A case against kegging - Bottling is better

[permo]

Frankly, I say put up or STFU. I have 4 all grain, keg carbonated beers going to War of the Worts. Grinder may send any number of 12oz yeast cultures to said competition and we can settle it right there. Of course, certified BJCP judges can't possibly know what they are doing right.

I think a better comparison would be to brew up a ten gallon batch. Keg and force carb five gallons, bottle and prime the other five. Taste and compare.

No need to go on the defensive, generally speaking those folks who don't have the ability to keg wish they did.....so it is kind of a nice thought to think that bottling may actually give a better end result for some folks.


Who cares, you can keg or bottle...depending on what you like. I know for a fact that the beers I am submitting for competition are not force carbed but bottle conditoned and carbed. ..I'm not sayin..but I am just sayin.

 

[WIP]

I think a better comparison would be to brew up a ten gallon batch. Keg and force carb five gallons, bottle and prime the other five. Taste and compare.

No need to go on the defensive, generally speaking those folks who don't have the ability to keg wish they did.....so it is kind of a nice thought to think that bottling may actually give a better end result for some folks.


Who cares, you can keg or bottle...depending on what you like. I know for a fact that the beers I am submitting for competition are not force carbed but bottle conditoned and carbed. ..I'm not sayin..but I am just sayin.

I can't wait for the day that I can get kegging equipment and just get it done. I have 12 gallons sitting in my closet, waiting to be bottled... (should have on the 4th)

 

[Edcculus]

Of course, certified BJCP judges can't possibly know what they are doing right.

Correct! Come to think of it, this topic has never come up in any of my BJCP study classes. We have been meeting every week since the first Wednesday of December. We are following the exact course set out in the study guide. That includes tasting around 10 beers for the chosen style grouping that week. Not once has anyone, even the person leading the class said anything about force carbed beer being worse, or bottle conditioned exhibiting more flavor. There are also 3 pro brewers in the class. If there was such a big difference, don't you think we would have talked about it by now? If there were such a difference, why would any force carbed beer bottled from a keg ever win or place in a competition? FWIW, my force carbed witbier place higher than my RIS in the HBT competition.

 

[permo]

Correct! Come to think of it, this topic has never come up in any of my BJCP study classes. We have been meeting every week since the first Wednesday of December. We are following the exact course set out in the study guide. That includes tasting around 10 beers for the chosen style grouping that week. Not once has anyone, even the person leading the class said anything about force carbed beer being worse, or bottle conditioned exhibiting more flavor. There are also 3 pro brewers in the class. If there was such a big difference, don't you think we would have talked about it by now? If there were such a difference, why would any force carbed beer bottled from a keg ever win or place in a competition? FWIW, my force carbed witbier place higher than my RIS in the HBT competition.

Certainly force carbed beers are delicious, I personally am not saying that they are not. I can name numerous examples of forced carbed commercially availble beers that are fantastic.

I think what the OP was trying to express is that it is possible that there could be a difference between force carbed and bottle conditioned brews. That is all. I would tend to agree with that sentiment.

However, I think many of those differences could certainly be alleviated if the kegged beer was given time to age on primary or in secondary. Then I think the difference for most beers would be minimal. However, if you take the same beer after two weeks on primary and force carb one and drink it 4 days later and bottle one and drink it 3 weeks later...I would tend to think the bottled version could be better. Maybe I am wrong, and more research is needed for sure.

 

[user 22118]

I think a better comparison would be to brew up a ten gallon batch. Keg and force carb five gallons, bottle and prime the other five. Taste and compare.

No need to go on the defensive, generally speaking those folks who don't have the ability to keg wish they did.....so it is kind of a nice thought to think that bottling may actually give a better end result for some folks.


Who cares, you can keg or bottle...depending on what you like. I know for a fact that the beers I am submitting for competition are not force carbed but bottle conditoned and carbed. ..I'm not sayin..but I am just sayin.

Been done countless times. The fact that Grinder doesn't a) keg and b) want to give in makes everything pointless. I have force carb kegged and bottle conditioned my beer for a year. The two are basically the same. The main difference is that I age the keg less because I can, and the bottle typically acheives higher carbonation. When I get them equal, they are the exact same. This rarely happens for me though because I drink my five gallon keg and then keg another beer. Then I move onto the bottles. By then I have nothing to compare so it makes no difference.

When I have opened them at the same time though, there is nothing different. I did this back in November and found no difference between the keg on tap and the bottle that a friend brought over. We were stumped

And to make a point so that this post goes with the thread, since the bottled and kegged are not different, this thread is useless and the OP has no fact or basis to go from. That said, give up on it and post somewhere else.

 

[Orfy]

I'm a late to the party and it's all been said.

I keg but make cask condition ale in mine. I would never try to put any one off kegging. It make life so much easier.

The only think CAMRA would object to is using CO2 to serve because I can't drink 5g in 3 days.

KISS.

 

[Denny]

I think a better comparison would be to brew up a ten gallon batch. Keg and force carb five gallons, bottle and prime the other five. Taste and compare.

I don't know if you saw my other post, but I did something like that years back, using a variety of primings. 2 months down the road, in a blind tasting, no one could tell which was which, nor did anyone have a preference for one over another.

