Yeast starter question

[Adam_Selene]

I was talking about this statement:

If you used a 1 month old pack of liquid yeast, you'd have roughly 75 billion cells and you should only pitch that into a 5 gallon, 1.021 wort or lower or you are underpitching. 10 gallons is even worse.

Well, have you counted each cell and asked them if they were still alive enough to wake up or not? Do you know how well they have been stored since the date of manufacturing? Did they sit for three weeks at room temperature in a where-house, before your reseller put them in the fridge? OR, were they FEDEXd the next day, surrounded by ice packs, and then stuck in a fridge? If your in doubt, do a starter in an apple juice jug. Shake well. Otherwise buy THREE one month old packages. Do THAT before you screw around with laboratory glass and a stirplate.

If you don't believe in the pitching rate that experts advocate (0.75 - 1 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato) then there is nothing really else to say.

Firstly, no one has ever complained to me about my beer being under, or over pitched.
Secondly, how do you KNOW that you have 0.75 - 1M cells of VIABLE yeast for every ml, of anything? How do you test for that?
Thirdly, (and this is just anecdotal, so it's not objective evidence for anything) of the professional brewers I know, one was originally a professional mycologist, the other was originally a professional microbiologist. They disagree on pitching rates. I don't remember who low balled it, sorry.

I'm also saying this may be incorrect:
If you properly rehydrate dry yeast, for a 1 month old 11.5 g packet, you can make a 5 gallon, ~1.056 beer or you are underpitching.

In my experience, more beginners will screw up re-hydration than will suffer a bad ferment from an old package. Dry yeast KEPT in a fridge has a shelf life of two years, generally. That's almost certainly an understatement. Just as average attenuation is probably understated, and contact time for sanitizers is probably overstated.

Again, if you don't agree with the established pitching rate, then there is nothing else to say.

You can say as little more on this as you like. It won't hurt my feelings. Your "pitching rate" talk sounds like cargo culture to me.

You are advocating underpitching - see my math above.

No. I'm not. I'm not interested in your math either. I'm interested in your accuracy. Mother Nature does not care what numbers you plug into your calculator. She doesn't care about your assumptions. She doesn't care how badly you handled the yeast in the meantime. She doesn't care how many years you have been doing it wrong.

But I feel it's better to educate beginner brewers and then they can decide how much effort they want to put into their beer.

That's the worst approach. Beginners have no clue what "effort" entails in this context. They don't need *education*. They need guidance-- out of the confusion. Once beginners figure out where they are-- they SELF educate. They self guide. All this nonsense about pitching rates and propagation is unhelpful.

In the beginning, I too just sprinkled the dry yeast on my beer and I thought it was pretty good - it really wasn't. It was okay and drinkable, but after using appropriate pitching rates, controlling fermentation temperatures and figuring out water chemistry, my beers have gotten a lot better.

That's awesome... When grandpa finally figured out that a slice of toast wasn't a great source of yeast, back in 1965, that was awesome too. His beer improved after he switched to bakers yeast.

No one that is just starting out needs to worry about your yeast fetish.

--Adam Selene

 

[sfish]

As a beginner, don't bother about pitching rates, and starters.
Get some dry yeast and pitch it directly. If you get liquid, and it's less than a month old, pitch that directly.


--Adam Salene[/QUOTE]

All this is being understood and as a beginner I am learning and having fun.

What I was doing was growing enough yeast from 2 bottles of my fishbrew to make (2) 5 gal batches. The same except different hops. As both a challenge and a learning experience. I need help I asked. This thread has done great.

Both batches are doing just great.

Why when using yeastcalc.com why does it not use in the calculation the gravity of the starter? Maybe I was using it wrong.

Edit: I can not open this now (yeastcalc.com) what happened?

Thank you all,
sfish

 

[Warthaug]

Yeastcalc dissapeared, its now at yeastcalculator.com

As for the calculator, it assumes the starter is 1.040. This appears to be the "sweet spot" for most strains of yeast in terms of yield (of yeast cells) relative to gravity.

