RIMS for Dummies

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If you are doing a 10 gallon batch with this would you be able to do a step mash in a reasonable amount of time? Or say you want to mash out at 165 how long would it take to heat all your liquid up to that temp?

Basically is this suited best for holding a temp once you are there or can you use it for step mashes as well?
 
MgMt_Home_Brew said:
If you are doing a 10 gallon batch with this would you be able to do a step mash in a reasonable amount of time? Or say you want to mash out at 165 how long would it take to heat all your liquid up to that temp?

Basically is this suited best for holding a temp once you are there or can you use it for step mashes as well?
Click to expand...

To be very honest, I have never tried it. I know I will get crucified here but I do not see the need to step mash with todays fully modified malts. There are those who vehemently disagree with me but I wrote a little informational post explaining my opinion and why at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/malt-modification-how-read-malt-analysis-sheet-143252/. With that being said, a stepped mash with the setup as drawn in the original post could take a little time, but if one were to use a higher wattage extra low density element (4500 Watt Extra Low Density Element) in a longer RIMS tube, I bet respectable step times could be achieved with proper PID adjustments.
 
Guy... Got a question and I think I'm going to feel like a real idiot...
Can you ruin the stainless pipe threads by over tightening?

I bought the stainless and built the heater. I wrapped all the threads with teflon (4-6 wraps) and tightened everything down TIGHT. I didn't think about how big 2" pipe is until it showed up. I ended up using a vice and my only pipe wrench to tighten everything. Before I made the electrical connections I wanted to check for leaks so I installed a pressure gage, tire valve and a plug in the openings. I used a bicycle pump to pressurize to 25psi and sat it aside. Next day the pressure had dropped to zero. I pumped it back up and sprayed it down with soapy water... nearly EVERY joint was bubbling!!! Because of the orientation of the tees, I had to get a full rotation between the two of them, and it was all I could do TIGHT TIGHT TIGHT. I next went after one of the reducers and could not stop the leak by tightening so decided to re-tape that joint... And this is where the problem appeared... I nearly never got it apart and when I did, the threads looked like hell! I took a small file and cleaned up the threads as best I could. I wrapped the the threads MANY times and reassembled the joint but this time just "snug". No leaks at that joint.

I'm afraid to take the other joints apart. Do you think I destroyed the threads?

Ed
 
MgMt_Home_Brew said:
If you are doing a 10 gallon batch with this would you be able to do a step mash in a reasonable amount of time? Or say you want to mash out at 165 how long would it take to heat all your liquid up to that temp?

Basically is this suited best for holding a temp once you are there or can you use it for step mashes as well?
Click to expand...

I mistakenly tested this theory although I was not doing a step mash. In my case I had a switch set to manual instead of auto and my controller (BCS) was not actually in control. When I finally realized it 30 minutes into the mash I had dropped 10 degrees below where I wanted to be. I extended the mash another 30 minutes and bumped up the temps but it never recovered all the way back to the temps I wanted. It was 35lbs of grain and that small RIMS heating area was just not up to it.

The beer however turned out fine anyway - it actually converts rather fast and the standard 1 hour mash time is a bit overkill IMO, but I do it anyway.
 
Ohio-Ed said:
Guy... Got a question and I think I'm going to feel like a real idiot...
Can you ruin the stainless pipe threads by over tightening?

I bought the stainless and built the heater. I wrapped all the threads with teflon (4-6 wraps) and tightened everything down TIGHT. I didn't think about how big 2" pipe is until it showed up. I ended up using a vice and my only pipe wrench to tighten everything. Before I made the electrical connections I wanted to check for leaks so I installed a pressure gage, tire valve and a plug in the openings. I used a bicycle pump to pressurize to 25psi and sat it aside. Next day the pressure had dropped to zero. I pumped it back up and sprayed it down with soapy water... nearly EVERY joint was bubbling!!! Because of the orientation of the tees, I had to get a full rotation between the two of them, and it was all I could do TIGHT TIGHT TIGHT. I next went after one of the reducers and could not stop the leak by tightening so decided to re-tape that joint... And this is where the problem appeared... I nearly never got it apart and when I did, the threads looked like hell! I took a small file and cleaned up the threads as best I could. I wrapped the the threads MANY times and reassembled the joint but this time just "snug". No leaks at that joint.

I'm afraid to take the other joints apart. Do you think I destroyed the threads?

