Yeast starter question

[zeg]

Oh no worries.

And for a 1060 beer with fresh yeast, you'd need 219 billion cells or 2.3 packs. Or a starter

...or an 11g pack of dry yeast...

 

[Adam_Selene]

Yeast make beer. That's why most brewers have "yeast fetishism."

Planes land on air strips. If you build an air strip, planes will land. Cargo Cult. (Google it)

--Adam Selene

 

[Adam_Selene]

Yeah, it's the beer you're making. I usually make my starters a bit less than 1.040, based on some book---perhaps Yeast. IIRC, I've seen recommendations from reputable sources that vary from about 1.020 to 1.040 as ideal. I think the key is to create a gentle environment that coddles the average member of the yeast culture---too high a gravity will bias survival in favor of monster yeast, which are likely not the ones that give the selected strain its desired character.



What Warthaug said. Also, unlike dry yeast, the manufacturers assume you are going to use a starter if you are using liquid yeast. They provide plenty of cells for a starter. If you're not up to doing a starter, then stick to dry yeast.

(That piece of advice appears at least as far back as Papazian's classic.)

**** Papazian.

 

[bigdongsr94]

I just wanted to say that I agree with Adams intent, I think, in leaving some of the Internet banter out of brewing and just don't worry and brew. I am in AG brewer and in no way think that pitch rate is the second most important thing. That's ridiculous to say if by not making a starter you make a 1.070 and only pitch one packet...big deal. You slightly under pitched. I would worry about mash thickness, mash temp control, sanitation, boiling time and hop additions, boiling intensity, my mash recipe, dropping the yeast at proper temp, proper cooling, and probably many other thing before pitch rates. My intention is to be funny and not really jump on Adams side though because after all this talk I will make my first starter tonight and hope for this significant difference in my beer. To me there is a pecking order of things to try and perfect and pitch rate was low, prob not correct but just how it worked for me. I had a lot of other issues along the way.


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[zeg]

**** Papazian.

Wow, you're edgy.

I just wanted to say that I agree with Adams intent, I think, in leaving some of the Internet banter out of brewing and just don't worry and brew. I am in AG brewer and in no way think that pitch rate is the second most important thing. That's ridiculous to say if by not making a starter you make a 1.070 and only pitch one packet...big deal. You slightly under pitched. I would worry about mash thickness, mash temp control, sanitation, boiling time and hop additions, boiling intensity, my mash recipe, dropping the yeast at proper temp, proper cooling, and probably many other thing before pitch rates. My intention is to be funny and not really jump on Adams side though because after all this talk I will make my first starter tonight and hope for this significant difference in my beer. To me there is a pecking order of things to try and perfect and pitch rate was low, prob not correct but just how it worked for me. I had a lot of other issues along the way.

Not sure I can tell where you're serious and where you're ironic, but you're right that you have to choose your battles. However, that's different from advocating poor practices when better alternatives are no more difficult.

 

[bigdongsr94]

I was just saying that, choose your battles but what is funny to me is while saying that I am trying to make a starter cause I was informed that and now it seems stupid not too. My situation is also generally very close to a proper pitch as I am rarely above 1.060 and generally pitching on <5 gal.


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[Adam_Selene]

Adam, I can appreciate what you're trying to do -

I appreciate what your trying to do. Reduce the ******* pressure on this thread. I don't like it either.

simplify the process for beginners - but yeast pitching rates are the second most important factor in making good beer (the first, in my opinion, being temperature control).

What about sanitation? That can be a bit of a show stopper.

Underpitching is one of the most common mistakes new (and even experienced) brewers make, which is sad because it's also one of the easiest to correct.

If you want to steer newbies away from the complexities of starters and advocate just pitching dry yeast that's absolutely fine, but you must still encourage them to pitch the CORRECT amount of dry yeast.

How can I do that if I don't know the other conditions involved?

The calculators will help you figure out how many packets to pitch. Heck, you don't even have to advocate rehydrating the dry yeast. If you want to keep it dead-simple for newbies, tell them they can sprinkle it directly into the wort. Just understand that doing so reduces viability by up to 50%, so they must adjust the number of packets they're pitching accordingly.