Bryan

 

[mtnagel]

Well, have you counted each cell and asked them if they were still alive enough to wake up or not?...

I don't have the time or desire to reply point by point, so I'm just going to say that there are many ways to make beer. I'm interested in learning as much as possible to make the best possible beer and I get that not everyone wants to put that much time and effort into it. But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't tell beginners the more time intensive (and arguably better) method when asking a specific question about it.

 

[Warthaug]

I was going to avoid this, but I'm irritated for other reasons so here we go...

Well, have you counted each cell and asked them if they were still alive enough to wake up or not? Do you know how well they have been stored since the date of manufacturing? Did they sit for three weeks at room temperature in a where-house, before your reseller put them in the fridge? OR, were they FEDEXd the next day, surrounded by ice packs, and then stuck in a fridge? If your in doubt, do a starter in an apple juice jug. Shake well. Otherwise buy THREE one month old packages. Do THAT before you screw around with laboratory glass and a stirplate.

Having taught a number of brand-new brewers how to make starter, I have to call BS on this. If you can boil water, you can make a starter. Its far easier than brewing an extract or mini-mash brew. All you need is a pot & pop bottle; no lab equipment required. Of the things new brewers can do to easily, cheaply and with low risk, improve their quality of their beers, proper pitching numbers of highly viable yeast (aka using a starter) is pretty much top of the list.

As for your nonsence about asking yeast how their doing & counting them, we don't need to do that because its all been done before. The viability loss rates used by wyeast/white labs are based on their repetitive, real-world measurements of viability loss during normal shipping and handling processes. Any reputable homebrew shop's yeasts will meet or exceed those viability estimates.

Firstly, no one has ever complained to me about my beer being under, or over pitched.

Have you ever had it judged by someone who would know what to look for? Faults caused by underpitching are amoung the most common reported in competitions, and are quite obvious to experience judges/brewers.

Secondly, how do you KNOW that you have 0.75 - 1M cells of VIABLE yeast for every ml, of anything? How do you test for that?

For those of us with some basic lab equipment, this is a trivial thing to measure. But again, thanks to the hard work of the yeast wranglers at wyeast, white labs, and elsewhere, we have a very good handle on what typical yeast numbers are after passage through certain sized starters. Yeast aren't magic - they behave in a fairly consistent manner and exhibit predictable behaviours.

Thirdly, (and this is just anecdotal, so it's not objective evidence for anything) of the professional brewers I know, one was originally a professional mycologist, the other was originally a professional microbiologist. They disagree on pitching rates. I don't remember who low balled it, sorry.

Just because two experts cannot agree on one specific value for pitch rates does not mean that underpitching does not exist. We may argue over whether .75M or 1.5M is ideal; no one is going to argue 0.1M is anything other that massive under-pitching.

No. I'm not. I'm not interested in your math either. I'm interested in your accuracy. Mother Nature does not care what numbers you plug into your calculator. She doesn't care about your assumptions. She doesn't care how badly you handled the yeast in the meantime. She doesn't care how many years you have been doing it wrong.

Nature isn't conscious, so it doesn't think at all about anything. However, as a microbiologist & professor I can say categorically that you are way off base. Microorgansims - yeast or otherwise - behave in very predictable fashions. For example, in my lab when we grow up the pathogens we study we can predict, to within a few percent, the population numbers that will be in our culture at any given time. And all we need for that is media of a known nutrient density & a rough (i.e. within a factor of 10) count of the cells in the source culture. For us timing is critical - we need cells in mid-log phase; a part of their growth that lasts about 1hr over a 12 hour growth period. And we nail it - every time, with information no more accurate than that knowing your yeast viability is somewhere between 10% and 100%.

That's the worst approach. Beginners have no clue what "effort" entails in this context. They don't need *education*.