Ed
Click to expand...

You should be ok Ed if there are no leaks. I had to retape mine also. I grabbed the wrong teflon tape the first time. I had teflon tape for gas and regular teflon tape. Don't ya know when I was piecing the RIMS tube together I grabbed the Teflon tape for Gas. I got about half way done before I noticed. I didn't want to take any chances so I started from scratch not knowing if the teflon tape for gas would have worked. I ran a test for leaks and got lucky. No leaks the first time.
 
I know it's not specifically rated for liquid, but I prefer the teflon tape for gas better. I am able to get a tighter seal for everything.
 
Ohio-Ed said:
Guy... Got a question and I think I'm going to feel like a real idiot...
Can you ruin the stainless pipe threads by over tightening?

I bought the stainless and built the heater. I wrapped all the threads with teflon (4-6 wraps) and tightened everything down TIGHT. I didn't think about how big 2" pipe is until it showed up. I ended up using a vice and my only pipe wrench to tighten everything. Before I made the electrical connections I wanted to check for leaks so I installed a pressure gage, tire valve and a plug in the openings. I used a bicycle pump to pressurize to 25psi and sat it aside. Next day the pressure had dropped to zero. I pumped it back up and sprayed it down with soapy water... nearly EVERY joint was bubbling!!! Because of the orientation of the tees, I had to get a full rotation between the two of them, and it was all I could do TIGHT TIGHT TIGHT. I next went after one of the reducers and could not stop the leak by tightening so decided to re-tape that joint... And this is where the problem appeared... I nearly never got it apart and when I did, the threads looked like hell! I took a small file and cleaned up the threads as best I could. I wrapped the the threads MANY times and reassembled the joint but this time just "snug". No leaks at that joint.

I'm afraid to take the other joints apart. Do you think I destroyed the threads?

Ed
Click to expand...



I doubt that you destroyed the threads. Teflon tape does not seal threaded fittings. Rather it lubricates the threads so that you can tighten them enough to get a seal. The threads themselves make the seal, as you probably saw when you disassembled the fitting and saw bare threads. 2" pipe is pretty big and really necessitates at least an 18" pipe wrench and crescent to adequately tighten. that being said you can overtighten threaded fittings. I would take it all apart, wrap everything with 10 full wraps of tape ( make sure you are wrapping in the right direction), and reassemble till everything is quite snug, and retest.
 
I tried step mashing in my no-sparge setup by direct firing the kettle, which is equivalent to a 4kW element by my calcs. It worked OK, but the ramp was slower than I would have liked. After trying it once, I am going to go back to good ol' multiple infusion for step mashing, and just let the RIMS maintain temps.
 
thank you everyone, this thread has been very helpful and informative. i'm looking into using this setup and possibly adding the brewtroller. i would love to get as automated as possible.
 
I was wondering how much it would improve your final output from your mash tun if you mounted the HEX above the tun. I'm just thinking that it is one more piece of equipment that doesn't drain all the way, so you now have wort loss in the HEX, in the mash tun, in the pump, etc. Maybe a bit anal retentive on my part, but it's just something I've been thinking about.
 
The way I have it installed. I have the inlet pointed downward towards the pump and the outlet opening up. That way gravity does all the work on getting all of the liquid out. I send my sparge water through the HEX also so getting every drop of wort out isn't an issue for me.
 
It sounds to me like your HEX is mounted before your pump then, not after....I was thinking about putting it after the pump, but I guess it makes more sense to put it BEFORE the pump.
 
No... it is after the pump.
RIMS%20002.JPG
 
SWEET!!! Pictures I can understand lol. I don't know if it will work with my plan to use gravity to feed the MLT while I pump off to the HLT. My idea for my brewery is heat my sparge water in the hlt, pump it to my sparge water tank (cooler). Pump the mlt to the hlt and begin sparging. Pump that off to the hlt too. After the boil I want to use the pump to then transfer to the fermenter. I guess it will get cleaned out when I run hot water through it.
 
I heat my strike water with the HEX while I heat up the sparge water on the stove in the HLT. I don't know if that is the "correct" way... but it worked great for me. With the aspect that I need to put everything away, I still siphon out of my fermenter while it's in the sink with my chiller in it.

Your idea sounds like it will work... it is in fact how I was going to set all this up when it was starting life as a HERMS.
 
