Equipment crossroads.

CornyKegs 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
G

gatsby174

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2013
Messages
58
Reaction score
9
I find myself at a crossroads and need to decide which path makes the most sense. I currently brew with a 10 gallon brew kettle fired on propane and a 10 gallon SS Brewtech mashtun. I brew in an unheated shop (but have lots of space) so there are usually a couple weeks a year I can’t brew; I refuse to wash the equipment below 40 degrees. I want to put all my gear on a dedicated beer stand instead of a couple different stands. My father is willing to weld the stand for me once I lay it out. I’ve gotten my process refined and usually hit 85%+ mash efficiency and almost that in brewhouse efficiency. I’m also getting old enough so that hefting the BK to dump into the MT isn’t as easy as it used to be, so I’ll be adding a second pump with this transition.

With the upgraded stand I also want to upgrade my volume ability to 10 gallon batches. With the mash tun, on a cold day I lose 1.5-2 degrees over the 60 minutes. When I brew in good weather the drop isn’t enough to worry about. Hence I want a low cost solution and was thinking a RIMS would be a low cost viable solution. If I upgrade to 20 gallon brew kettles (probably SS Brewtech, brewmaster editions) is the rims going to solve my cold weather mash issue?

Is it worth my time to explore an all in one system before going down the path of upgrading? I do like perfecting my process and enjoying the high efficiencies…and going 3v with my current system would be pretty inexpensive, I think.

Should I rethink my approach?
 
I brewed on a big system for years. 3 vessel, lots of SS, big electric brewery panel on the wall, tubing everywhere, two pumps. It was a lot of fun.

My back has been FUBAR for about 10 yrs now. I could handle the brewing, but cleaning all that stuff was a mighty pain in the azz. So, reluctantly, I switched to one of these fancy all-in-ones. It's 240V so it heats quickly, but it's only 5g. That concerned me at the time.

The end of the story is I LOVE it. I never lift it, so cleaning is a breeze. It's so tidy and self-contained, internal pump etc.

If you're really concerned about efficiency, an AIO is not for you. You'll drop 10%. But really ask yourself, how important is that really? Think about it.

BTW, I bought the SS Brewtech SVBS.
 
Simplify, enjoy life. Clean less stuff, spend less time. You don’t need an elaborate “system” to make wort. Keep it simple, shoot for 4 + gallons and ferment in a corny keg do pressurized transfers to serving keg. You’ll get good beer, “brewing” is the easy part.
 
passedpawn said:
I brewed on a big system for years. 3 vessel, lots of SS, big electric brewery panel on the wall, tubing everywhere, two pumps. It was a lot of fun.

My back has been FUBAR for about 10 yrs now. I could handle the brewing, but cleaning all that stuff was a mighty pain in the azz. So, reluctantly, I switched to one of these fancy all-in-ones. It's 240V so it heats quickly, but it's only 5g. That concerned me at the time.

The end of the story is I LOVE it. I never lift it, so cleaning is a breeze. It's so tidy and self-contained, internal pump etc.

If you're really concerned about efficiency, an AIO is not for you. You'll drop 10%. But really ask yourself, how important is that really? Think about it.

BTW, I bought the SS Brewtech SVBS.
Click to expand...
You only lost 10% efficiency? That doesn’t seem like a lot more grain, especially since the SS svbs is half the cost of the spike. How long have you been brewing on it?
 
I brew 10+ gallon batches in junky looking a 3 vessel I put together from abandoned 15 gallon half kegs. Brewed a few dozen batches w propane, then converted the system to 240V electric. About to to do batch #199.

On the mash temp drop, I would not worry about it so much. Although it would be easy enough to add a HERMS coil to my rig, I find is not really necessary if I mash a few degrees higher in cold weather.

I understand the practicality of a smaller and easier brew rig though, and back, shoulder, etc pain. Maybe I'll have to go smaller & easier at some point, but am learning a lot and brewing some very good beer w this rig, so I'll probably keep with is as long as I can.

Cold weather is not so bad in my opinion, good to get out of the house anyway.
IMG_0415.JPG
 
I'm on the sidelines with the electric AIO systems. I brew ten gallon all grain with a four vessel system in a dedicated basement spot. Natural gas for the brew pot and an electric HLT.