All I can say is thank god you're not a teacher.

They need guidance-- out of the confusion. Once beginners figure out where they are-- they SELF educate. They self guide. All this nonsense about pitching rates and propagation is unhelpful.

Most brewers - and professional educators - would disagree with your pedagogical approach.

Bryan

 

[Adam_Selene]

I was going to avoid this, but I'm irritated for other reasons so here we go...

That's OK.

Having taught a number of brand-new brewers how to make starter, I have to call BS on this. If you can boil water, you can make a starter. Its far easier than brewing an extract or mini-mash brew. All you need is a pot & pop bottle; no lab equipment required.

That last point, I have made more than once in this thread.

Of the things new brewers can do to easily, cheaply and with low risk, improve their quality of their beers, proper pitching numbers of highly viable yeast (aka using a starter)

Or using a population that's already viable. It's not YES, or NO, it's what-- under what circumstances-- and why. The HOW fallows from that. "HI! I've never made beer before, but I'm totally stoked! Do I need a thermometer to tell me when my kettle is at 100c???!!!" ... "No, you need to slow down a little bit, and get a package of dry yeast."

is pretty much top of the list.

(using a starter)
No. Just get fresh yeast otherwise. I'm not saying DON'T do a starter EVER. I'm saying that a starter isn't necessarily-- necessary. It's not the gateway to brewing, nor is the end of the rainbow.

As for your nonsence about asking yeast how their doing & counting them, we don't need to do that because its all been done before.

I know. They even stamp the number of yeast on the package sometimes.

The viability loss rates used by wyeast/white labs are based on their repetitive, real-world measurements of viability loss during normal shipping and handling processes. Any reputable homebrew shop's yeasts will meet or exceed those viability estimates.

Yes. Are you trying to HELP me talk beginners out of a doing starter?

Have you ever had it judged by someone who would know what to look for? Faults caused by underpitching are amoung the most common reported in competitions, and are quite obvious to experience judges/brewers.

Yes.

For those of us with some basic lab equipment, this is a trivial thing to measure.

Could you list the lab equipment necessary so that beginners can jump on amazon and grab some Chinese b-stock?

But again, thanks to the hard work of the yeast wranglers at wyeast, white labs, and elsewhere, we have a very good handle on what typical yeast numbers are after passage through certain sized starters. Yeast aren't magic - they behave in a fairly consistent manner and exhibit predictable behaviours.


Just because two experts cannot agree on one specific value for pitch rates does not mean that underpitching does not exist.

Did I suggest that BIGFOOT doesn't exist? No, I didn't do that either. Yes, you can under pitch. I didn't say it was an impossibility. It's all too common, through mishandling of yeast that were otherwise viable.

We may argue over whether .75M or 1.5M is ideal; no one is going to argue 0.1M is anything other that massive under-pitching.


Nature isn't conscious, so it doesn't think at all about anything. However, as a microbiologist & professor I can say categorically that you are way off base. Microorgansims - yeast or otherwise - behave in very predictable fashions.

I'm not sure which base you think I'm on.

How about a categorical error? Before the rest of your perfect Thanksgiving dinner recipe story, I should point out that your average beginner does NOT have a laboratory. They have a kitchen, and hopefully a measuring cup. The predictability of microorganisms or anything else in nature isn't much help if you have poor accuracy, or are unsure enough of what you are doing.

For example, in my lab when we grow up the pathogens we study we can predict, to within a few percent, the population numbers that will be in our culture at any given time. And all we need for that is media of a known nutrient density & a rough (i.e. within a factor of 10) count of the cells in the source culture. For us timing is critical - we need cells in mid-log phase; a part of their growth that lasts about 1hr over a 12 hour growth period. And we nail it - every time, with information no more accurate than that knowing your yeast viability is somewhere between 10% and 100%.