I was going to do it that rout, but kegs don't really heat up well on electric stoves, and 10 gallons will be a bit much for my stove.
 
Add me to the list of inspired by this thread! I'm gettting ready to order the parts!
 
Just ordered everyhing exactly has you listed, except for the ball valve, which I can source locally, and the March Pump, which I got off ebay for $110, shipped (there's more available if you need 'em).

Thanks again for this great tutorial!
 
I was all set up to go HERMS...till I seen this. I like this, I like HERMS...I don't know what I'm going to do anymore.
 
dougugly said:
I was all set up to go HERMS...till I seen this. I like this, I like HERMS...I don't know what I'm going to do anymore.
Click to expand...

Me too. I wanted something really compact, and was trying to figure out how to make a small HERMS (little cooler? Big PVC Pipe) and then I stumbled upon this thread. I was intimidated by RIMS becuase I thought it would scorch the wort (or I'd fry the element runnning it dry), but after reading about the kind of flow these have and the use of the PID (I'm familiar with 'em as I have one for my electric smoker and my espresso machine - both from Auber) any fear I had was gone - as long as I rember to ensure there's a good flow before I engage the element!
 
This is really nice, compact to boot! I'm going to have to build one of these on my own. I've been eyeballing different controllers for different tasks, maybe I'll just buy a brewtroller/BCS and not have to buy another one :)
 
I love your design here. It looks just like the one that we built on our sr design project.

If you were to simply reverse your heating manifold you would have the fluid flowing out of the mash go across the thermocouple first, then based on your pid logic your heater would turn on or off.

From your drawing you are measuring the liquid temp as it exits the heater. That temp is not necessarily the temp in your mash tun (due to evaporation loss, convection loss, etc) and if the volume of liquid that you are mashing is small enough you could possibly have a noticeable differential.

Just a thought. :mug:
 
clay9_24 said:
If you were to simply reverse your heating manifold you would have the fluid flowing out of the mash go across the thermocouple first, then based on your pid logic your heater would turn on or off.
Click to expand...

Bad idea.

Placing the sensor at the intake instead of the exit would effectively break the control loop (due to the very slow response of the mash tun volume). The PID algorithm would be useless at that point since the wort exiting the manifold would be significantly hotter than the wort in the tun, thus rapidly degrading the enzymes and most likely scorching the wort. ;)

clay9_24 said:
From your drawing you are measuring the liquid temp as it exits the heater. That temp is not necessarily the temp in your mash tun...
Click to expand...

Correct, you need a second thermometer in the mash tun to measure the actual temperature of the mash. For example, I use a bimetal analog thermometer connected to the tun with a bulkhead fitting.
 
clay9_24 said:
I love your design here. It looks just like the one that we built on our sr design project.

If you were to simply reverse your heating manifold you would have the fluid flowing out of the mash go across the thermocouple first, then based on your pid logic your heater would turn on or off.

From your drawing you are measuring the liquid temp as it exits the heater. That temp is not necessarily the temp in your mash tun (due to evaporation loss, convection loss, etc) and if the volume of liquid that you are mashing is small enough you could possibly have a noticeable differential.

Just a thought. :mug:
Click to expand...

You must measure the temperature as it exits the heater or you risk overshoots. If you read the RIMS threads on the forum you will come to realize this.
 
ikonis said:
I heat my strike water with the HEX while I heat up the sparge water on the stove in the HLT. I don't know if that is the "correct" way... but it worked great for me.
Click to expand...

Ikonis, thanks for the pic!:mug: I especially like the "one up, one down" design....it solves 2 problems I had...first being air in the system, leaving the element exposed....and second, I didn't want residual fluid in there to cause corrosion, funk, etc.

So let me ask you this:

1) What kind of flow rate are you getting when heating water to strike temp, say 170F? How long does it take you to get 5 or so gallons of strike water?

2) What type/size of element are you using?

3) I've noticed the 4500/5500w 240v elements have a ripple, effectively creating the need for a pipe with about 3.5" ID. They are also about 14" long. Stupid question, but could you bend one of these elements? More importantly, would a 5500w element be too much juice to recirc wort for step mashing/mashout?

This thread rocks!
:rockin:
 
Ikonis, thanks for the pic!:mug: I especially like the "one up, one down" design....it solves 2 problems I had...first being air in the system, leaving the element exposed....and second, I didn't want residual fluid in there to cause corrosion, funk, etc.

