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Bernie Brewer
Grouchy Old Fart
Yes it does. At that point, you want oxygen back in there to get things rolling again.
Yeast Washing Illustrated
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Yes it does. At that point, you want oxygen back in there to get things rolling again.
Hey all,
New member here, but this forum has been very helpful for me. I've brewed several all grain recipes and been very satisfied with the results. I have always used a smack pack and have not used starters.
I would like to learn more about yeast so I decided I would try to wash some yeast and use it with later recipes. This also gives me a good excuse to begin making yeast starters.
I bottled my first beer (the beer that used the smack pack) last weekend and started a new beer, with some of my washed yeast. I'm a little anxious about the fermentation of that beer (it did not rocket off like so many have experienced), so I'd like to see what comments you all have about my washing and starter procedures.
First, the original beer. I brewed a northern english brown ale. The OG was 1.049 and the FG came in at 1.014. I pitched a smack pack of WYeast 1335 (British Ale II). Fermentation was great! I've never had a beer ferment as quickly as this one. I noticed a 1 in krausen about 7 hours after pitching the yeast. After 24 hours, the krausen reached the very top of my fermenter (5 gallon batch in a 6.5 gallon glass carboy). I fermented for 2 weeks in the primary, no secondary.
When it came time to wash the yeast, I had a 32oz mason jar with pre-boiled water ready to go at room temperature. I poured off half the water (watched a couple youtube videos that used much less water than is advocated in this thread), and poured the remaining half into my carboy. I gave that a swirl and poured almost all of the yeast cake / water mix back into my 32oz mason jar (it didn't all quite fit). I let that sit while I bottled. When I came back, there was about a 1in thick watery layer at the top that was amber in color, and transparent. Below that was an off white layer that took up about half the remaining volume in the jar. Below that there seemed to be a *slightly* darker off-white layer.
I poured off the watery layer and filled up 3 8oz mason jars (that is all I had sterilized, I wasn't sure how much yeast I was expecting to be able to get back). I capped the jars and put 2 of them in the fridge, and left one to be used immediately with a starter for my next beer. Below is a picture of the two in the fridge:
To make the yeast starter, I boiled 2 cups of water with 1/2 cup of DME. I cooled that to room temperature and added the yeast. I put that on a stir plate for about 24 hours. Here is a picture of the starter on the stir plate, maybe an hour before I pitched it (it is a little blurry).
So why am I all anxious about my fermentation? No krausen really ever formed on the fermenting beer. Okay, day 1 there was a little bit, maybe 1/4 inch tall, and it did leave a real thin ring behind. But the top of my beer is very clear right now, with some occasional patches of bubbles. I believe fermentation is taking place (*something* is taking place), I am getting a steady flow of air through the air lock and I can visually see small particles moving up and down in the wort. But this is the same yeast I used with my brown ale - the one that had a 1 in krausen within 7 hours and eventually reached the very top of the fermenter. Now this beer took about 12 hours begin showing any visible signs of fermentation, and barely had any krausen to speak of. The beer currently fermenting is an english pale ale, 1.054 OG.
I'll have a better idea what happened when I take a gravity reading. As a rule, I always let my ales sit for 2 weeks in the primary, rarely use a secondary (maybe for dry hopping), and only take a final reading when I'm bottling the beer. I'm too afraid of contaminating the beer. But while I'm waiting, I thought I'd see what thoughts you might have on my procedure and current beer.
Did I make too concentrated of a yeast slurry by only washing with around 16oz of water?
Does this sounds like ineffective yeast?
Could I have under-pitched? Was my starter a reasonable size?
Do the two jars in my fridge look okay? Would you use them based on the observations of my current batch?
Is everything okay? DWRAHAHB? (I worry about each of my beers the same and they have always turned out great. Not sure if that will ever go away)
I appreciate your thoughts.
Cheers!
New member here, but this forum has been very helpful for me. I've brewed several all grain recipes and been very satisfied with the results. I have always used a smack pack and have not used starters.
I would like to learn more about yeast so I decided I would try to wash some yeast and use it with later recipes. This also gives me a good excuse to begin making yeast starters.
I bottled my first beer (the beer that used the smack pack) last weekend and started a new beer, with some of my washed yeast. I'm a little anxious about the fermentation of that beer (it did not rocket off like so many have experienced), so I'd like to see what comments you all have about my washing and starter procedures.