That's really amazing. How does that clarify things for the beginner?
I have a story about scientists too. "When I asked him, my microbiologist friend told me, that if I couldn't get an air pump, I should shake the carboy for a few minutes every day because yeast like oxygen!..." Why don't you just ask the guy that monitors a fractionating tower at a refinery how to make whiskey? (actually that guy probably does make whiskey) Whatever. I think I've made my point.

All I can say is thank god you're not a teacher.

Sorry. God intervened against your wishes years ago.

Most brewers - and professional educators -

I don't know most of them, just two or three carloads of them.

would disagree with your pedagogical approach.

Well, I'm not sure you understood my earlier posts. I'm not sure we have the same goal(s). I'm telling beginners not to screw around with starters if they can get reasonably fresh yeast. They have enough to worry about already, and generally worry too much as it is. What's your message? If you have a laboratory it's trivial. If you don't, don't worry! The people that make the yeast know what they are doing-- BUT DO A STARTER!

I don't get it. I don't get yeast fetishism. Some one else can accuse me of not caring about pitching rates AT ALL, now. Maybe if I explain it again it will finally sink in that the exact opposite is the case.

--Adam Selene

 

[Adam_Selene]

double post

 

[mtnagel]

I don't get it. I don't get yeast fetishism. Some one else can accuse me of not caring about pitching rates AT ALL, now. Maybe if I explain it again it will finally sink in that the exact opposite is the case.

--Adam Selene

Yeast make beer. That's why most brewers have "yeast fetishism."

 

[sfish]

Wow, Looks like I stirred up some trud.

sfish

 

[kombat]

Adam, I can appreciate what you're trying to do - simplify the process for beginners - but yeast pitching rates are the second most important factor in making good beer (the first, in my opinion, being temperature control). Underpitching is one of the most common mistakes new (and even experienced) brewers make, which is sad because it's also one of the easiest to correct.

If you want to steer newbies away from the complexities of starters and advocate just pitching dry yeast, that's absolutely fine, but you must still encourage them to pitch the CORRECT amount of dry yeast. The calculators will help you figure out how many packets to pitch. Heck, you don't even have to advocate rehydrating the dry yeast. If you want to keep it dead-simple for newbies, tell them they can sprinkle it directly into the wort. Just understand that doing so reduces viability by up to 50%, so they must adjust the number of packets they're pitching accordingly.

One 11.5g packet of (properly rehydrated) ale yeast is good for 5 gallons of 1.040 wort. If they don't want to rehydrate, then they should pitch 2 packets. If they're brewing 1.060 beer, they should sprinkle 3 packets. By all means, keep it simple if you want, I have no problem with that, but at least keep it CORRECT and simple.

 

[sfish]

Would it be better to overpitch then to underpitch?

 

[Warthaug]

Or using a population that's already viable.

Which, from commercial yeast sources, doesn't exist. Any process meant to store & ship yeasts negatively impacts their health & viability; hence why starters (& rehydration for dried yeast) is so important.

Yes. Are you trying to HELP me talk beginners out of a doing starter?

No, I was pointing out the stupidity of your claim that we need to somehow ask the yeast how they are doing before deciding whether to do a starter or not.

Could you list the lab equipment necessary so that beginners can jump on amazon and grab some Chinese b-stock?

Of course, to make your "point", you had to clip the rest of my statement wherein I outlined why such capacities are completely unnecessary for either the new, or experience brewer. Why is it you have to distort what I wrote to make your "points"? As was mentioned in my post - before you dishonestly deleted the section that was inconvenient to you - all of these numbers have been calculated before, there is no need for brewers of any stripe (except, perhaps, the anal-retentive ones) to do yeast counts.

But, to actually answer your question (instead of dishonestly editing it so I can reply with something unrelated), all you need is a hemocytometer & toy microscope - cost is ~$50, new, and that's with a USB-connected microscope...

I'm not sure which base you think I'm on.