So let me ask you this:

1) What kind of flow rate are you getting when heating water to strike temp, say 170F? How long does it take you to get 5 or so gallons of strike water?
Click to expand...
For my last 5 gallon batch, I heated 13.75qts of strike water to temp in just about 10 minutes or so. Of course, I started with the hottest (roughly 120 deg) tap water I could get out of my faucet (with a pur filter of course). As far as flow rate: For heating the strike water and recirc, I just leave all the valves open all the way.

2) What type/size of element are you using?
Click to expand...
1500 Ultra Low Density 120v element. It has the bend in it, but just squeezed together tighter so it doesn't sit on the pipe.

3) I've noticed the 4500/5500w 240v elements have a ripple, effectively creating the need for a pipe with about 3.5" ID. They are also about 14" long. Stupid question, but could you bend one of these elements? More importantly, would a 5500w element be too much juice to recirc wort for step mashing/mashout?
Click to expand...
As I didn't even experiment with 240v, I wouldn't be able to answer this for you. I would imagine though, that that would be a whole lot of volume in the pipe. I would think it would be hard to use it to heat strike water with that. Recirc? I don't know whatsoever. I would have loved to go 240v (for more amps), but I didn't feel like rewiring the house to give me a 240v source.

This thread rocks!
:rockin:
Click to expand...
INDEED!
 
Oh and another thing, I have noticed that while in my situation, priming the pump is not an issue. The issue I am having, is the head pressure of the pump. So I need to re-plumb the exit from the "pipe-bomb" to have a shorter hose.
 
Thanks for the update! I'm surprised to see that you get those results with a 120V element. It seems like people are getting good results with a LD 5500w element. It's not HD, so scorching is less of a concern, and it's profile is such that it can still fit in a 1.5"pipe.

Head pressure is definitely a concern in my system. I've got it all mapped out, but if the pump can't move the fluid, then it's a bust. How high were you trying to take the wort from the output? I assume your RIMS is 1.5" in diameter? It seems that a lot of the pressure comes from filling the RIMS chamber......
 
ScubaSteve said:
Thanks for the update! I'm surprised to see that you get those results with a 120V element. It seems like people are getting good results with a LD 5500w element. It's not HD, so scorching is less of a concern, and it's profile is such that it can still fit in a 1.5"pipe.

Head pressure is definitely a concern in my system. I've got it all mapped out, but if the pump can't move the fluid, then it's a bust. How high were you trying to take the wort from the output? I assume your RIMS is 1.5" in diameter? It seems that a lot of the pressure comes from filling the RIMS chamber......
Click to expand...

Well.. as best as I can measure without actually measuring it, I need to go about 8 inches up above the tube. And my exit hose is approximately 3 feet long. The pressure drop is probably most definitely the pipe. It works, I just need to leave the element off until it's all flowing through the return manifold. It definitely works better with smaller beers, so I'm guessing it is also the flow rate of the mash itself. I was just thinking about plumbing the exit with rigid copper so I can take out as many inches of the tubing as possible. Also was going to add an inline sight glass at one point in it as well.
 
Sawdustguy said:
It was a transcription error. I meant to type 2" x 10" but had a brain fart.
Click to expand...

Doh, speaking of brain fart, I ordered my stuff last week and it arrived today (from Omega and Murray). I did not realize the proble was 12" long, though going back to the link in the parts list I see it is. And, when I ordered the pipe, I had the above reversed in my brain and though that the part number was wrong and not the dimesions and ordered the 6" pipe. The result is that I now have a 4" overlap of heating element and probe.

However, the probe in your pic does not appear to be 12" long. I'm thinking about scrapping the probe (see if I can returnit) all together and going with a 4" water tight RTD from Auber, and buying a 1/2"M x 1/4"F SS Reducer from BFO to make it work with my existing pipes. It seems to me a 10" pipe would barely keep the element and probe seperated...

Thoughts?
 
jrfuda said:
Doh, speaking of brain fart, I ordered my stuff last week and it arrived today (from Omega and Murray). I did not realize the proble was 12" long, though going back to the link in the parts list I see it is. And, when I ordered the pipe, I had the above reversed in my brain and though that the part number was wrong and not the dimesions and ordered the 6" pipe. The result is that I now have a 4" overlap of heating element and probe.