First, the original beer. I brewed a northern english brown ale. The OG was 1.049 and the FG came in at 1.014. I pitched a smack pack of WYeast 1335 (British Ale II). Fermentation was great! I've never had a beer ferment as quickly as this one. I noticed a 1 in krausen about 7 hours after pitching the yeast. After 24 hours, the krausen reached the very top of my fermenter (5 gallon batch in a 6.5 gallon glass carboy). I fermented for 2 weeks in the primary, no secondary.
When it came time to wash the yeast, I had a 32oz mason jar with pre-boiled water ready to go at room temperature. I poured off half the water (watched a couple youtube videos that used much less water than is advocated in this thread), and poured the remaining half into my carboy. I gave that a swirl and poured almost all of the yeast cake / water mix back into my 32oz mason jar (it didn't all quite fit). I let that sit while I bottled. When I came back, there was about a 1in thick watery layer at the top that was amber in color, and transparent. Below that was an off white layer that took up about half the remaining volume in the jar. Below that there seemed to be a *slightly* darker off-white layer.
I poured off the watery layer and filled up 3 8oz mason jars (that is all I had sterilized, I wasn't sure how much yeast I was expecting to be able to get back). I capped the jars and put 2 of them in the fridge, and left one to be used immediately with a starter for my next beer. Below is a picture of the two in the fridge:
To make the yeast starter, I boiled 2 cups of water with 1/2 cup of DME. I cooled that to room temperature and added the yeast. I put that on a stir plate for about 24 hours. Here is a picture of the starter on the stir plate, maybe an hour before I pitched it (it is a little blurry).
So why am I all anxious about my fermentation? No krausen really ever formed on the fermenting beer. Okay, day 1 there was a little bit, maybe 1/4 inch tall, and it did leave a real thin ring behind. But the top of my beer is very clear right now, with some occasional patches of bubbles. I believe fermentation is taking place (*something* is taking place), I am getting a steady flow of air through the air lock and I can visually see small particles moving up and down in the wort. But this is the same yeast I used with my brown ale - the one that had a 1 in krausen within 7 hours and eventually reached the very top of the fermenter. Now this beer took about 12 hours begin showing any visible signs of fermentation, and barely had any krausen to speak of. The beer currently fermenting is an english pale ale, 1.054 OG.
I'll have a better idea what happened when I take a gravity reading. As a rule, I always let my ales sit for 2 weeks in the primary, rarely use a secondary (maybe for dry hopping), and only take a final reading when I'm bottling the beer. I'm too afraid of contaminating the beer. But while I'm waiting, I thought I'd see what thoughts you might have on my procedure and current beer.
Did I make too concentrated of a yeast slurry by only washing with around 16oz of water?
Does this sounds like ineffective yeast?
Could I have under-pitched? Was my starter a reasonable size?
Do the two jars in my fridge look okay? Would you use them based on the observations of my current batch?
Is everything okay? DWRAHAHB? (I worry about each of my beers the same and they have always turned out great. Not sure if that will ever go away)
I appreciate your thoughts.
Cheers!
I scanned through the beginning and end of this thread, and question/comments about pitching directly on a yeast cake have come up a couple of times. In addition to the answer from pickles, I believe there may be some concern about over-pitching if you rack your next beer directly onto your old yeast cake. I've read posts by enough people who do it and are perfectly satisfied with their beers to believe you can get by just fine with this technique. But I also believe it is worth giving some thought to the style beer you are making and the desired flavor and aroma characteristics. Palmer talks about pitching rates, and in a side box he describes how esters and aromatics are believed to be produced. Although Palmer says it is only a theory, it is believed that esters and aromatics are a product of yeast reproduction. So the more yeast you have to begin with, the less reproduction that is necessary to ferment your beer, and thus the fewer esters and aromatics that will result in your finished beer.
Now, if you just want to scoop out a portion of your yeast cake to immediately reuse, at that point, why not wash it and get rid of some of the trub, even if you are not going to store it? Palmer also mentions that leaving the beer in the fermenter too long after fermentation is complete can lead to soapy off-flavors due to breakdown of the fatty acids in the trub.
jmelbye...