I'm good with my setup but keep looking at easier alternatives. There's a tradeoff with every system and brewing location for that matter.
 
Many people that find themselves in a similar situation tend to upgrade to larger batches but I'm just going to suggest that you stop and really ask yourself why you want to double your batch size. Sometimes it's just taken for granted that it's better. More is better right? More of what? More of the same beer you just drank. Is it that you run out of beer faster than you can brew? Would you like to brew more often but you can't? Why not?

Brewing more often is more conducive to becoming a better brewer and more variety. You'll have the chance to tweak recipes further in the direction of what you actually want.

Aside from the batch size topic, I firmly believe electrically fired/controlled, single vessel, no-sparge is a better fit for most people's needs. There are a few minor situations where it's not the right path, but I think those cases are generally isolated. Talk more about what you're trying to accomplish. Sometimes it's hard to separate what your goals are in isolation and future plans are always in context to what gear you're currently using. Don't let those sunk costs blur your vision.
 
I switched from a propane keggle setup to an AIO, and have been very glad with the shift. Although it doesn't look as "cool", the simplicity lets me enjoy the brew day more and focus on the beer. I'd highly recommend it as a consideration.
 
I see this thread is gonna go straight to the "AIO is better than a 3 vessel system". It's not.

3 vessel is definitely better. If you've got the space for it ... If you're young and full of gusto... go for it. It's a LOT of fun, and it is the best way to go in that case.

As you get older, it doesn't work anymore, for all the reasons above.
 
Well I often find myself brewing the same recipe concurrently (fruited sour, hefeweizen, pale ales). Also, my father in law is contemplating a kegerator. If he has one we could brew one batch and split it after the ferment
 
passedpawn said:
I see this thread is gonna go straight to the "AIO is better than a 3 vessel system". It's not.

3 vessel is definitely better. If you've got the space for it ... If you're young and full of gusto... go for it. It's a LOT of fun, and it is the best way to go in that case.

As you get older, it doesn't work anymore, for all the reasons above.
Click to expand...
I'm with you! I love my system, I'm not young or full of gusto, but yes it is fun to brew on and I think I have more flexibility using it.

But, whatever works best for each person.

I routinely split my ten gallon batches, like in the case of a wheat beer, one flavored, one not.
 
passedpawn said:
I see this thread is gonna go straight to the "AIO is better than a 3 vessel system". It's not.

3 vessel is definitely better. If you've got the space for it ... If you're young and full of gusto... go for it. It's a LOT of fun, and it is the best way to go in that case.

As you get older, it doesn't work anymore, for all the reasons above.
Click to expand...

Better for what though?
 
Last edited:
I interpret that as meaning there is more hands-on involvement required with a 3v rig which I suppose could mean more excitement. Certainly there are more ways to screw things up and getting them right provides many little brew day victories 😁

But - and this just occurred to me - can you not brew bigger beers with a full 3v rig than an AIO of similar vessel size?

Cheers!
 
I'm not pushing one over another, but I can see advantages in both and the disadvantages too. There's going to be trade offs with either system but it's how willing we are to work with them, work around them or work them out.

An AIO system has most of the key components built in. Sure this makes it compact. Some brewers might look at it as a disadvantage or an advantage.

My multi-vessel system has most everything separate. Yup, it takes more real estate but if one component fails I can usually work around it and still complete my brew day.

If I were new to brewing with no equipment I would consider an AIO but I'd also look at the other options, just like the OP is doing.
 
For big beers I think any system can accomplish that depending on the outcome size you want.

I designed my 4V system to brew 15 gallon batches so I can brew any lesser amounts or very BIG beers.
 
day_trippr said:
But - and this just occurred to me - can you not brew bigger beers with a full 3v rig than an AIO of similar vessel size?
Click to expand...
Bigger in batch size or bigger in gravity? Either way, you build your system to handle what your batch range goals are. I have a 15 gallon single vessel system and my desired batch size that drove that choice is 6 gallons into the fermenter at any gravity I want. I've gone as high as 12%ABV.