However, the probe in your pic does not appear to be 12" long. I'm thinking about scrapping the probe (see if I can returnit) all together and going with a 4" water tight RTD from Auber, and buying a 1/2"M x 1/4"F SS Reducer from BFO to make it work with my existing pipes. It seems to me a 10" pipe would barely keep the element and probe seperated...

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

My thermocouple probe is 4" not 12". I have no idea how you got a 12" thermocouple. I ordered the p/n I listed.
 
Sawdustguy said:
My thermocouple probe is 4" not 12". I have no idea how you got a 12" thermocouple. I ordered the p/n I listed.
Click to expand...

I think they must've changed their specs after you built yours. If you go to the url in your parts list:

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=NB1-RP_REPLACE_PROBE

and choose the part number, it ends up with a 12" probe no matter what. I think that the 12RP number in the part number is the length.

Not blaming you at all (justin case you thought I was), just think their site has changed.
 
jrfuda said:
I think they must've changed their specs after you built yours. If you go to the url in your parts list:

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=NB1-RP_REPLACE_PROBE

and choose the part number, it ends up with a 12" probe no matter what. I think that the 12RP number in the part number is the length.

Not blaming you at all (justin case you thought I was), just think their site has changed.
Click to expand...

No, I didn't expect you were blaming me but I can still feel bad that you got the wrong thermocouple. I am very sorry.
 
OK Sawdustguy, I know that this thread is titled RIMS for Dummies, but how difficult or easy is it to program/set-up the PID? My weak point is electronics. I'm placing the orders tomorrow if I can get some reassurance that its no big deal.
 
Santa brought me my pump and PID so yesterday was a test run and ran some oxyclean through the whole system. Today was brew day and my grain bill was for 70% efficiency and the beer OG was suppose to be .040 but it came in at .050 so I guess that makes my new RIM 85% efficiency. Hopefully I didn't over sparge because I dont have a HLT so I drained 1 gallon and added 2 gallons then heated the whole mash back up to 170 then drained 2 gallons and added 2 more then heated the whole mash back up to 170. I did an iodine test after 60 min mash it I did get full conversion. Next time Im going to use my 16 quart pot as my HLT due to RIMS taking too long to heat back up. Does anyone think I oversparged or messed up the mash by going from 170 to 130 then back to 170 degrees. Also do you run the pump to recirc the whole time you mash. Thanks and I luv my new RIMS and my ghetto fab brew rig
 
inspector13 said:
OK Sawdustguy, I know that this thread is titled RIMS for Dummies, but how difficult or easy is it to program/set-up the PID? My weak point is electronics. I'm placing the orders tomorrow if I can get some reassurance that its no big deal.
Click to expand...

Firstly, I want to thank you for inspecting everybodies underwear. ;):p You can always put the PID in auto mode and let it do the thinking for you. It is really not very difficult and there are many guys here who can help you.
 
jrfuda said:
Doh, speaking of brain fart, I ordered my stuff last week and it arrived today (from Omega and Murray). I did not realize the proble was 12" long, though going back to the link in the parts list I see it is. And, when I ordered the pipe, I had the above reversed in my brain and though that the part number was wrong and not the dimesions and ordered the 6" pipe. The result is that I now have a 4" overlap of heating element and probe.

However, the probe in your pic does not appear to be 12" long. I'm thinking about scrapping the probe (see if I can returnit) all together and going with a 4" water tight RTD from Auber, and buying a 1/2"M x 1/4"F SS Reducer from BFO to make it work with my existing pipes. It seems to me a 10" pipe would barely keep the element and probe seperated...

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Good news, Omega gave me an RMA for the 12" probe, so I'll only be out 2-way shipping. Auber's already shipped the new probe and the 1/2 to 1/4" adapter is on its way from BFO, so I'll have my parts together soon.
 
jrfuda said:
Good news, Omega gave me an RMA for the 12" probe, so I'll only be out 2-way shipping. Auber's already shipped the new probe and the 1/2 to 1/4" adapter is on its way from BFO, so I'll have my parts together soon.
Click to expand...

I feel a little better. I am really sorry. If you need any help, just give a yell. I will be happy to help you any way I can.
 
inspector13 said:
OK Sawdustguy, I know that this thread is titled RIMS for Dummies, but how difficult or easy is it to program/set-up the PID? My weak point is electronics. I'm placing the orders tomorrow if I can get some reassurance that its no big deal.
Click to expand...

Well if I can do it anyone can do it.

Pat
 

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