2 x 2 16 gauge - OK for 15+ gallons?

[Gadjobrinus]

You can also silver braze stainless. Decent fillet joints should be plenty strong.

OK, as usual, going gonzo to pick up what I can. So been watching Welding tips - 5 part series on Mig alone. Thanks, Sandy, that guy's awesome and this is really fascinating.

I also watched Weld Fever's Mig welding square tubing, and learned a lot, in just one video.

So, in other words, don't laugh at the questions, guys. Ong, Fever makes the point that each joint surface has its own character, e.g., flared bevel where the rolled side meets the straight cut? And I think he seemed to be saying that along these edges, you need to slow it down and fill in more, because of the less-than-perfect match of the surfaces; right? Then the fillet and butt welds. Take this as a total noob trying to keep it straight, not questioning expertise. The reason I'm asking is just to double check if something like silver brazing is strong enough, given this? Or am I overthinking this?

Now - let me tie your suggestion, Ong, into a second thing. I fear I'll truly screw this all up. Even though it's mig, just because it's stainless, and I've never dealt with shielding gases before. If brazing can do it, man, I'd feel better about that.

The final thing - first time I built the rig, that 1 x 1 mild, I had a brewing supplier who was happy to rent to me at a substantial break, in trade for beer. This time, I've got zip in the way of equipment and am not sure I can rent all the incidentals. I know myself and know I could easily go nuts on yet another new thing, but SWMBO I think, would finally tilt. And if what I just read was right - with examples of Praxair charging couple hundred for the cylinder, and 350-400 for the gas (cheapest example, Airgas for a total of $240, cylinder inclusive), well...I wonder if I'm being ridiculous in basically starting to acquire a welding setup, when I'm lousy at it, and can easily outspend doing this compared to just finding a more responsive professional.

If I knew I could rent everything, practice enough to not make it look like modern art, and do it, all in, at a cost that didn't swamp my just paying a pro, then the bug in me is definitely lit. Seriously, always wanted to learn to weld and I know MIG is the easiest of all of them as a way in (right?). But so far, it's not looking good. Am I making any sense?

 

[wilserbrewer]

Go electric brewing and build a nice wood stand for many reasons.

JMO

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks, but at least this particular attempt at a ship has sailed, Wilser.....

 

[wilserbrewer]

Ok, sorry for the poorly timed suggestion, good luck with the project.

Bolts and screws in lieu of welding?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Ok, sorry for the poorly timed suggestion, good luck with the project.

Bolts and screws in lieu of welding?

Oh, no worries at all, Wilser. I didn't want to come off that way, that I was ungrateful for the suggestion. And if I come to another one for some reason, electric is definitely something I'm reading up on. Just have lots in place already for fire.

Funny you say that, on nuts and bolts, as I was just thinking of that this morning. But I think I was being goofy in how I was thinking about it, because I was thinking of taking square tubing, drilling and bolting it - which I think pretty much kills its strength, yes? I've seen people put a lot of weight on....I don't know what it's called. Metal struts dedicated to bolts?

I'm still keyed about learning to do this myself, per Sandy's supportive suggestion, just need to see how I might rent, and not own, all the equipment (don't know if that's possible with gas and helmet, for example). And read up last night on Ong's suggestion re: silver brazing. Would never have thought something like that could be that strong. Kind of mind-blowing, actually. The only reservation the book gives is that it's a definite no-no on butt welds. But for a bunch of fillets...giving me some pause and consideration.

Thanks all of you. I appreciate your time and options. We'll get there.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Just queried our local Airgas on whether they could rent everything needed. We'll see.

 

[Toejam792]

Sounds like you got a plan in place but electric with a would table would be a lot cheaper if you diy. Sounds like your going to have over a grand in your stand when that's more than i have in 3 25 gal pots and my control panel. Also brewing a batch costs half as much when heating with electricity.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Toejam, see above - I'm in, at this point, with flame. But thank you.

OK guys, well, somewhat heartened. It appears I might be able to not only rent the machine, but a larger gas cylinder as well. So, just a check on what might be reasonable as starting parameters for this metal. Again, 2 x 2, 16 gauge square tubing.