You should check out this post in which I compiled all the helpful posts of this thread -- https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/index143.html#post3963091
We have done this once or twice now, so here is our process....
(1) Boil water in a pot, then let the water cool to room temp.
(2) Sanitize the jars and lids.
(3) Toss the water into the carboy, swirl around, then dump back into the pot.
(4) Put a rag under one side of the pot, so that all trub will sink to the opposite corner.
(5) Wait 30 minutes.
(6) Clean out the carboy, in preparation of freshly boiled wort and pitching yeast that was washed the week before.
(7) After the 30 minutes is up, siphon the top liquid in the pot into the jars... LEAVING NO HEADSPACE!!
(8) Now, keep the jars in the fridge for a couple days to a year, remembering to make a starter on anything older than 1 to 2 weeks.
Very simple.
You should check out this post in which I compiled all the helpful posts of this thread -- https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/index143.html#post3963091
We have done this once or twice now, so here is our process....
(1) Boil water in a pot, then let the water cool to room temp.
(2) Sanitize the jars and lids.
(3) Toss the water into the carboy, swirl around, then dump back into the pot.
(4) Put a rag under one side of the pot, so that all trub will sink to the opposite corner.
(5) Wait 30 minutes.
(6) Clean out the carboy, in preparation of freshly boiled wort and pitching yeast that was washed the week before.
(7) After the 30 minutes is up, siphon the top liquid in the pot into the jars... LEAVING NO HEADSPACE!!
(8) Now, keep the jars in the fridge for a couple days to a year, remembering to make a starter on anything older than 1 to 2 weeks.
Very simple.
cossacks19
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Does dry hopping in the primary negatively effect the yeast for washing purposes?
grndslm - I believe I did roughly follow that outline. I didn't to my research here (I watched a couple YT videos) and wasn't real clear on how much "wash/rinse" water I should be adding. That is probably the largest deviation I made from the method described in this thread.
I also didn't follow #7 - as you can tell from my picture, I probably have almost 1/2 an inch of headspace in my jars. Lesson learned. I think I'll still see if they get going in a starter. If I've learned anything on these forums, it's don't be quick to throw anything away.
I was just shocked at how much less visible this fermentation was compared to the one that I harvested the yeast from. I've never had a beer that had so little krausen that disappeared so quickly. The beer has given me indications of activity though. I could see particles circulating in it the first 3-4 days. The color was much lighter the first 3-4 days, and has darkened up much since then. There is a sizable layer of sediment on the bottom of the carboy and sediment stuck to the sides. It has only been a little over a week since I pitched this one, but I might take a gravity reading in the next day or so if I have time to see what exactly happened in there. That should give me piece of mind or tell me if I should pitch more to salvage the beer.
I also didn't follow #7 - as you can tell from my picture, I probably have almost 1/2 an inch of headspace in my jars. Lesson learned. I think I'll still see if they get going in a starter. If I've learned anything on these forums, it's don't be quick to throw anything away.
I was just shocked at how much less visible this fermentation was compared to the one that I harvested the yeast from. I've never had a beer that had so little krausen that disappeared so quickly. The beer has given me indications of activity though. I could see particles circulating in it the first 3-4 days. The color was much lighter the first 3-4 days, and has darkened up much since then. There is a sizable layer of sediment on the bottom of the carboy and sediment stuck to the sides. It has only been a little over a week since I pitched this one, but I might take a gravity reading in the next day or so if I have time to see what exactly happened in there. That should give me piece of mind or tell me if I should pitch more to salvage the beer.
Couldn't take it any more, took a gravity reading. I couldn't have screwed up washing the yeast too bad. Estimated FG is 1.015 and I'm pretty much right on it. Sample tastes pretty good too! The malt seems to dominate the hops right now (it's a pale ale), but we'll see what time and carbonation do to even that out.
awarner322
Well-Known Member
Alright well I think I followed all the steps here...does this look right for being about two weeks old??
Looks great. Make a starter with that for your next batch and you will be very happy.
Why do we care about headspace in the jars? Surely if the yeast slurry is in cooled boiled water, as soon as the yeast starts to settle out the sterile water froms an oxygen free barrier?(I've read neary all this thread but couldnt find an answer to that!)
Thanks!