Are you asking can I make a bigger batch if I had 3 x 15 gallon kettles? Yes, that can make 10 gallon batches. It's apples and oranges though; 15 gallons vs 45 gallons of total system capacity.

In other words, If I wanted to make 6 or 11 gallon batches, my single vessel kettle would be 20 instead of 15.
 
OakIslandBrewery said:
An AIO system has most of the key components built in. Sure this makes it compact. Some brewers might look at it as a disadvantage or an advantage.
Click to expand...

Correction of a false dichotomy when these topics come up; It's not 3V vs AIO. It's really about considering a full system choice based on goals. I brew on a system that is similar to an AIO in that it's a single vessel and the grain is removed from the wort. That's where it ends. Nothing is integrated. The controller is standalone, the element is replaceable, the pump is external, etc. If all those things are in the "pro" column for anyone's system decision, it's not necessarily limited to a 3 vessel system.
 
day_trippr said:
But - and this just occurred to me - can you not brew bigger beers with a full 3v rig than an AIO of similar vessel size?
Click to expand...
Big beers aren’t a problem for AIO systems. It might be necessary to split the grist and use wort from the first mash as liquor for the second. Not a big deal. Just another mash.
 
Perhaps I'm confused in the term All In One system. I think of it as a piece of equipment that has the heating element built into the base and possibly the pump too. Everything is done ( less fermenting) in one unit.
 
OakIslandBrewery said:
Perhaps I'm confused in the term All In One system. I think of it as a piece of equipment that has the heating element built into the base and possibly the pump too. Everything is done ( less fermenting) in one unit.
Click to expand...
Not all AIO systems are the same. Some, including mine, a Braumeister, have a relatively high minimum liquor volume with a more limited grist capacity. Essentially, ‘looser’ mash systems. Other AIO systems not so much. Most of my worts have a gravity <1.050. Occasional 1.065 is no problem. Much above 1.075 (with brewing sugar) and I’m going to need to split the grist in two to mash twice. A once or twice event a year for me. But I enjoy drinking beer and don’t want to be necking bigger beers. I’d get too mullered.
 
OakIslandBrewery said:
Perhaps I'm confused in the term All In One system. I think of it as a piece of equipment that has the heating element built into the base and possibly the pump too. Everything is done ( less fermenting) in one unit.
Click to expand...

All In One systems "generally" include a boiler with an integrated heating element in the bottom, a grain basket with some kind of hanging bracket (usually called a malt pipe) and usually an immersion wort chiller. Some of them include a recirculation pump in the base and some pumps are an upgradeable external accessory. Anvil Foundry, Kegland Brewzilla, Mash and Boil, Grainfather, SS Brewtech SVBS, Brewtools, Braumeister and others.

My point is that AIO systems are a subset of single vessel brewing systems assembled in a simple buy-once package. There are other systems that behave in a similar way such as the Spike Solo, Blichmann Breweasy Compact, and my series of eBIAB kettle builds similar to what I brew on. These systems have all the same "hot rodded" performance (5500 watt elements, powerful pumps, etc) you'd find in popular turnkey 3-vessel systems but they don't have the same concerns about integration based obsolescence that many people have with AIO "coffee urn" system.
 
I've been following the 3V vs AIO/BIAB themed threads as I've been slowly building my next 3V system, but part of me just wants the compactness of an AIO or BIAB...thing is; In my current practice, I've eleminated O2 exposure entirely on the cold-side and I've been trying to plan for hot-side O2 elimination, as every step I took towards LODO has richly rewarded my palate so it's fair to say; "LODO is my destiny". I'm aware of all SS plumbing (as well as some esoteric expensive specialized tubing), mash-caps, and no-bubbling recirculation and such, but I haven't seen a LODO perspective yet.
Can you use a mash cap in a Brewzilla or BIAB in a practical and effective way? What do you do about the built in silicone plumbing in the base of the unit?
At the time I finally signed up on this site, almost any posted question was turned into pages of O2 polemics.... I never thought I'd have to ask for the LODO crowd to weigh in, but please do.
:mug:
 
Broken Crow said:
At the time I finally signed up on this site, almost any posted question was turned into pages of O2 polemics.... I never thought I'd have to ask for the LODO crowd to weigh in, but please do.
Click to expand...
Moderator's note:

No - please don't. We have a separate LoDO sub-forum for the reason stated in the first quoted sentence. If LoDO in "remove the grain from the wort" vs. "remove the wort from the grain" systems is of interest, then please find an existing appropriate thread in the LoDO subforum, or start one if none exists.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator
 
doug293cz said:
Moderator's note:

No - please don't. We have a separate LoDO sub-forum for the reason stated in the first quoted sentence. If LoDO in "remove the grain from the wort" vs. "remove the wort from the grain" systems is of interest, then please find an existing appropriate thread in the LoDO subforum, or start one if none exists.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator
Click to expand...
Sorry...my bad. I found the off-subject polemics so off-putting I must have blocked out that there was a specific subforum for that stuff...never occurred to me to search AIO or BIAB in there.
Thanks! :mug:
 
passedpawn said:
I see this thread is gonna go straight to the "AIO is better than a 3 vessel system". It's not.

3 vessel is definitely better. If you've got the space for it ... If you're young and full of gusto... go for it. It's a LOT of fun, and it is the best way to go in that case.

As you get older, it doesn't work anymore, for all the reasons above.
Click to expand...
I currently have a three vessel, low tech (gravity fed, coolers for mash and sparge) propane system. Couple years ago upgraded to 15 gallon Spike kettle, which works great and gives flexibility. Have been brewing on this system for 5.5 years, nothing wrong with it, but would like more precision in numbers as well as some automation, and less work on brew days.

I'm looking at AIO (Grainfather, brew tech, spike). What do you mean that 3 Vessel system is definitely better? Can you expand why?
 
In my experience, folks who move from low tech 3 vessel systems to high tech single vessel electric systems often wonder why they waited so long, especially if that change allows them to set up a permanent indoor brewing space. The lack of open flame, carbon monoxide and smaller footprint is usually the reason it's possible. There are people who cling to the nostalgia of 3-vessel brewing because that's what they learned on, or what their sensei brewed on, or they just "know" that it's right way to brew. On the other hand, I'm so confident that a high end eBIAB setup will change your brewing for the better that I'll put my money where my mouth is. If you buy a system from me and you hate it after 3 brew days, I'll buy it back at full price with no restocking fee.

  • Depending on the controller choice, It will run almost completely unattended other than stirring the grain in, hoisting the bag, and doing the hop additions.
  • It can perform the fastest step mashes of any electrically controlled system
  • 4 hour average brew day (startup to dough in is about 20-25 minutes of heating time)
  • 1 vessel to clean
 
Bobby_M said:
In my experience, folks who move from low tech 3 vessel systems to high tech single vessel electric systems often wonder why they waited so long, especially if that change allows them to set up a permanent indoor brewing space. The lack of open flame, carbon monoxide and smaller footprint is usually the reason it's possible. There are people who cling to the nostalgia of 3-vessel brewing because that's what they learned on, or what their sensei brewed on, or they just "know" that it's right way to brew. On the other hand, I'm so confident that a high end eBIAB setup will change your brewing for the better that I'll put my money where my mouth is. If you buy a system from me and you hate it after 3 brew days, I'll buy it back at full price with no restocking fee.

  • Depending on the controller choice, It will run almost completely unattended other than stirring the grain in, hoisting the bag, and doing the hop additions.
  • It can perform the fastest step mashes of any electrically controlled system
  • 4 hour average brew day (startup to dough in is about 20-25 minutes of heating time)
  • 1 vessel to clean
Click to expand...
Great info! Thanks for sharing all that.

Honestly I'm not ready to switch just yet but you bring up many great reasons to do so!

Again, thanks a bunch!
 
Bobby_M said:
In my experience, folks who move from low tech 3 vessel systems to high tech single vessel electric systems often wonder why they waited so long, especially if that change allows them to set up a permanent indoor brewing space. The lack of open flame, carbon monoxide and smaller footprint is usually the reason it's possible. There are people who cling to the nostalgia of 3-vessel brewing because that's what they learned on, or what their sensei brewed on, or they just "know" that it's right way to brew. On the other hand, I'm so confident that a high end eBIAB setup will change your brewing for the better that I'll put my money where my mouth is. If you buy a system from me and you hate it after 3 brew days, I'll buy it back at full price with no restocking fee.

