Yeast starters, pitch rates, confusion

[chipwitch]

Okay, so this is about my tenth attempt at making ale. I can't say any so far have been overly pleasant to drink. Some have been okay. So, my next batch I decided to pay more attention to yeast pitch rates. Perusing the net on the topic, I'm only more confused. There seems to be a lot of contradiction and information that frankly just sounds like a bunch of voodoo mumbo jumbo. Maybe I'm just not getting it and would appreciate anyone being able to enlighten me.

My next brew, I haven't decided on a specific recipe, but will likely be a strong dark Belgian. SG somewhere around 1.065. I have on hand a 35ml WL550 100 billion cells, mfg 12/22/15.

Okay, so first up... White Labs says that this package of yeast is sufficient for direct pitching to 5 gallons 1.070 beer. Mr malty and others say I need 236 billion cells. So, why the disparity, is my first question? I mean, that's huge.

My next big question is this, if starters are so important, wouldn't the amount of sugar (malt) in the wort be kind of important? I mean, the two or three pitch rate calculators I've tried indicate the total number of cells after starter fermentation is the same number irrespective of the amount of malt! That just annihilates everything I thought I knew about yeast growth. While the number of cells yielded by a starter are proportional to the starter volume, specific gravity has zero impact!? Really? Therefore, these calculators would suggest that if I inoculate 2 liters of water with my yeast, I'll double my colony's size. Call me a skeptic...

Top it all off with the whole argument of whether to pitch at high krausen or after complete fermentation and cold crashing and I hope you can see the confusion. I'm inclined to lean toward the latter, personally. But, if anyone can shed some light on the first two questions, I'd be very grateful. Obviously, I've got a huge blind spot.

 

[McKnuckle]

Personally, I think that if you have not yet brewed a good ale in 10 tries, you shouldn't be going for a moderately high gravity Belgian. You really should make it simple for yourself: Brew a SMaSH (Single Malt & Single Hop). Get the process down first. Try 2-row with Cascade and brew a simple APA with a 1.050 OG.

Ignoring the yeast calculators for the moment, here are some practical rules of thumb: The White Labs and Wyeast packages are okay to pitch "as is" into 2-3 gallons of beer. Pitch two into 5 gallons, or make a starter. If you raise the OG significantly, make a starter anyway, even with 3 gallons.

A package of dry yeast, such as Safale US-05 (perfect for your APA), can be hydrated and pitched into 5 gallons. For high gravity, pitch two packages. No starters.

If you make a starter, it doesn't really matter when you pitch - I and many others prefer to finish ferm and crash it, in order to decant the yucky starter beer rather than put it into precious wort. The starter is meant to increase the yeast population, so by the time it's at high krausen, it's long since finished with that phase. Therefore that time works, too - but you get the yucky beer. Hence the preference to crash first.

What temps are you fermenting at that has caused your 10 ales to not taste good? It's perhaps the most important part of brewing successfully to manage temps.

 

[Transamguy77]

What has not been good about your last few beers? Was it an off flavor? Not enough flavor? Too bitter? Not trying to disregard your yeast question but maybe the problem is not your yeast.

I have many times in my early Homebrew days only used 1 pack of liquid yeast and had the beers turn out great, and it great that you want to stay on top of your yeast but that might not be the problem IMHO.

As far as starters go I make a 2 liter starter and put on a stir plate till finished then cold crash and decant then pitch onto wort.

 

[emcfarden]

My next big question is this, if starters are so important, wouldn't the amount of sugar (malt) in the wort be kind of important? I mean, the two or three pitch rate calculators I've tried indicate the total number of cells after starter fermentation is the same number irrespective of the amount of malt! That just annihilates everything I thought I knew about yeast growth. While the number of cells yielded by a starter are proportional to the starter volume, specific gravity has zero impact!? Really? Therefore, these calculators would suggest that if I inoculate 2 liters of water with my yeast, I'll double my colony's size. Call me a skeptic...

Have you tried the calculator on Brewers Friend?

http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

I use this one and have had good results thus far. As far as the other calculators you've used I don't know, but this one shows that increasing either the OG or volume of the starter wort will almost proportionally (i'm sure there's more than one variable involved) increase your ending cell count.

It also has some pretty good explanations for how the calculator works in the sections below it.

 

[eadavis80]

I bring 2 cups of water and a pinch of yeast nutrient to a boil, remove from burner, mix in 1/2 cup of DME, return to burner after bringing burner down to 6-7 on my stove. Let starter boil off for 15 minutes, chill starter wort and add my yeast packet. I do this for all 5 gallon batches at 1.060 or less. If it's north of 1.060, I'll double the starter size. That's worked for me. I try to decant if I plan ahead, but have done both and have not noticed a difference in all honesty. I think fermentation temperature makes a way bigger difference in the beer than whether or not the starter was decanted. NB told me just to try to have the starter wort be not higher than 5% (I THINK it was...) of the total volume of beer made.

 

[RM-MN]

I bring 2 cups of water and a pinch of yeast nutrient to a boil, remove from burner, mix in 1/2 cup of DME, return to burner after bringing burner down to 6-7 on my stove. Let starter boil off for 15 minutes, chill starter wort and add my yeast packet. I do this for all 5 gallon batches at 1.060 or less. If it's north of 1.060, I'll double the starter size. That's worked for me. I try to decant if I plan ahead, but have done both and have not noticed a difference in all honesty. I think fermentation temperature makes a way bigger difference in the beer than whether or not the starter was decanted. NB told me just to try to have the starter wort be not higher than 5% (I THINK it was...) of the total volume of beer made.