L
Thanks!
L
awarner322
Well-Known Member
pabloj13 said:
Do I want to waste some if the liquid on top before making starter or add the entire jar? I'm guessing the latter but just checking
Yeah, I normally pour off as much as I can, just leaving enough to swirl the yeast to resuspend.
The first few times we washed yeast, there didn't have lids. So we just used saran wrap & rubber bands.
After a week, there was dead yeast at the top. After two weeks, there was a bit more dead yeast at the top. This dead yeast comes from oxygenation (oxidation? whatever!), as explained by another member of this forum.
I bought some new mason jars with lids, and we are now able to leave ZERO headspace inside. In those jars, there is very little oxygenation, if any at all, after two weeks. I would have no hesitancy to pitch this yeast without a starter in another week, maybe even 2 (so 3 or 4 weeks total). If they aren't brown, I'd have to reason that they're actually still asleep.
We go the extra mile and boil and cool a pot full of water. Pour off *all* the "old, dirty beer" (ODB), then pour in enough cooled water to rehydrate the yeast (we've been using 2 or 3 times the volume of the sleeping yeasties). Put a cover on it, then shake until in a solution.
You can pour the rest of the cooled water that you didn't use to rehydrate the yeast into your primary fermenter. We just dump it in there, mix it in with the wort as well as possible, and THEN pitch the yeast.
wow, the cheapass in me just a had a nerdgasm thinking of saving money 
. (hey every penny counts). I assume when you use the washed yeast to start a starter you use the same process??? (2 cups of hot water boiled with 1/2 cup of dme and toss the old yeast in with the wort in a bottle?)
also I seem to see a lot of people using much bigger starters (1 liter of liquid wort) vs. the standard 2 cups (1 pint). is that standard or is starting a 1 pint starter for a rewashed yeast too little?
. (hey every penny counts). I assume when you use the washed yeast to start a starter you use the same process??? (2 cups of hot water boiled with 1/2 cup of dme and toss the old yeast in with the wort in a bottle?)also I seem to see a lot of people using much bigger starters (1 liter of liquid wort) vs. the standard 2 cups (1 pint). is that standard or is starting a 1 pint starter for a rewashed yeast too little?
You will actually get rather little yeast growth from a pint starter. Typically to get a lot of new yeast you would use at least 1 L, and sometimes more.
Go to mrmalty.com and/or yeastcalc.com, they will show you what size starter to use for a given batch size and gravity.
Go to mrmalty.com and/or yeastcalc.com, they will show you what size starter to use for a given batch size and gravity.
hmm, so one cup of dme with 1 liter (2 pints almost) is the way to go. would doubling up on the rewashed yeast work as well (I doubt I'll use all 4 or 5 of those bottles up within 6 months )
HollisBT
Well-Known Member
wormraper said:
Yes and no.
One liter + one cup of dme is my go to starter recipe, I measure the amounts, never the gravity.
As for doubling up the yeast, unfortunately you follow the laws of diminishing returns and it will not double the way you expect it to, although it will produce more cell reproduction than just using one jar of washed yeast. Fwiw, I have yet to have a problem with starting a washed yeast, and having it take over a 5 gallon batch with a simple one liter starter.
well, that solves that then. 1 liter of starter it is then
HollisBT
Well-Known Member
Another rule that I try to follow with my starters:
4 days for eating/reproduction
12 hours in the fridge to flocc out
Pull the started yeast out of the fridge the morning of brew day
It is almost a week of prep for a starter, and several people prefer to pitch at high krausen, I have had good results with both, but I prefer to cold crash and decant.
This is a very ymmv suggestion.
4 days for eating/reproduction
12 hours in the fridge to flocc out
Pull the started yeast out of the fridge the morning of brew day
It is almost a week of prep for a starter, and several people prefer to pitch at high krausen, I have had good results with both, but I prefer to cold crash and decant.
This is a very ymmv suggestion.
Has anyone had success washing a blended yeast like WLP080?
Is there any reason to think that the two (or more) yeasts in the blend would separate from each another?
Is there any reason to think that the two (or more) yeasts in the blend would separate from each another?
HollisBT
Well-Known Member
They will repopulate at different rates and each wash will result in different results. Wash them until you stop getting the beers you want, or until you start worrying the results and decide to buy a new vial.