 

[remilard]

Don't you know yourself what diacetyl tastes like?

Threshold for diacetyl varies wildly from person to person (although it this guy was particularly sensitive, he should know that), maybe matt is very insensitive to it.

According to BJCP study materials, many people don't taste it at any level, although I have a hard time believing that as I have never met anyone to which butter flavored popcorn tastes plain.

Some styles
require diacetyl

I can't think of one as, for example, both Irish Red Ale and Czech Pilsner have classic examples with no perceptible diacetyl.

 

[remilard]

As one who also loves fine Champagne and California sparkling wine, I would agree that that bottle conditioned beer is superior to force carbed beer for the same reason that naturally carbonated,bottle conditioned sparkling wine is superior to force carbed (Charmat process) bubbly.

Autolysis?

Couldn't let that one slide.

[sarcasm]You know it doesn't exist, right?[/sarcasm]

 

[Grinder12000]

The fact that Grinder doesn't a) keg (I see no point in it) and b) want to give in makes everything pointless.

wait a minute - I HAVE given in - the reason I made my comments was that in my experience people that keg do not want to wait 1 or 2 or 3 months to age their brews. So while I have been corrected because of PROPER kegging will give you very good results it's the lack of patience that the keggers "I" know, try to sell people that bottle.

The typical conversation is "I spent an hour bottling yesterday" response "That is why I hate to bottle takes to long, I can keg in 15 minutes and be drinking in 3 days".

So it is not the kegging - it's the patience many keggers that do not have 5 or 6 or 7 taps for their kegorater. They can't wait.

The main difference is that I age the keg less because I can, and the bottle typically acheives higher carbonation.

ummm - don't blame the process for your over carbing LOL

 

[BierMuncher]

...If there were such a difference, why would any force carbed beer bottled from a keg ever win or place in a competition?...

Here...here...

 

[Bobby_M]

Ok, so the title of the thread should be revised to "A case for patience" but then again, that's been preached at HBT for years.

 

[Orfy]

Grinder..... at least you have learned.

 

[Stuntman]

Bobby_M - I agree with you. ALL kegging is not bad if you can naturally carbonate it. HOWEVER - I would love to see real stats on how often a keg is naturally carbonated.

Everyone remembers, when in High School, getting a keg of store bought, and noticing how it is smoother than the same beer in a bottle or can. The same beer in a can/bottle was not better, just different, maybe more carbonated IMO. Heineken in a bottle is just skunky, you have to use can to keg comparisons for Heineken.

Now that my pipeline is looking good, I will natural carb everything. I am just trying to save CO2. I do have a Belgian Wit, and a New Castle forced carbed. The ones behind (same batches) are naturally carbed with as much of priming sugar that calls for bottling. I am going to do extensive tasting on these two.

Above: Is before I realized that there were 13 more pages to this thread.
Below: Remarks after I was edjumakated (read said 13 pages).

OK, Belgian Wit really can't be drank green, because tastes like tap water mostly. Thanks for the thread ( I still learning). On the other hand New Castle is exactly what you would get in the store. Like I stated previously, forced, after only three weeks in fermenters, and I'll admit I had NO clue about conditioning in the keg. So from now on I will be 1 week in primary, 2 weeks secondary, 2 weeks minimum in keg for the most part (naturally carbed, CO2 burped, room temp..this is my exclusive conditioning process LAMOS) .

LAMOS= lauging at my own self

 

[Stuntman]

BTW - remilard - why not pay for the privileged for bashing me by becoming a Premium Supporter instead of taking the free ride.

I agree Edcculus

Too low!

I have learned so much from HBT, and a LOT from guys that don't have a subscription. I use this site every day. Even this thread has showed me the error of my ways, MY GOD...I HAVE BEEN DRINKING GREEN BEER! Go figure.... Grinder helped a 6 year plus brewer out. Now I know.

Just because I had the extra bucks to put down (don't have them now) doesn't mean that I can TRY and run down someone. I appreciate the forum and the opinions from everyone, paying or not.

Like I said before, "HBT" You guys are going to make a good brewer out of me yet.

 

[wrestler63]

Although relatively new to this wonderful hobby ( 32 batches AG ) I bottle and keg. I love making 10g batches and kegging half and bottling the other. I make notes when tasting both and there is a difference. I dont make many beers under 1.080 with the exception of Dunkelweizen. I am indeed an Ale/Hops freak. That being said, my beers I keg I try to carbonate over a period of a week at 10 psi. Sometimes I do force carb quickly and the beers do taste "green" for about a week. I force carb only when the pipeline is low. Because my beers are big beers, they take alot of time to condition at ferment temp. I have not tried bottle conditioning at higher temps but I think that is in the near future.
Now the punchline. I have made beers that were better bottled and some were better kegged. Why? I am not 100% sure, but I think the hops condition out somewhat when bottle conditioned over longer periods of time. I have made big SMASH beers that were great bottled. I make a big IIPA that has a large amount of Munich that is good bottled or kegged. My brown ale I definetly prefer kegged. If you brew it, you like it, and your happy, you have reached your goals.
Cheers All