One 11.5g packet of (properly re-hydrated) ale yeast is good for 5 gallons of 1.040 wort. If they don't want to rehydrate, then they should pitch 2 packets. If they're brewing 1.060 beer, they should sprinkle 3 packets. By all means, keep it simple if you want, I have no problem with that, but at least keep it CORRECT and simple.

A beginner will have to choose one, or the other in practice. I would rather insult 10,000 "established" home-brewers that have been doing it for 20 years than scare one potential brewer with incessant bridges to cross.

 

[Pappers_]

Lets keep the conversation civil please, so no posts are deleted, no threads closed. Its fine to disagree, but no one wins arguments on internet forums.

To the topic of this thread, yeast management generally is one of the keys to good brewing. Giving the yeast a healthy environment in which to do their work, oxygenating, pitching sufficient amounts of viable yeast, controlling their environment temp while they do the work of fermentation.

I use dry yeast often when I haven't gone to the trouble of making a starter or planning so I can repitch a ton of yeast from a previous batch, because of pitching rates.

 

[Adam_Selene]

Ok. No flames.

Even after someone compares what I have to say to dog beating. I never.

I had this coming though. I KNEW this would hurt people's feelings. For what? It's just beer. The intimidation of beginners is what hurts my feelings. More so than the fetishism.

I'll re-iterate what I've tried to convey here again, because this is a good time to do it. I'll respond to whatever else tomorrow.

1) Beginners have enough to worry about already. People can only worry about so many things at once. The over emphasis on pitching rates is more likely to displace something else important than it is to save the day.

2) If the yeast is fresh, then depending on the conditions involved, you may not have to do a starter. In fact, you often won't. More often than is generally known. WAY more often. (why, I don't know... (internet/silly books/cargo culture)

3) As I have already mentioned in this thread, beginners can too easily screw up rehydration of powdered yeast. If they mishandle either the measuring cup, or the thermometer they can kill half the cells before they even get a chance to pitch.

4) Fresh yeast is not always available, but it's available enough that we don't have to make sweeping assumptions before we even read the date stamp.

5) You don't NEED a flask/stir-plate/stir-bar to do a starter for your five gallon batch.

Where does good practice begin, and absurdity end? Are we supposed to be telling the people that do the Brooklyn Brewshop 1 gallon kits that they need a 50 ml erlenmeyer flask to do their starters in? With a big fat stir bar in there already? Come on.

--Adam Selene

 

[aslander]

Cut your losses man. Sometimes there's a point when you just need to stop, reevaluate the situation, and realize that having the last word doesn't further the discussion. The nature of forums is to get a wide array of opinions. You've filled up this thread with post after post of banter. We understand your opinion, so just chill and let others say theirs. No need to respond to every post because you feel attacked. It just instigated things.

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[sfish]

Well well....

My first thread and I do say thank you for the education. I have learned a good bit, that I will put into pratice, and information I have used to go elsewhere and research.

It has been implied a thread could be removed. I personally would like to be able to reference this at times in the future. I understand the different points of view posted here and the debate and once again; thank you.

sfish

 

[Pappers_]

Well well....

My first thread and I do say thank you for the education. I have learned a good bit, that I will put into pratice, and information I have used to go elsewhere and research.

It has been implied a thread could be removed. I personally would like to be able to reference this at times in the future. I understand the different points of view posted here and the debate and once again; thank you.

sfish

Interesting thread, sfish! There are lots of threads on starters here on the forums for you to read through and I personally learned a lot reading Yeast by Chris White and Jamil Zanisheff (spelling?) - well worth the time.

And we've all learned that while most of the posters here think that paying attention to pitching rate is one of the most important things a homebrewer can do when s/he's ready to advance beyond beginner brewing status, some do not.

For those who participated in this thread, the next time you come upon a disagreement like this, I would urge you to make your point and then move on. Don't make it personal (the best way to do that is to not even address another member, just the issue). Some folks who are not able to be civil in these sorts of threads are now former members of HBT, but I hate to see that happen unnecessarily.

Because the OP's questions have been addressed and to remove the temptation to keep the back and forth argument going, I'm closing the thread but leaving it up for anyone to see.