I just washed a blended one, although it was sacc and brett. I plan on using my washed yeast and not washing again.
For pure strains this works excellently, for blends, it has mixed results.
I just washed a blended one, although it was sacc and brett. I plan on using my washed yeast and not washing again.
For pure strains this works excellently, for blends, it has mixed results.
HollisBT said:
4 days? Is this with or without a stir plate? I usually see my starters go through high krausen and finish in 18-24 hours. I may lose out on some yeast growth by not letting it go 36hrs, but I'm guessing it's minuscule compared to the major early growth phase.
HollisBT
Well-Known Member
Jukas said:
I don't use a stir plate, although I would like to at some point.
And I probably let them go much longer than I need to, but I don't see any harm in letting it continue to flocc out before cold crashing. I generally plan my brew days out much more than 4 days in advance, so it isn't too much of a hassle IMO.
user 74748
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How many ml of yeast are in this jar would you say?
Can't tell from a photo. Best way to know would be to get a second jar add water to the height of the yeast cake and measure it.
Even that would only be an approximation.
well thanks for the advice so far guys, one last question. is it recommended to wash the yeast first and use a starter for the next batch using one of the mason jars to create a starter or just pitch right on top of the yeast cake (e.g. doing two batches of the same stuff one right after the other.)
Excuse me if this has already been talked about somewhere in this thread, but it sounds to me like the people who are dragging the yeast concentration slider all the way to the right on the Mr Malty calculator are doing a misstep. In his podcast on repitching yeast, Jamil says that the presets on those to sliders are good estimates on the conditions people will have when they let their yeast settle in the fridge. He explains that the extreme thick slurry value of 4.5 billion/ml at the right side of the slider is what the white labs guys achieve with their vials, and I am assuming they use a centrifuge to get that.
I think 3-3.5 is a good estimate for using cold crashing.
IkeKrizzule
Well-Known Member
How long would you anticipate for the separation in the fridge to take place? I tried this for the first time a couple of days ago, and its started (completed?) to happen, but my jar seems to have about half and half whereas most of the pictures I see posted here the yeast seems like a very small part of what is left in the jar.
I'm thinking this could be because:
A) I'm being impatient, just needs a few more days.
B) I only did one quart jar (I'm new to this so I figure if I'm only supposed to store 1 month then 1 jar is enough), so may be I got more yeast than if I would have split it between 5 jars.
c) I did something wrong
And a second question, if you think the answer might be B then would you still recommend a starter or is that a step I can skip since there's more yeast? I've never done a starter, just used Wyeast activator packs, so if its a step I can avoid and avoid a mistake then I'd like to skip it
Thanks in advance for your help. This thread is great, could be a real money saver as I'm paying about $10 for yeast at the LHBS and trying to start with smaller batches 3-4 gallons until I get the hang of it.
I'm thinking this could be because:
A) I'm being impatient, just needs a few more days.
B) I only did one quart jar (I'm new to this so I figure if I'm only supposed to store 1 month then 1 jar is enough), so may be I got more yeast than if I would have split it between 5 jars.
c) I did something wrong
And a second question, if you think the answer might be B then would you still recommend a starter or is that a step I can skip since there's more yeast? I've never done a starter, just used Wyeast activator packs, so if its a step I can avoid and avoid a mistake then I'd like to skip it
Thanks in advance for your help. This thread is great, could be a real money saver as I'm paying about $10 for yeast at the LHBS and trying to start with smaller batches 3-4 gallons until I get the hang of it.
A rule of thumb is that you'll have twice the amount of yeast you need after primary fermentation. This is one benefit to yeast washing is that you not only get excess yeast out for future use, but you also have the optimum amount of yeast for optimum beer.
If you really waited 30 minutes OUTSIDE the fridge before siphoning/pouring the liquid into the quart-sized jar. Then you should be good.... and it should mostly be all yeast and very little trub.
If I were you, I might rehydrate the yeast (by boiling & cooling water, then decanting the "beer" and mix in the new, sterilized water)... and separate into two jars.
We just started, but I got pint sized jars. Think that was a mixtake. I think two quart-sized jars will likely be what we use from now on.
How much water did you use to wash your yeast, tho??? Not even a quart of water??
