Yeast starters are mind boggling. Please help a dude!

[kukubau]

I'm posting here as I haven't received any answer in the yeast subgroup.

How the heck one step ups a yeast starter?? I could find only partial info on how to do it for what I need, to ferment 15 gallons of cider. I'll copy/ paste the other post here. Thanks gents!

"I'd like to start creating my own yeast database and make yeast cultures on plates and slants, so I could save some $ and for the fun of it.

I'd like to make a yeast starter enough for 15 gallons cider starting from a pack/vial of White Labs W775 yeast. On the pack it says that for that amount I'd need three packs.

I was looking at http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-p...ter-calculator and my favourite www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php that calculates how many starters I need, in my case (15 gallons), I'd need 4 starters, the last 2 being 2 L starters.

As I have only a 2 L Erlenmeyer flask available, is it possible to build a 1 L starter, cold crash it, DECANT and then use the initial yeast from the flask to create a 2nd 2L starter, a 3rd 2L starter by adding Apple juice and/or DME on top of it and so forth??? Will it reach the required number of yeast cells just using the same flask, or do I need a larger flask or separate jars to wash the yeast?

I'm lost.

When starting with a small yeast colony taken from a plate, how small should be the initial starter? 100 ml, more? I've built my own stir plate.

Thank you
K

 

[porterpounder]

Yes, fermenting the initial starter, decanting and adding more must to the flask is a way to step up a starter. It can be done multiple times. If you're preparing for cider, use apple juice and some yeast nutrient, not DME or table sugar. You may want to cut the juice down 30% or so depending on it's OG to keep the starter must around 1.035.

As for stepping up from a plate, get yourself a copy of Yeast by Mr. Malty and Chris White. Or do an internet search on it. There are hundreds of resources out there to help you out with just a little searching.

 

[kh54s10]

I start from 5 ml frozen yeast samples. I make a 250 ml starter of about 1.020 - 1.025 starter wort. When this one is done I add another 500 ml wort to it. I then decant this and consider it a package of commercial yeast. I then use this site to calculate the rest of the steps: http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

I don't know what medium is best for starters for cider. Maybe apple juice as suggested by porterpounder.

 

[ericbw]

Wouldn't he need to eventually move to a bigger flask? Otherwise, the yeast wouldn't produce as much to ferment it? Like if you added 1 unit of yeast to a 1-litre flask, then decant and add fresh juice, it will multiply and ferment. But assume that at some point, it's doubled or tripled, or more. Then will it still multiply as much?

 

[TheMadKing]

Wouldn't he need to eventually move to a bigger flask? Otherwise, the yeast wouldn't produce as much to ferment it? Like if you added 1 unit of yeast to a 1-litre flask, then decant and add fresh juice, it will multiply and ferment. But assume that at some point, it's doubled or tripled, or more. Then will it still multiply as much?

No it won't, you are thinking correctly. You need to increase the volume of starter wort at each step-up in order to maintain the same multiplication factor. You will still gain yeast by pitching the slurry from a 1L starter into a 1L starter, but it might only be a 20% increase compared to a 100% increase after the first step.

In general a 1L starter won't result in much multiplication for a smack pack, and you should do at least a 2L minimum. The only time I use a step starter is when I am making a very large beer or a lager, and I'll usually do a 2L starter, back into a 2L starter and call it good.

 

[bacgabe]

No it won't, you are thinking correctly. You need to increase the volume of starter wort at each step-up in order to maintain the same multiplication factor. You will still gain yeast by pitching the slurry from a 1L starter into a 1L starter, but it might only be a 20% increase compared to a 100% increase after the first step.

I agree with this. In fact, what I have taken to doing, with limited flask space available, is to set aside most of the slurry from the first step, then create a new starter with the little bit of slurry remaining.

In other words, make a 2L starter from your smack-pack to get optimal growth. Chill and decant. Then pour off most of the slurry into a small sanitized container, reserving just a few (maybe 10mL) of slurry in the flask. Then use the reserved slurry to make another 2L starter. This gets you maximum growth from the second starter, rather than just making beer/cider. Each step (2L starter) ought to get you around 300B cells on a stirplate.

If you are starting from a single colony from a slant or plate, you should start with only 10-20mL or wort or so. You can then build that up by a factor of 5-10x. E.g., you could go from 20 mL wort to 200mL, then to 2L. Personally I prefer freezing yeast slurry where the initial cell count is around 20B cells, that way I can pitch directly into a 2L starter. The following article shows you how easy it is...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/maintaining-healthy-yeast-bank-long-term.html

 

[kukubau]

Ty all for the answers.
One more thing. I am planning on fermenting 60 L (15 gallons) of cider using White Labs WLP775 yeast. Can I add the 3 vials of yeast I have in the 2L flask adding them all at once? Brewersfriend's starter calculator says I will need 3 step ups.

 

[kukubau]

Anyone?

 

[IslandLizard]

Ty all for the answers.
One more thing. I am planning on fermenting 60 L (15 gallons) of cider using White Labs WLP775 yeast. Can I add the 3 vials of yeast I have in the 2L flask adding them all at once? Brewersfriend's starter calculator says I will need 3 step ups.