The one where you are advocating a position that starters are not worthwhile for the beginner due to some sort of imaginary unpredictability of yeast, imaginary complexity of starters, and imaginary incompetence of new brewers.

How about a categorical error? Before the rest of your perfect Thanksgiving dinner recipe story, I should point out that your average beginner does NOT have a laboratory. They have a kitchen, and hopefully a measuring cup. The predictability of microorganisms or anything else in nature isn't much help if you have poor accuracy, or are unsure enough of what you are doing.

You really need to read what was written; the whole point of my "story" was that you do not need laboratory equipment to achieve a reasonably accurate estimate of yeast numbers post-starter. Simply knowing nothing more than your media composition (e.g. 1.040 DME) and a rough idea of starting numbers is sufficient - both at home, and in a real lab. All we need in a lab to get the cell numbers we require is media of a known OG & a rough (within a factor of 10) idea of the number of cells we add at the beginning.

The home brewer, in their kitchen, knows those values to within the accuracy required, without the need for any specialized equipment beyond a scale. That is all it takes - a measly $5 kitchen scale - to achieve the exact same degree of control and predictability in your kitchen that I achieve in my lab. In other words, if you can operate a scale, boil water, and read viability info off the side of your tube of yeast, you can be as accurate in your kitchen as I can be in my lab.

That's really amazing. How does that clarify things for the beginner?
I have a story about scientists too. "When I asked him, my microbiologist friend told me, that if I couldn't get an air pump, I should shake the carboy for a few minutes every day because yeast like oxygen!..." Why don't you just ask the guy that monitors a fractionating tower at a refinery how to make whiskey? (actually that guy probably does make whiskey) Whatever. I think I've made my point.

I don't think you made a point there; unless your point was to make make some sort of snide side-remark attempting to dismiss my expertise in an area in which you are clearly ignorant. As for your new question, teaching a beginner about proper pitching rates and how to achieve them does a number of things:

1) Its never too early to lean about best practices; even if you are not immediately capable of implementing them.
2) Starters are an extremely simple thing to do, well within the capabilities of most new brewers
3) Starters provide a new (or old) brewer with an easy and cheap approach to improve the quality of their beer.
4) Informing a new brewer of the role of proper yeast numbers & health sets them up for success by informing them of a common cause of bad-tasting beer and provides them with a procedure to avoid it.

As someone who has <indirectly> claimed to be a teacher, you should recognize that as the de facto standard of good pedagogy for self-directed learning.

I'd also point out that comfort levels vary greatly between people. I'v known brewers whose first brews were all-grain, complete with yeast starter, and were successful. I've known others who brewed extract kits for a prolonged time in order to build their confidence. Most new brewers fall in-between. Your approach is to assume that all beginners are incompetent and incapable of handling a rather pedestrian task. It is an unrealistic position, underestimates many new brewers, and is also quite insulting to the majority of new brewers to whom starters are well within their capacity & comfort zone. Again, as someone claiming to be a teacher you should be well aware of asynchronous learning and how you as a teacher set up all students for success given different their learning capacities...

Well, I'm not sure you understood my earlier posts. I'm not sure we have the same goal(s). I'm telling beginners not to screw around with starters if they can get reasonably fresh yeast.

Which is, generally speaking, bad advice. Hence the push-back you are receiving. Viability is not the sole factor in yeast quality - yeast health is also key. Packaged yeast, even when fresh from the company, is generally of poor health. Anoxic, nutrient-void environments are not friendly towards yeast health. Nor is being dehydrated. Reaching appropriate pitching numbers by pitching multiple vials of yeast is still inferior (in terms of yeast health, off-flavour production, attenuation, fermentation speed, etc) than yeast from a starter. It is also significantly more expensive, and is a bad brewing practice. You're essentially arguing that new brewers get into bad habits that they will later have to break, rather than doing it correctly (or at least being aware of how to do it correctly) from the beginning.