Can you explain why you feel the need to boil the starter for 15 minutes? Are you trying to concentrate the wort? If so, why not just add a little more malt extract? Sanitation? Boiling wort kills everything except botuliin spores and does so in seconds. Why boil it any more? You have to raise the temperature to about 230F to kill botulin spores and while there is water in there you can't get above 212.

To chipwitch:

Read through this experiment. With the extreme range of pitching rates, it should have been quickly obvious to every sampler which was the right pitch. http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/

Transamguy is probably right, it isn't your yeast or your pitch rate if you are always getting poor tasting beer. Temperature control during fermentation made a huge difference in the flavors of my beers, followed by time in the bottle for the beer to mature.

 

[eadavis80]

I followed these directions and have had good results from doing this: http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/YeastStarter.pdf

 

[chipwitch]

Have you tried the calculator on Brewers Friend?

http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

I use this one and have had good results thus far. As far as the other calculators you've used I don't know, but this one shows that increasing either the OG or volume of the starter wort will almost proportionally (i'm sure there's more than one variable involved) increase your ending cell count.

It also has some pretty good explanations for how the calculator works in the sections below it.

I could have sworn I tried brewers friend, but I must have been mistaken. Yes, theirs DOES take gravity into account. MrMalty, unless I just don't see it, doesn't have a place to indicate starter gravity.

 

[chipwitch]

Read through this experiment. With the extreme range of pitching rates, it should have been quickly obvious to every sampler which was the right pitch. http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/

Transamguy is probably right, it isn't your yeast or your pitch rate if you are always getting poor tasting beer. Temperature control during fermentation made a huge difference in the flavors of my beers, followed by time in the bottle for the beer to mature.

Thanks for the link. Nice little anecdote. I didn't say I always get "poor tasting beer." I said, "none have been overly pleasant." Budweiser isn't overly pleasant either... :shrug:

My first 4 brews are barely drinkable, to me. But the rest turned out okay; preferable to Bud. I've discussed those in other threads and got plenty of helpful advice. The OP was to get a better understanding of pitch rates and starters. Just seems like there's a lot of widely varied opinions on the topic, often contradictory. Like, White Labs saying 100 billion cells being sufficient for 5 gallons while the common thinking seems to dispute that in favor of more than twice that many cells.

Everyone, I'm not saying that the cause of my less than stellar beers are a result of my yeast starters. But since so many people emphasize the importance of pitch rates, it seemed reasonable that I should be more attentive to that aspect.

 

[WrQth]

I could have sworn I tried brewers friend, but I must have been mistaken. Yes, theirs DOES take gravity into account. MrMalty, unless I just don't see it, doesn't have a place to indicate starter gravity.

I believe MrMalty assumes your starter OG would be 1.036 which is 1gr DME for each 10mL of liquid.

Pick up a copy of Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation (Brewing Elements), the creator of MrMalty [Jamil] wrote it with Chris White who started WhiteLabs.

 

[emcfarden]

Everyone, I'm not saying that the cause of my less than stellar beers are a result of my yeast starters. But since so many people emphasize the importance of pitch rates, it seemed reasonable that I should be more attentive to that aspect.

It's tough to be certain what it is exactly, and it may even be varying from batch to batch. IMO the best thing to do (and its what I did) is to try and give the yeast the best environment to do their work in. This would include not only making a starter (one reason its highly recommended is because its a relatively easy process), but also keeping ferm temps in range, getting good wort aeration, and keeping everything sanitary. The good thing is you can do these things for relatively cheap.

 

[McKnuckle]

What has not been good about your last few beers? Was it an off flavor? Not enough flavor? Too bitter? Not trying to disregard your yeast question but maybe the problem is not your yeast.

OP, I don't believe you've answered this gentleman's question. Not overly pleasant, barely drinkable... them's fighting words. I would really want to get to the heart of that situation quickly.

Unless you grossly mismanage the yeast and fermentation temps, and you use decent water, you will probably brew something that tastes good. Exact pitch rates as provided by calculators are reassuring, but not an absolute by any means.

Take a simple recipe, and brew 2.5-3 gallons worth. Pitch a whole packet of neutral dry ale yeast such as Safale US-05. Keep the ambient temp between 60-65F and ferment for two weeks. Drop the yeast, rack cleanly off the trub, and... the beer should be drinkable and decent.

Unless your water is bad... and don't neglect that possibility/can of worms. But I just don't think the yeast pitch rate is a serious problem unless it's totally mismanaged.

 

[B29]

I'm no expert, but when I started brewing some 25 years ago we had dried yeast packs or a jar scooped from a commercial brewery fermentation vessel and not much else. The jar always worked better(primarily speed) because of the larger volume. For me, fermentation temp has the most impact on the quality of my brews. Second factor is the water--I have a well with a water conditioner. Sometimes I use my water, other times I get jugs from a known and tested source. Try making a starter. It's easy, but don't sweat if you don't have time. Control your fermentation temps. If you are still not happy, look closely at your water and consider having it tested.

 

[McKnuckle]

^bingo. I've only been brewing 3 years as opposed to 25, but this matches my observations exactly.