Short-Circuit Arc
Wire: .030 308LSi
Gas: Tri-mix of 90% He, 7.5% Ar, 2.5% CO2 (ideally); alternatively, 97% Ar, 2% CO2, 1% H2.
Flow: 40 CFH (If using a flowmeter for something other than He, conversion factor. E.g., for an Ar meter, set it to 12.6).
Voltage: 20
Amps: 125
Speed: 250 IPM
Stickout: Just under 1/2" or so

I "get" these parameters, but they're just drawn from my reading in some books, calculators online, etc. I know every machine is different, so nothing is going to mean much until I start trying it all out, just want to see if I'm wildly off. Thanks for you help.

BTW: If I do end up buying, I've only ever used Lincolns. Lincoln Pro 140C? Others in 110V?

Edit: Don't know if any have seen the build, but just an estimate on how much wire to buy. Would 2# do, roughly, for a project like this? Or I'm crazy, and 10# spool required? Thanks.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

2# should be plenty. I'm a miller guy and always have been so I can't advise on lincoln. I have been looking at the HTP tig boxes lately for a cheaper version of a miller dynasty. I buy accessories and consumables from HTP and I have had a wonderful experience time and time again.

Also, don't waste money on heavy mig gloves. Just get some leather gloves from your local hardware store. I prefer buckskin for dexterity but anything works. Just don't touch the hot $hit. Long sleeve cotton shirt will work fine. And if you weld overhead wear ear plugs!!! Nothing worse than a hot ball of metal rolling around in your ear.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

OK thanks, Sandy. Those parameters above, I just drew from general reading and, I think, a Miller calc from their site. Just beginning to read on makes now, including HTP, so thanks for the mention. I'll pay a visit to my local and tell them what I'm up to, see what we come up with.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Let me know when you get your machine and we can talk weld settings and setup.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks Sandy.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Guys, many would tell me just to get a life, but while I acquire everything but the frame, I do obsess over this. Reading the latest BYO and reading over their article on ready-to-brew, large scale systems, I'm reminded: Ruby Street is what appears to be all red-painted, mild steel frame, with a raised black grillwork of burners.

I have time. Many here decry using painted mild for the mess and upkeep it requires. Any comments on how this might apply to the Ruby Systems, as just one example? I'm not being flippant, I mean it sincerely - how are they or others using mild and paint dealing with the issues discussed herein? Asking about that red frame, and the black heating grills (not sure what either is, what materials or coatings used)? And thoughts on durability, given some of comments on what a PITA it can be?

 

[day_trippr]

"Burner grates finished in black with a 2000 degree industrial coating"

Flame temperatures of common gases and fuels:
Gas / Fuels Flame temperature
Propane in air 1980 °C 3596 °F

RS doesn't specify scale, so maybe they found an affordable 2000°C coating.
If not, I'd say that black coating will need periodic attention...

Cheers!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

"Burner grates finished in black with a 2000 degree industrial coating"

Flame temperatures of common gases and fuels:
Gas / Fuels Flame temperature
Propane in air 1980 °C 3596 °F

RS doesn't specify scale, so maybe they found an affordable 2000°C coating.
If not, I'd say that black coating will need periodic attention...

Cheers!

Missed that, thanks for the pickup, Trippr. Just made me think, that's all, seeing the red and black when all else was silver.....

Speaking of the article, another make, Synergy.

Discussions of exhaust sprang to mind, when I saw the front view. This is the side view, from their site. As far as I can tell, the vessels sit right on the frame, and there's no relief out the back with the shields. I'd be curious to hear from actual users. I completely accept now the need for exhaust, thanks to you and others. My keggle system was bad enough, I recall, but at least there was some space around the grills for venting.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Let me know when you get your machine and we can talk weld settings and setup.

Came across this on a welding site. Welder recommended gas-shielded stainless flux core, which I didn't know existed. I'm sure I'm gushing about something you knew like 20 years ago, but "Fusion Flow."

Inweld Fusion Flow Stainless Steel Flux-Cored wires are designed for single or multiple-pass welds on many grades of austenitic stainless steels. Fusion Flow is designed to produce Xray quality welds using 100% CO2 or a mixed gas such as 75-80% argon plus 20-25% CO2. Fusion Flow has excellent deposition efficiency when used in the flat position on fillet welds of medium and thick plates.