You won't get as much growth when adding 3 vials to a 2 liter flask as if you were to use one vial. Put the (estimated) numbers in Brewunited's calculator and you'll see.

Now if the vials are old and thus the current cell count in each is low, pitching 3 vials will get the initial count higher. But you'll still need to step up at least once more, in a larger vessel or divided over 2 or 3 2-liter flasks.

 

[IslandLizard]

I prefer to have multiple 2 liter flasks, as those will still fit easily in my fridge for cold crashing. The 4 or 5 liter flasks are too large and unwieldy for that, unless I pour the yeast into smaller containers for cold crashing. The only drawback is you would need multiple stir plates or allot more time if you do them in succession.

I haven't done this, but you could possibly use a 3 gallon glass carboy for yeast propagation, and crash in your fermentation fridge. You do need a stir plate strong enough to spin the 2" stir bar, and prevent it from being thrown because of the thick convex bottom.

Those gallon glass jugs can make good yeast propagators too. Again, multiple (strong) stir plates needed, or time.

 

[TooDogly]

Doesn't White Labs recommend one vial per 5 gal? If you have three vials do you even need a starter?

 

[kukubau]

The yeast I've just bought. I don't have a 3 gallon carboy, but I do have a stir plate. My best chance is to buy another Erlenmeyer flask or/and decant. What about just cold crashing and decant? Is it so important to double the wort?

 

[kukubau]

Doesn't White Labs recommend one vial per 5 gal? If you have three vials do you even need a starter?

True.
I'm doing a starter for educational purposes as I want to cultivate the yeast and freeze it and I'd like to know how to multiply it for large volumes of cider/wort. Maybe someday I will not have enough yeast available. I've bought now 3 just to be on the safe side.

 

[TooDogly]

True.
I'm doing a starter for educational purposes as I want to cultivate the yeast and freeze it and I'd like to know how to multiply it for large volumes of cider/wort. Maybe someday I will not have enough yeast available. I've bought now 3 just to be on the safe side.

I haven't used White Labs in a while but I recall one vial having around 100 billion cells. If you make a 2L starter with one vial you can probably expect to end up with about 200 billion. But if you are trying to put all three vials in one starter then you'd need at the very least 6L of starter wort to get the same effect. If you want to play around with starters then maybe do one vial in your 2L and then try the method bacgabe described where you decant and then store most of the slurry in a sanitized jar, then use the remainder to make a new starter. You can then pitch both the new starter and the jar of yeast and one of the unused vials and have one vial left over for future experiments.

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

Make your starter with one vial of yeast and put the other two in the fridge for later. Don't waste all 3 vials if you're gonna grow yeast anyway....

 

[IslandLizard]

The yeast I've just bought. I don't have a 3 gallon carboy, but I do have a stir plate. My best chance is to buy another Erlenmeyer flask or/and decant. What about just cold crashing and decant? Is it so important to double the wort?

Potential cell growth is dependent on cell density (cells per ml).

Again, play around with your numbers in that yeast calculator and see what it does. If you make a fresh 2 liter starter from one vial, crash and decant it, and you add another 2 liters of starter wort to that slurry, there won't be much room for extra cell growth (numbers, not size). If you split is into 2 halfs, and add 2 liters to each you'll at least double your yeast in each.

 

[kukubau]

Hi all
Thank you for all your great help and Merry Christmas!

I've looked at http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php and at others like http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator and nowhere is recommended to cold freeze/decant before pitching and just add the yeast slurry.

Should I, should I not?

 

[flars]

Hi all
Thank you for all your great help and Merry Christmas!

I've looked at http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php and at others like http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator and nowhere is recommended to cold freeze/decant before pitching and just add the yeast slurry, au contraire.

Should I, should I not?

You can pitch all the spent wort and yeast from your starter but, especially when a stir plate has been used, the wort will be highly oxidized. The off flavor from this oxidized wort may be noticeable in some of the lighter beers if the volume of wort is large enough. The possible off flavors is the main reason for cold crashing the starter in a refrigerator to drop the yeast out and decant the spent wort. Cold crashing also drops the yeast out faster than leaving the starter at room temperature.

 

[sky4meplease]

Get yourself a copy of Yeast. Lots of good information there.
To answer your question I would cold crash and decant.
If your doing 5 gallon batches then 2 liters of low ABV non hopped abused beer added to your fermentor is 10% of the total volume.
In comparison pour yourself a pint of IPA, precious Porter or Stout then dump a quarter cup of Bud Lite that has been sitting on the counter for a couple days into it. Yum

 

[kukubau]

I've just bought a 5 L jar in which I'll be stepping up my yeast starters from now on. For my 60 L (15 US gallons) cider batch, I'd like to build a 3,5 L large starter, but I'm not totally convinced that using just DME is the right solution. Should I just use plain apple juice, apple juice with added DME or a 50%-50% ratio? I will decant nevertheless and just pitch the beasties.