Yeast Starter Troubleshooting

[BeavStu]

I need some expert advice on my first attempt at making a yeast starter.

I am in the midst of starting my second batch of home brew. My first home brew was a brown ale. It turned out well, in my amateur opinion. For my second batch, I intend to brew a Pliny the Elder clone recipe. I was advised at the home brew shop to make a yeast starter for this recipe, so I did. Unfortunatley it did not go as smoothly as I thought it would.

I was advised to do mix 100 grams of malt extract with 1 liter of water and proceed much the same as when making the wort for a normal batch of beer. Then cool and pitch the yeast. I was also advised that I could boil and do everything in my 1 liter erlenmeyer flask that I purchased solely for this task. I had several issues. First issue was that after I boiled the water, I tried to pour the extract in the flask and it kept clogging up the mouth of the flask because of the steam/moisture. Therefore I abandoned that method and started again. This time I mixed the extract and water before boiling. This worked better but over half of the mixture ended up boiling/spilling out of the flask. Leaving me with only about 400 ml of wort. I proceeded to cool down the wort and add the yeast. This is where my next problem occurred. My yeast pack had already swelled, which mislead me to thinking it had already been smacked. I was wrong, as I soon found out when I cut it open and pour into the wort. I closed the top as best as I could, smacked the pack then poured the rest in. I did my best to keep everything clean as I could throughout this whole process.

Now I am paranoid that 1) either my yeast started got infected and will ruin my beer; or 2) my yeast starter is dead and won't work. I don't want to waste the ingredients/money I spent on the beer so therefore here I am asking what I should do. In your expert opinion should I start again? Or do you think I'll be alright? And if you advice starting again what do you advise I do differently?

I tried to attach a picture of the starter but my computer is being difficult. Sorry.

Thanks in advance!

Stuart

 

[d3track]

Deep breathes, it's ok. You can boil 600ml of wort in a pan, cool, and add to your flask.

In the future, you can always boil in a saucepan or small pot to avoid boil over mess, or use fermcapS.

Don't worry about smacking or not smacking the pack when doing starters, you can always just cut the nutrient pack open and pour in.

 

[kh54s10]

I suggest boiling the extract in a pot, cooling, then putting it in the sanitized flask. You can boil in the flask but as you found out it is not as easy as it sounds.

I also suggest a bigger flask. I use a 2 liter, and until I did a starter for a lager it was big enough. I am now in the market for a 5L.

The inner pack in a Wyeast pouch is nutrient. Often when I am doing starters I will not even try to smack it. I just add the yeast to the flask then fish out the inner pouch and add it to the flask.

Your 1 liter starter was small in the first place. Did you use a calculator to determine the size needed? Mrmalty.com or Brewers Friend have calculators and information of starters. I would get another pack and pitch it.

Your yeast is probably not infected or dead. Again I would add more yeast. I would not make a new starter as it would take too long. You want the right cell count as soon as possible.

To add a picture you need to upload to a service like Photobucket then copy it's URL from there.

OOPS. I see the yeast is not pitched in the beer yet. All my info is good.

But in the case of the small starter you have now, I would have you look at this site: http://www.yeastcalculator.com/, plug in numbers for what you have now then calculate a second step.

 

[Hopper5000]

Agreed with the others on there, also there are calculators which will give you more accurate starter volumes and amounts needed. One is yeastcalculator.com.

Also a note that the smack pack part of the wyeast pack is just a nutrient blend for the yeast. It's helpful to smack it but it's not necessary. In the future if you forget I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[BeavStu]

Good to know, thank you. I appreciate the insight.

I did not use a calculator. I simply went off the recommendation of the owner of the brew shop where I bought the supplies.

Follow up question. Is there any type of activity that you should be able to observe in a yeast starter to know if its doing alright?

Thanks again!

 

[christyle]

Plenty of people direct pitch a yeast into a 5G batch with no issues per se, so I'm not sure he NEEDS an additional yeast pack. The point of a starter is to grow the cell count of a yeast, but it also is to get the yeast all energized and ready to chew through some beer. It's a small starter, but not that big of a deal that warrants another $7-10 pack of yeast.

Are you using a stirplate? shaking/stirring? Just sitting there? It should form a krausen, sometimes big, sometimes not. You can usually see bubbles coming through on a stirplate, and my general gauge is the color of the starter. Is it milkier (more yeast in suspension)? If you turn it off and let it sit, does a large cake of yeast settle out?

 

[Hopper5000]

Good to know, thank you. I appreciate the insight.

I did not use a calculator. I simply went off the recommendation of the owner of the brew shop where I bought the supplies.

Follow up question. Is there any type of activity that you should be able to observe in a yeast starter to know if its doing alright?

Thanks again!