Not sure if this is appropriate for 16 gauge yet - seems the thinnest wire is .035, and just don't know anything about this - but lot more appealing to rent (or buy) a straight CO2 bottle or rent an ar-CO2 blend, than dealing with He and its costs. Depending on how it pencils out, I might still want to find a way to weld this frame.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I don't want to hijack another's thread any more than I have. See the wisdom of the rear-support dropped down, with the heat shield split and open towards the back. But I've never quite been comfortable losing that rear support - the vessel is resting on only 3 struts.

Just going through builds again and came across Lehr's pretty incredible setup. This pic shows his "shim" or "riser," I believe, so that his kegs have space to vent while keeping the diamond-style flame and vessel enclosure.

Basically, I'm asking - does that look strong enough, this L? It seems thin to me, for holding say 160 # of wort, but then I know zip about metal.

In case anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about re: the dropped rear style, pic from Brewer's Hardware included as well. Your thoughts much appreciated.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Oh, %^&%$#. I just realized Lehr's clip there isn't to support a vessel, it's a finer point of his build, little clips to hold kegs in place. Man I find his setup impressive.

Alright, well, question reiterated, I guess.

Anyone share my concerns with the rear-venting style, a lack of support in dropping that rear member?

Anyone have a problem with the "standard" frame, diamond sections, with shims of some sort to raise vessels and allow venting? How would you or do you do it, raise your vessels?

Anyone think venting is unnecessary - just put the vessels directly on the "standard" frame, and go?

 

[sandyeggoxj]

First... I totally saw your thread on Miller and didn't connect it to you. Haha.

Second. If you need any laser cut and formed fancy brackets send me a pm. We can definitely get you something strong to hold the kettle if you need.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

First... I totally saw your thread on Miller and didn't connect it to you. Haha.

Second. If you need any laser cut and formed fancy brackets send me a pm. We can definitely get you something strong to hold the kettle if you need.

First "Oh no," as Jim Carrey said, "I've been found out."

Second, I completely spaced this is what you did, Sandi, custom fabrication. This is even when we have this thread. Consider me jealous. Forgive the stupidity, but what do you mean by "brackets?" I know most have seen these lovely drawings and photo, but basically, three basic ideas I'm wrestling with (and could use some input on, guys):

Whether ss or mild (probably ss):

1. The drawing you see attached. Gussets in the corner and the vessels rest on the members. No shims or risers - vessels rest directly on the flame. Is there a concern with venting and heat licking up the side of the vessel, heating valves, sight glasses, thermometers?

2. Same design, but some means to raise the vessels off the frame 1" or so; either a raised grill, or shims resting on the support members so vessels now have venting allowed beneath them all around.

3. This notion of a split heat shield, with the opening out the back, away from all "vital" parts of the brewhouse. This is an idea, from what I can see, promulgated by Brewer's Hardware.

I see it's wisdom - you've basically exhausted all heat out the back, like a jet. My concern with the design is that you've obviously lost the support of the rear member - which is now drop 2" down to rest on vertical members - and your vessel now rests only on the front and two side members. Gives me the heebie-jeebies a bit, to trust in that as a supporting structure. What do you think?

Which of these three do you support, and why?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Guys, it's looking like I may end up having to do this thing myself. Not a bad thing, just a longer thing.

Yes, still considering the pros and cons I've heard on which steel. Though I'm about 80% ss, I'd say. I do recall the blue cast of my keggles, but also recently recalled seeing 3 Floyds direct-firing their kettle (if both memory now and my original memory, serves right).

So, whether I end up welding it or not (still going through that as well - I'd sure like to learn), I'd thought to acquire the metal and cut it to spec. Can anyone recommend what I should be looking for? Do I understand correctly, that a miter saw with a cutting blade will fry the saw?

I'd like the stand to have a lot of miter cuts - no open ends. So any help on what to use to cut 16 gauge (let's presume SS), much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[day_trippr]

I used an old Ryobi 10" chop saw like this one with a cutting wheel.

Made fast work of all the cuts, no drama involved, and it could make a thousand more.
Like every other cutting tool it can be abused and cooked, but if you let the wheel do its thing without leaning your whole weight on the saw it'll work just fine.

