, and lacks complexity and cohesiveness. The flavors are competing rather than blending. It's basically a green beer. After 2 days, I drop the pressure to 12psi for serving. After one week I taste again. It's a bit better, but still usually is a bit on the green side. Depending on the beer, 3-4 weeks is when the beers are properly carbonated and blended. Flavors emerge that were hidden before, harsh carbonic bite and astringent hop bites have mellowed, etc.

For any method of packaging your beer, you must let it age properly. This varies from recipe to recipe, and even from batch to batch. The only way to tell is to wait 2-4 weeks, and taste one every few days. My wheat beers only need 1-1.5 weeks, but they are light on hops and malt. Pale Ales and IPA's take about 3 weeks to really balance out due to high amounts of bittering hops. My stout doesn't really get fantastic for 2 months due to the whole heap of roasted malts that I use. Bottling, casking, kegging are just different methods to acheive the same result. There is no right or wrong way, and all of them have their pros and cons. Don't be a close-minded fool and think your way is best...especially if you've never tried the other way.

 

[Grinder12000]

dkershner - just venting from being cornered - nothing personal. Hey - I let my support slip for a few months

 

[DKershner]

dkershner - just venting from being cornered - nothing personal. Hey - I let my support slip for a few months

There is no reason to feel cornered, just realize that you are walking into a world full of very-informed beer keggers and bottlers when you express opinions. If you combat them, they will argue back.

Everyone has disagreements and misunderstandings on this forum (or at least I do). I would hope that these would only strengthen people's view of me as it has strengthened my view of them and their opinion.

It is really OK to be wrong, although in this case we haven't (and won't) really prove anything other than the difference is VERY insignificant and imperceptible (to most) between natural and force carbonation.

 

[WIP]

I also think it depends on the beer.

 

[wetherel]

I prefer bottling to kegging for low cost variety and portability to bottle sharings/swapping. For every flavor of beer I want to have available, I have to spend $25 for a keg, or $0 for recycled bottles. I also brew 2-3 gallon batches for variety. I get bored drinking the same 5 gallons beer out of a keg for 1-2 months, especially if the beer is not great. Maybe I just need more friends.

 

[Picobrew]

From my experience, it doesn't really matter how you package the beer, as long as you add at least one oat to each package.

That being said, I keg and bottle condition, and I also bottle from the keg. Sometimes I choose kegging over bottling because I want a long cold conditioning and it clears the beer up beautifully before I bottle it. Other than that, it comes down to whether I want it on tap or I want to be able spread bottle love around. there are too many variables at play for me to be able to objectively compare the "quality" of kegged and bottle conditioned beers.

Back to some of your original points, I think it is a lot easier to screw up AG, so that might account for some of your experience with "low quality" AG. I don't think it has anything to do with AG itself.

 

[DKershner]

Well, if you go to Sierra Nevada, they have two Pale Ales on tap. WTF?

I was thinking about this...

We know corn sugar dries out a beer. Do you think they just up their mash temp by one degree or add some carapils to even this effect out?

But then again, SNPA isn't bottle carbed...is it? So that would literally be a taste difference just from packaging in 12oz bottles.

 

[flyerwire]

I prefer bottling to kegging for low cost variety and portability to bottle sharings/swapping. For every flavor of beer I want to have available, I have to spend $25 for a keg, or $0 for recycled bottles. I also brew 2-3 gallon batches for variety. I get bored drinking the same 5 gallons beer out of a keg for 1-2 months, especially if the beer is not great. Maybe I just need more friends.

i bottle a handful of beers out of each keg if i think its any good and i'd want to share or enter into comp's. You need more people to help you drink beer!!

 

[Picobrew]

I was thinking about this...

We know corn sugar dries out a beer. Do you think they just up their mash temp by one degree or add some carapils to even this effect out?

But then again, SNPA isn't bottle carbed...is it? So that would literally be a taste difference just from packaging in 12oz bottles.

SNV has two recipes, they aren't just subtle differences. The SNV Draft that is at the brewery is maltier, more like Mirror Pond.

 

[motobrewer]

SNPA is bottle conditioned.

I'm just glad all my favorite micro's use DME to brew. Otherwise I'd be drinking some really crappy beer. no wonder i'm paying $10.99 / sixer.....