Yes I understood that you didn't use a calculator I was merely recommending a method for the future. I would agree that you don't need to go and get another yeast pack. You can just let it ride and you will probably be fine.

For the most part you will see signs that the yeast is fermenting, however, depending in the yeast strain there might not really be any activity. Just leave it for 24 to 72 hours and you should be fine

 

[christyle]

You also don't want to leave it too long, or the yeast can go to sleep or just get lazy. I'm not sure how long that is, but with a smaller starter like this I'd shoot low on the days and not go more than 1-2 days before pitching

 

[bragona71]

You also don't want to leave it too long, or the yeast can go to sleep or just get lazy. I'm not sure how long that is, but with a smaller starter like this I'd shoot low on the days and not go more than 1-2 days before pitching

+1 but you can put it in fridge a couple days(if needed) and decant the top on brew day, let warm up and pitch

 

[christyle]

+1 but you can put it in fridge a couple days(if needed) and decant the top on brew day, let warm up and pitch

I allllmost said that but wasn't sure if it worked well haha. Just did that with my Brett Trois starter

 

[olotti]

Ditch the 1l flask I made the same mistake and bought a 2L flask then I had to make a large starter for a ris and ended up buying a 1 gal jug and I use that for every starter I make now as it has the capacity to do up to 3-3.5L starters without foaming over although depending on the yeast it comes close.

 

[kh54s10]

I disagree with some of the responses. If your Pliny the Elder is a 1.070 you should be pitching almost 3 packages of yeast or a 2.25 liter starter with intermittent shaking.

Will what you pitched ferment the beer? - yes. Will it be the best it can be? NO.

With a fairly big beer like this I would rather get more yeast than expend the $$ on the ingredients and not give it the best by spending a little more on yeast.

You can either pitch another pack or two or step up the starter you already have.

 

[christyle]

I disagree with some of the responses. If your Pliny the Elder is a 1.070 you should be pitching almost 3 packages of yeast or a 2.25 liter starter with intermittent shaking.

Will what you pitched ferment the beer? - yes. Will it be the best it can be? NO.

If he wants the best it can be, he should probably be doing a lot of other things as well...the point of this was to say what he's done will be ok, but there are better ways to do it, most certainly. Also, any off flavors from underpitching this yeast would be minimal I would guess, and also completely lost in the hop flavor.

I get a slightly smaller starter and yeast vials needed for this beer than yours, which one are you using? I punched it into Mr Malty, my usual go-to.

 

[kh54s10]

If he wants the best it can be, he should probably be doing a lot of other things as well...the point of this was to say what he's done will be ok, but there are better ways to do it, most certainly. Also, any off flavors from underpitching this yeast would be minimal I would guess, and also completely lost in the hop flavor.

I get a slightly smaller starter and yeast vials needed for this beer than yours, which one are you using? I punched it into Mr Malty, my usual go-to.

I did it quick with Mr Malty. I assumed 1.070 and put in a date of a couple weeks ago.


The OP stated that he ended up with a starter of only 400ml. That is very small for the beer.

 

[kombat]

Don't worry about smacking or not smacking the pack when doing starters, you can always just cut the nutrient pack open and pour in.

Or, better yet, leave it out altogether.

The purpose of the nutrient pack is to verify viability of the yeast inside the pack. It "wakes them up" by feeding them nutrients.

However, there's no point in adding the nutrient pack once you've already opened the pack and are pitching the yeast into wort. The wort itself already contains all the nutrients the yeast need. Mucking around with the nutrient pack at that time is pointless and risks contaminating the yeast for absolutely no benefit.

 

[kombat]

You also don't want to leave it too long, or the yeast can go to sleep or just get lazy. I'm not sure how long that is, but with a smaller starter like this I'd shoot low on the days and not go more than 1-2 days before pitching

No offense, but this is terrible advice.

Think about it. You brew 5 gallons of beer. The first few days, the yeast go crazy and ferment it. After a week or so, it starts to slow down. A week later, it looks completely dormant. You leave it another week to make sure they've finished cleaning up. Total time: 3 weeks, at room temperature.

You rack the beer to a keg/bottling bucket/whatever, and collect the yeast in 4 sanitized mason jars. If you were to immediately pitch one of those jars into another 5 gallon batch of beer, I guarantee it will take off like a rocket. And that's after the yeast have been sitting at room temperature for 3 weeks. Why would they "get lazy" after just 2 days in a smaller version of the same thing (starter wort/beer)? It doesn't make any sense.

The yeast will settle out, but that's what you want them to do. In fact, you should put the starter in the fridge for a couple of days to encourage them to drop out. That's so that you can decant off the spent starter wort/beer while leaving behind the most possible yeast cells to be pitched into the main batch.