The horizontal tubing running at the top of my stand is 45°F mitered at the corners. Every other joint is a butt. No cookies, coupons, scabs or caps. The only open tube ends are where the caster inserts are installed.

An uncoated shot for reference...


Cheers!

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

....what is it you're afraid will happen, with only the three supporting members?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I used an old Ryobi 10" chop saw like this one with a cutting wheel.

Made fast work of all the cuts, no drama involved, and it could make a thousand more.
Like every other cutting tool it can be abused and cooked, but if you let the wheel do its thing without leaning your whole weight on the saw it'll work just fine.

The horizontal tubing running at the top of my stand is 45°F mitered at the corners. Every other joint is a butt. No cookies, coupons, scabs or caps. The only open tube ends are where the caster inserts are installed.

An uncoated shot for reference...
View attachment 420181

Cheers!

Perfect, thanks, trippr!

I don't think I've seen this one in its entirety. That rig is gleaming, and inspires me. More than half of me is saying, as crazy as this is, to do this in as many steps as needed, even if it pushes me back in time. Search and acquire the stainless, cut it, learn to TIG, TIG it, assemble the components (burners, shields, gas manifold, casters). If Socal is on the money, and trying to MIG stainless is ill-advised, then seems TIG is the only way in. Did you TIG this yourself? And it looks polished?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

....what is it you're afraid will happen, with only the three supporting members?

Just not as comfortable stirring 160 lbs of hit material when it sort of hangs over a ledge (compared to the diamond style, where it's definitely not going anywhere). I'm sure it's fine. And the dropped-horizontal member design solves a lot of problems.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Ha! I think I just came across the same auction, trippr -

RYOBI "TS-251U" 10" MITER SAW

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Did you TIG this yourself? And it looks polished?

I gas-MIG'd it myself, after grinding all the mill scale off the tubing.
Epic pita btw that most would consider senseless given that gleam ended up under the VHT coating.
I have my compulsions to blame for that

Cheers!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I gas-MIG'd it myself, after grinding all the mill scale off the tubing.
Epic pita btw that most would consider senseless given that gleam ended up under the VHT coating.
I have my compulsions to blame for that

Cheers!

Worth doing, worth doing right. Piece of art!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Well, looks like the road has been decided. The welder didn't work out and I let him know today I was going another way. I'll have to weld this myself, and that means mild. Not so bad - I just came across a neighborhood friend, a builder who does everything (he was actually managing the roofing of another neighbor), told him what I'm up to and he said he's got "4 different welding machines" in his garage, though he wasn't sure one was a MIG (he doesn't weld. He just has a ton of stuff). Then he came back as I was walking away and said, "actually, I do have a flux core." He's giving it to me to use as long as I want, so that means plenty of practice, too.

Metal is $198. I don't have a miter saw or horizontal bandsaw, so I'll probably have the metal supplier cut to spec, which I don't think will be bad. So all in, for likely under $300. Pretty good, I think.

I am asking our local tech college about enrolling as an outside/no-professional program student in welding courses (they formerly said no, but they're asking around the admin. to try to allow it), and I'd like to start with oxy as I understand it's a good prereq for TIG. So, mild on this one, and if it gets to that, ss on the next one!

 

[day_trippr]

Ask your builder friend if he has a chop saw in his collection of stuff he never uses
You've seen my frame in the raw, and everything I know about welding I learned on Youtube.
It's an amazing resource...

Cheers!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thank you trippr. You know, it's funny you say that, as I was thinking of both you, and this idea, as I was walking home today just after seeing him! But I felt too shy about saying, "Hey Tim, do you happen to have a chop saw too?, lol!!!

I pledged beer. Now I think I'll have to pledge two.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Crap. Rains, pours, etc. Snow and cold is coming very quickly and noob that I am, hadn't even taken this into account when planning to weld this frame in our garage. We rent, and it's an uninsulated garage. For two seconds I searched online to find a way to safely weld indoors (our basement), until I snapped out of it. Would prefer not to buy a large heater, for this one project. This is 14 ga. mild 2 x 2. I presume cold is a problem (I don't have a torch, or any means to heat the metal)?