They have enough to worry about already, and generally worry too much as it is. What's your message? If you have a laboratory it's trivial. If you don't, don't worry! The people that make the yeast know what they are doing-- BUT DO A STARTER!

My message is simple and concise - proper pitching of healthy yeast is the easiest thing a new brewer can do to maximize the quality of their beers. Achieving this is simple, cheap, does not require one iota of specialized equipment, and is well within the capacity of the majority of new brewers. Hell, I even have a blog post & video showing them how to do it.

I don't get it. I don't get yeast fetishism. Some one else can accuse me of not caring about pitching rates AT ALL, now. Maybe if I explain it again it will finally sink in that the exact opposite is the case.

Given that yeast are (sours aside) the sole source of fermentation in the beer, a major source of both flavours and off flavours, and are the one ingredient whose quality & activity the brewer actually controls, their health & activity should be the foremost concern to every brewer of every skill level. Good yeast can turn a bad brewday into a passable beer. Bad yeast can turn a perfect brew-day into an unpalatable beer. Learning to properly manage yeast is the single most important, and by far simplest, thing a brewer can do to improve the product they produce.

Hence the "fetish".

Bryan

 

[Warthaug]

Would it be better to overpitch then to underpitch?

Overpitching is better. Extreme over-pitching can detract from a beer. But for the home brewer it is very difficult to get to those sorts of pitch rates. In fact, you can be 4 or 5 times over the "ideal" pitch rate without significant problems, while being 1/2 under can lead to issues & off-flavours.

As an example, many people will pitch directly onto the yeast cake left over from a previous batch of beer. Assuming average gravity beers both times, that works out to an over-pitch of 5X or 6X, and people rarely report issues arising from that. The main thing you find with "extreme" overpitching is a lack of ester flavours & sometimes an over-thinning of the beer body.

Bryan

 

[mtnagel]

Would it be better to overpitch then to underpitch?

Everything I've read says yes. Of course you can way overpitch by hundreds of billions of cells if you reuse the entire yeast cake from a previous batch, so I wouldn't do that.

Edit: or what Bryan said. That's what I get for getting distracted while typing up a reply.

 

[kombat]

Another "overpitcher" here. I've done both, and the detrimental effects on the beer are vastly more pronounced with underpitching.

When I re-use yeast, I harvest the yeast cake from a 5 gallon batch of beer into 4 Mason jars. I use each Mason jar on another batch of yeast, which strictly speaking, is overpitching by roughly a factor of 2. But I rarely repitch right away, so the jars typically sit in the fridge for a few weeks before being decanted and pitched (which decreases viability), and I don't bother doing a starter when re-pitching yeast, so my rough calculations estimate that my pitch is just about right, or only slightly over.

 

[sawbossFogg]

You do realize that your method is essentially identical to running one set of numbers on MrMalty, then using that solution for every beer, right?




I think pitching an appropriate amount of dry yeast is probably the best approach for inexperienced brewers. I've only ever used 11g packs, so I think in terms of those, but they are aimed at 5 gallon batches and are sufficient for up to OGs of 1.07 or 1.08. If you're doing larger batches, you don't need to get too clever---just increase the number of packs proportionally.

If the calculator is intimidating, I think this is a more than adequate method that is unlikely to steer you very wrong.

I agree you are correct. As an example I recently brewed a 5 gal .080 all grain porter with my brother while visiting on a borrowed system and we pitched 2 Notti packs with great success. What I wanted to point out the new user trying develop their knowledge is that the calcs will advise this and provide peace of mind as well give the inquiring mind some insight into the cells and ratio they're pitching. I like brewers friend the best.
Lastly I saw somewhere in hear a question lost in the drudgery of jaw jacking and swing dicks that asked simply why the calc were asking for a gravity and if that was the gravity of the starter. I think someone mentioned the starting gravity at ~.040 was best practice and he can read endlessly on this on HBT. I think the answer he was looking for was the calc is asking you to input the OG and volume of the wort you plan to pitch into in order to help you prepare an appropriate number of beasties.