To the OP: As others have mentioned, don't make your starter inside the flask. Make it in a pot, then cool it and transfer into a (sanitized) flask using a (sanitized) funnel. You don't even have to boil the starter, technically. Just heat it to 180° F for 5-10 minutes. Or even better, get a pressure canner and can a bunch of starter wort ahead of time, so when it comes time to make a starter, you just pop the lids on a couple jars of starter wort from your cupboard, pour them into the (sanitized) flask, and pitch your yeast. Job done.

 

[christyle]

No offense, but this is terrible advice.

Think about it. You brew 5 gallons of beer. The first few days, the yeast go crazy and ferment it. After a week or so, it starts to slow down. A week later, it looks completely dormant. You leave it another week to make sure they've finished cleaning up. Total time: 3 weeks, at room temperature.

You rack the beer to a keg/bottling bucket/whatever, and collect the yeast in 4 sanitized mason jars. If you were to immediately pitch one of those jars into another 5 gallon batch of beer, I guarantee it will take off like a rocket. And that's after the yeast have been sitting at room temperature for 3 weeks. Why would they "get lazy" after just 2 days in a smaller version of the same thing (starter wort/beer)? It doesn't make any sense.

The yeast will settle out, but that's what you want them to do. In fact, you should put the starter in the fridge for a couple of days to encourage them to drop out. That's so that you can decant off the spent starter wort/beer while leaving behind the most possible yeast cells to be pitched into the main batch.

To the OP: As others have mentioned, don't make your starter inside the flask. Make it in a pot, then cool it and transfer into a (sanitized) flask using a (sanitized) funnel. You don't even have to boil the starter, technically. Just heat it to 180° F for 5-10 minutes. Or even better, get a pressure canner and can a bunch of starter wort ahead of time, so when it comes time to make a starter, you just pop the lids on a couple jars of starter wort from your cupboard, pour them into the (sanitized) flask, and pitch your yeast. Job done.

No real offense taken, but...terrible advice would be to say you should make a yeast starter using cat pee, whereas pitching before you have reached full flocculation? Maybe just "poor advice", but to each his own.

That seemed to be what I'd gathered from my readings on the forums and talking with LHBS employees and deducted. In such a small starter, it won't take long to chew up all the sugars, at which point, I thought it would be prudent to pitch before they go dormant. I did a little quick searching have found that I was a little mistaken. My apologies, looks like I will be changing the way I do my starters now, as it makes more sense than what I had said. I was always too afraid to make a starter too early, for fear of missing prime yeast activity time, but that would seem to be a minor downside at the benefit of a higher cell count, albeit dormant.

 

[kombat]

No real offense taken, but...terrible advice would be to say you should make a yeast starter using cat pee, whereas pitching before you have reached full flocculation? Maybe just "poor advice", but to each his own.

That's fair, I apologize. I just wanted to make it clear that the advice, while presented factually, was actually incorrect. That said, I could have been more diplomatic about it. Cheers.

 

[christyle]

That's fair, I apologize. I just wanted to make it clear that the advice, while presented factually, was actually incorrect. That said, I could have been more diplomatic about it. Cheers.

Understood, and agreed, I was mistaken.

 

[BeavStu]

Thanks for all the input this is really helping.

How would you recommend I step up the starter to make it a more suitable starter for this beer?

I've just been letting it sit. I was told by the LHBS employee that prepping it approx. 1 week in advance was best. It's been about 4 days now. It's just been sitting in a cupboard. No stir plate etc. No krausen formed that I am aware of. Though yesterday was the first time I looked at it. It looks like beer with a layer of sediment on the bottom.

Thanks again!

 

[eadavis80]

Put the starter in the fridge overnight and the yeast you have in there will fall and compact to the bottom. Then, the next morning, carefully pour off that liquid and you'll have a nice layer of compacted yeast on the bottom of your flask. Do another 1L starter in the sauce pan, boil it, cool it and then add that new cooled wort to your flask and shake that up whenver you can over the next few days. You'll double your yeast.

 

[christyle]

The more you rouse the yeast (shaking every few hours, or as often as possible), the quicker it will work. As others said, put it in the fridge for a day to cause all the yeast to drop out, then carefully pour out as much of the fermented wort as you can, without rousing the yeast. this wont be much for you. Boil up another batch of starter in a saucepan, preferably around 1.5-2L, cool it and aerate if possible, then pitch that slurry you have into it. You would need a bigger vessel to hold this obviously, and if you're not putting it on a stirplate, a large, well cleaned and sanitized jar or even growler is a common one. If you do not have anything else to put this in, make another 750ml or so of wort to pour onto your yeast cake, and keep swirling it often for the next few days. John Palmer suggests 1/2 cup extract per pint of water for a 1.040 starter.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

 

[m00ps]

Thanks for all the input this is really helping.