  • Depending on the controller choice, It will run almost completely unattended other than stirring the grain in, hoisting the bag, and doing the hop additions.
  • It can perform the fastest step mashes of any electrically controlled system
  • 4 hour average brew day (startup to dough in is about 20-25 minutes of heating time)
  • 1 vessel to clean
Click to expand...
LOL. 3 vessel is low tech. Cmon bobby, that is just not true. You're just trying to be provocative.
 
passedpawn said:
LOL. 3 vessel is low tech. Cmon bobby, that is just not true. You're just trying to be provocative.
Click to expand...
The amount of "tech" in any given system is quite variable. A 3 vessel built with two round igloo coolers with a stripped plumbing braid as the false bottom and a single kettle sitting on a propane burner is about as low tech as I could stand. That's what I mean when I say a low tech 3 vessel. No electric, no controllers, no pumps. On the far end of the spectrum is your typical Spike Trio or Blichmann 3V system. All stainless, two pumps, $2K electric controller. That's high tech 3V.

BIAB can be low tech also. Just a pot and a bag on top of the stove. It can be high tech as well, like mine...

I'm talking about switching from a low tech 3v to a high tech 1V which is the biggest jump from all hands on pain in the ass to hands off, short brew day bliss.

No provocation intended but if that ruffles someone's feathers, let's chat about it.
 
passedpawn said:
LOL. 3 vessel is low tech. Cmon bobby, that is just not true. You're just trying to be provocative.
Click to expand...

I took it to mean a low tech 3V vs a High Tech 3V. Ditto for an AIO, they can span a range. Not that all 3V's are inherently low tech, just that some are. and if yours happens to be, then a high tech AIO might beat it.

And - edit - looks like he already answered it a moment before me.
 
McMullan said:
Big beers aren’t a problem for AIO systems. It might be necessary to split the grist and use wort from the first mash as liquor for the second. Not a big deal. Just another mash.
Click to expand...
Exactly that. Re-iterative mashes are an extra step(s) in a brew day and can produce 1.100+ wort on my 38 litre eBIAB
Bobby_M said:
If you buy a system from me and you hate it after 3 brew days, I'll buy it back at full price with no restocking fee.
Click to expand...
Take note of ^^^^this. I brew on one of these systems. This is a great offer. No risk to you aside from shipping it back to @Bobby_M . And I predict you won't have to.

Cheers!

Chris
 
tracer bullet said:
I took it to mean a low tech 3V vs a High Tech 3V. Ditto for an AIO, they can span a range. Not that all 3V's are inherently low tech, just that some are. and if yours happens to be, then a high tech AIO might beat it.

And - edit - looks like he already answered it a moment before me.
Click to expand...
And to be fair, it was the post #25 that the poster used the words "low tech". That wasn't my choice of words, it was his. HE said he has a low tech 3V so I contrasted a low tech 3V against a high tech 1V and made a point about that move.
 
Exception13 said:
Exactly that. Re-iterative mashes are an extra step(s) in a brew day and can produce 1.100+ wort on my 38 litre eBIAB

Take note of ^^^^this. I brew on one of these systems. This is a great offer. No risk to you aside from shipping it back to @Bobby_M . And I predict you won't have to.

Cheers!

Chris
Click to expand...
Did I mention how much more profit I make on 3V systems?
 

Similar threads

N
Sold Mt. Airy, MD. 20 Gallon System for sale
Replies
5
Views
711
nmg283
N
fljim
SS Brewtech 1BBL Unitank - BEWARE!!
Replies
22
Views
868
Indian_villager
I
B
For Sale SS brewtech E HERMS system
Replies
0
Views
412
Bvfbrewing
B
U
Unexpected Favorite equipment
Replies
38
Views
2K
Yesfan
Yesfan
wmubronco
For Sale 15/20 gallon KAL clone 240V 50A system - Metro Detroit, MI
Replies
1
Views
222
wmubronco
wmubronco
InkBird 300

Latest posts

Back
Top