Anyone who hasn't should read Bobs post titled Something like Don't Pitch on your Yeast Cake. It's excellent.

Adam, go beat your dog of something.


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[newnick]

I believe I've learned something here, thanks.

 

[res291que]

^ me too people are very opinionated, even if they don't have a clue what they are talking about. Oh, and when people get fired up they loose sight of grammar and spelling issues with their post ( I only pick up on this cause I suck at both and get corrected constantly by English majors).


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[sawbossFogg]

I believe I've learned something here, thanks.

Good!


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[sawbossFogg]

^ me too people are very opinionated, even if they don't have a clue what they are talking about. Oh, and when people get fired up they loose sight of grammar and spelling issues with their post ( I only pick up on this cause I suck at both and get corrected constantly by English majors).


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Maybe you should be an English major. All grammar and no content.


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[newnick]

I've been trying to improve my brewing and did my first starter about a month ago. I wonder why they don't put enough yeast cells in a package of liquid yeast to actually do a batch without a starter.

 

[mtnagel]

Cost.

 

[Warthaug]

And other reasons - enough yeast for a 1.055 batch of beer isn't enough for a 1.080 batch of beer. And enough for 5 gal isn't enough for 10. In addition, viability drops over time, so enough yeast at packaging can quickly become not enough in the brewery.

Bryan

 

[zeg]

asked simply why the calc were asking for a gravity and if that was the gravity of the starter. I think someone mentioned the starting gravity at ~.040 was best practice and he can read endlessly on this on HBT. I think the answer he was looking for was the calc is asking you to input the OG and volume of the wort you plan to pitch into in order to help you prepare an appropriate number of beasties.

Yeah, it's the beer you're making. I usually make my starters a bit less than 1.040, based on some book---perhaps Yeast. IIRC, I've seen recommendations from reputable sources that vary from about 1.020 to 1.040 as ideal. I think the key is to create a gentle environment that coddles the average member of the yeast culture---too high a gravity will bias survival in favor of monster yeast, which are likely not the ones that give the selected strain its desired character.

I've been trying to improve my brewing and did my first starter about a month ago. I wonder why they don't put enough yeast cells in a package of liquid yeast to actually do a batch without a starter.

What Warthaug said. Also, unlike dry yeast, the manufacturers assume you are going to use a starter if you are using liquid yeast. They provide plenty of cells for a starter. If you're not up to doing a starter, then stick to dry yeast.

(That piece of advice appears at least as far back as Papazian's classic.)

 

[newnick]

They claim a package is good for a 5gal. batch up to 1.060 gravity, don't most calculators say you need more?

 

[mtnagel]

They claim a package is good for a 5gal. batch up to 1.060 gravity, don't most calculators say you need more?

Yes, this is what I said earlier in the thread:

If you used a 1 month old pack of liquid yeast, you'd have roughly 75 billion cells and you should only pitch that into a 5 gallon, 1.021 wort or lower or you are underpitching.

And who makes a 1.021 beer?

 

[newnick]

Sorry you had to repeat yourself, I've been trying to pay attention.

 

[mtnagel]

Oh no worries.

And for a 1060 beer with fresh yeast, you'd need 219 billion cells or 2.3 packs. Or a starter

 

[Warthaug]

They claim a package is good for a 5gal. batch up to 1.060 gravity, don't most calculators say you need more?

One of those tubes/packs, pitched into 5gal of an average ale, will eventually ferment out. And, with some secondary aging will eventually turn into a nice beer. This usually takes over a month. Use a starter into the same ale and you can be in the keg/bottle in as little as a week (although 2 weeks is more normal), no secondarying is required, and the beer will probably taste better too...

Bryan

 

[newnick]

It looks like I'm heading in the right direction with the brews that I plan to make then. Thanks