Also: in a word, does flux core suck? It's what I did those many years ago, for the first frame, and yes, it was ugly. I'm certain it was my lack of experience and skill. But I understand it's also kind of an ugly process anyway, with slag to remove, splatter and smoke. I guess I'm asking, does it produce a good, strong weld on this metal thickness, even if ugly - or should I see about getting a gas-MIG setup for my friend's unit?

Or, another possibility I've been thinking about, just wait till spring, practice, and get into TIG and have the flexibility to do whatever?

Open-ended and leading questions, I know; just seeing what you experienced welders might think about any of this.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Add-in: Can this Ryobi Miter be turned into a decent mitering saw (only angle: 45) for 14 ga 2 x 2, even if it dies after the job? I'd like to limit post cut clean up and get a clean cut. I know these can drift but I plan on taking it as slow as possible, if that makes a difference. Might be asking too much, just trying to limit as much outlay as possible and avoid a dry cut, bandsaw, etc. I'm not averse to using a hacksaw; it's what I did on my first rig. Talk about slow.....you haven't seen me wield a hand tool.....lol.

 

[ancientmariner52]

I've never tried to cut steel with a wood saw, because I've always had access to heavy machine shop equipment, wet band cutoff saws and such.

We bought a cold saw, similar to your Ryobi, much heavier, slower, built for cutting steel. $1200 or so IIRC. We bought it for cutting 8" dia solid steel that was too heavy to move around much.

It worked fine until we tried to use it on square tubing. Pretty much wrecked it in a week or so.

The problem is, first the blade sees 2" steel. Then it breaks through and the teeth are hitting two thin edges, one tooth at a time, at near supersonic speed. Then back to 2" steel. Hard on the ears, fatal to the blade and bearings.

Lacking a wet bandsaw, I'd purchase a cheap import abrasive chop saw. Much more likely to finish the job before dying. Just don't buy your cutoff wheels where you get the saw, buy good ones at the big diy store.

Gloves, goggles, face shield, hearing protection, of course. The fire out the back side is unnerving at first, got to pay attention to where it goes.

If you managed to stick two pieces of metal together with flux core wire, you'll be an expert in no time with MIG.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

get a cheap abrasive saw or a harbor freight 4x6 dry bandsaw. If you go abrasive just don't force the blade. Let it do the work to minimize drift.

 

[day_trippr]

Add-in: Can this Ryobi Miter be turned into a decent mitering saw (only angle: 45) for 14 ga 2 x 2, even if it dies after the job?[...]

That looks like a newer version of the old Ryobi 10" I fitted a cutting wheel to and cut up all the parts for my stand, including all the mitered corners.
You found an ad for my model and they look pretty similar from here. Should work just fine.

Cheers!

 

[ancientmariner52]

Day_trippr, are you referring to an abrasive wheel?

Gadjobrinus, I always defer to actual experience. Forget all my speculations. Didn't expect the Ryobi to have enough power to pull a cutoff wheel. Clearly, I was wrong.

 

[day_trippr]

Yes, exactly. I used an inexpensive Diablo wheel from Home Depot.

It made very nice cuts through 1-1/2" square 14 ga mild and quite quickly at that.
I definitely recommend setting up outdoors though. I did some cutting in my shop while practicing the whole measure-cut-tack-weld process and there was metal dust all over. Not the first time I made a hella mess out of my shop
I cut the actual stand parts outside...

Cheers!

 

[sandyeggoxj]

1. The metal dust will get everywhere.
2. Don't breathe that **** in. It is not good for you. Use a respirator of some kind. I would also advise against welding without a P100 welding rated respirator. The fumes are no bueno. They are cheap (<$30) and worth it in the long run.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Alright thanks guys, for all your help. Haven't heard back from the Ryobi CL guy so he might have sold it, but will keep looking.

Brings up this noob question - I don't know I'll be able to find a place to weld warm, certainly won't be our garage. For mild steel, welding in cold weather, do you still risk - what is it, forget, either H2 getting to it, or egress - cracking and weld root failure, pretty serious development in the middle of 3 full vessels? One of the books simply says "mild steel can resist the effect more easily," I paraphrase. That's all I've found, except a blanket thing on the web, don't weld cold metal. Suggestions, in the absence of a torch? Spring, lol?