How would you recommend I step up the starter to make it a more suitable starter for this beer?

I've just been letting it sit. I was told by the LHBS employee that prepping it approx. 1 week in advance was best. It's been about 4 days now. It's just been sitting in a cupboard. No stir plate etc. No krausen formed that I am aware of. Though yesterday was the first time I looked at it. It looks like beer with a layer of sediment on the bottom.

Thanks again!

I wouldnt listen to anyone at your LHBS anymore, so far they are 0 for 3 on giving you good information. I see most people making the yeast starter 1-2 days before pitching, though some will just do overnight. All just depends. For me, 3 days is good because I like to decant and save some of the yeast. For this, I need a good layer at the bottom and the yeast cant be extremely active or the mason jar I store it in pops its lid

 

[m00ps]

Thanks for all the input this is really helping.

How would you recommend I step up the starter to make it a more suitable starter for this beer?

I've just been letting it sit. I was told by the LHBS employee that prepping it approx. 1 week in advance was best. It's been about 4 days now. It's just been sitting in a cupboard. No stir plate etc. No krausen formed that I am aware of. Though yesterday was the first time I looked at it. It looks like beer with a layer of sediment on the bottom.

Thanks again!

I wouldnt listen to anyone at your LHBS anymore, so far they are 0 for 2 on giving you good information. I see most people making the yeast starter 1-2 days before pitching, though some will just do overnight. All just depends. For me, 3 days is good because I like to decant and save some of the yeast. For this, I need a good layer at the bottom and the yeast cant be extremely active or the mason jar I store it in pops its lid. Either way, youll want to be constantly shaking the thing to get it going

 

[BeavStu]

Good to know. I put my yeast starter in the fridge last night, and plan to kick start this morning, and hopefully brew this weekend. I appreciate all the input.

You are absolutely right, so far my LHBS is 0/2 on advice. Unfortunately, I have to drive 45 min-1 hr to get there.

 

[BeavStu]

Brewed the beer today! Used the advice that you all gave regarding how to boost my yeast starter. It was about a 1/2 liter starter. Hopefully the beer turns out good! Thanks again!

 

[kh54s10]

Brewed the beer today! Used the advice that you all gave regarding how to boost my yeast starter. It was about a 1/2 liter starter. Hopefully the beer turns out good! Thanks again!

Most of the advice, including my own, is to get the best beer you can by pitching the proper amount of yeast.

Way back they had a beer stick. They would stir their concoction with the stick and it would ferment. There must have only been a small amount of yeast on the stick.

A pack or vial will make a pretty good beer in most cases. The proper amount gives the best chance to make it the best it can be. There are a lot of other areas to pay attention to that will make better beer.

You asked about the signs of a starter working. This is also variable. I use a stir plate and sometime there is only a color change, it gets a milky look, and tiny bubbles rising. I have to use a flashlight and look really close to see them. Other times krausen foams to the foil covering the mouth of the flask. So far they have stopped before over flowing my 2L flask.

Sites to look at:
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
http://www.yeastcalc.co/homebrew-calculators

With all that has been said, your beer should be good.
Cheers

Added: I also would not take too much from advice given at your LHBS. IMO they have not given you much that I would consider good.

 

[BeavStu]

2 days out and my beer is fermenting nicely! There was bubble actively at about the 6-8 hr. mark. Which is a huge difference from my first batch of beer, which took about 18 hrs before showing any activity. That time I used dry yeast and simply rehydrated an hour before pitching. It may be the beer style but this time I can smell the hops/beer in the back room where my fermenter is going. Anyone else have this happen to them? My bucket is well sealed. I double checked. Just making sure, there was no smell on my previous brew. It was a brown ale.

One more potentially stupid question regarding yeast starters. Do you need to use the same type of malt extract for your starter as you would for the beer your brewing. I have a small bag of LME that the LHBS sold me for making the yeast starter for this beer. Can I continue to use it for other styles or do I need make starters with different malts? Or does it simply not matter.

Thanks in advance.

 

[kombat]

If you're chilling and decanting your starter, then it doesn't matter what type of extract you use. If you're planning on pitching the whole thing, I'd use the same type of extract as was used in the main batch, to minimize flavour differences. But the yeast won't care either way.

 

[Hopper5000]

Agreed with above. You can just use LME. I use that for every starter I make

 

[christyle]

x3 on above, but I've been using the same amber dme for all my beers, and not decanting. I'm going to start decanting before pitching now to see if it helps with the flavor.

As far as the smell goes, I would assume that an increase in activity means more co2 coming out of the fermentor, which means more aroma coming out of the fermentor.