Yeast starter and step up help needed

[ILMSTMF]

Hello,

I have an extract imperial stout from Northern Brewer ready to brew. 5 gallon batch, OG 1.086, brew day is Saturday and I need to make sure I have enough yeast by then.
Never made a proper starter before. The yeast is manufactured on 11/24/14. Calculators are throwing me off with the step up steps. So...

• Does it matter what the total volume of first starter is?
• When should I make it relative to brew day?
• How much time between each step up?
• AND what are the steps in between? Like temperature to store at and when to do all this in relation to brew day. Cold crash?

Finally, decant or not? And at which step? This step gets me nervous. How does one know when they aren't pouring out the yeast with the spent wort? Thanks!

 

[carvetop]

Like most issues that come up here, you'll get several different responses. My recommendation FWIW is to use YeastCalc. It will give you a target based on the batch size and gravity. It also allows for up to 3 steps. The size of the step does matter because there is a sweet spot of cells/mL that give the ideal growth rate without compromising yeast health. Again, the calculator will offer advice along these lines.
As far as a timeline goes, it depends if you're using a stirplate or not. If so, my opinion is that 24 hrs per step is plenty. If not, use your judgment based on visible activity and the amount of agitation that you're able to provide manually.
I always crash and decant but others claim good results without doing so. For me, it is simple enough, I always leave enough time for it and it gives me good results. Decanting is obviously mandatory when you don't have room in your vessel for the next step.

 

[ILMSTMF]

Thanks for your response, carvetop.

I checked out yeastcalc, not too shabby. But I'm finding the one at brewers friend to be a bit more streamlined.
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
I should have mentioned that I don't have a dedicated vessel to make the starter in. I suppose I will purchase a 2L flask as is popular.
I don't own a stirplate so the method here will be intermittent shaking. That said, when should I make the initial starter? I'd like to keep enough time to crash between each step up. Thanks!

 

[flars]

My personal preference is the Brewers Friend calculator, which also allows for starter step ups. the time between steps depends upon the yeast you are using. A highly flocculant yeast like WY 1968 will drop out of solution in 24 hours. WY 1056 may take 48 hours.
You Should go for a growth rate of at least of 1.0 for optimum yeast cell propagation and yeast health. Basically if you start with a 1 liter starter, step 2 would be a 1.5 liter starter. (Sort of, I'm not looking at the calculator.)
You can make a starter a couple of weeks before brew day without any loss of cell viability.
This is a starter calculator with an over build option. You can make a starter larger than you need, save part of it to have fresh yeast for the next brews starter.
http://www.homebrewdad.com/yeast_calculator.php

 

[carvetop]

Thanks for your response, carvetop.

I checked out yeastcalc, not too shabby. But I'm finding the one at brewers friend to be a bit more streamlined.
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
I should have mentioned that I don't have a dedicated vessel to make the starter in. I suppose I will purchase a 2L flask as is popular.
I don't own a stirplate so the method here will be intermittent shaking. That said, when should I make the initial starter? I'd like to keep enough time to crash between each step up. Thanks!

You're welcome! I would get the starter going ASAP. You'll rarely be too far ahead of schedule in that regard. I'm sure you're thinking about it and I'll give you an extra push.... get/make a stirplate. Money well spent.

 

[flars]

This is my starter outfit.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/photo/new-yeast-starter-container-61619.html

Any container will work. Taller than it is wide, like a gallon pickle jar, works well.

 

[Justdrumin]

Hello,

I have an extract imperial stout from Northern Brewer ready to brew. 5 gallon batch, OG 1.086, brew day is Saturday and I need to make sure I have enough yeast by then.
Never made a proper starter before. The yeast is manufactured on 11/24/14. Calculators are throwing me off with the step up steps. So...

• Does it matter what the total volume of first starter is?
• When should I make it relative to brew day?
• How much time between each step up?
• AND what are the steps in between? Like temperature to store at and when to do all this in relation to brew day. Cold crash?

Finally, decant or not? And at which step? This step gets me nervous. How does one know when they aren't pouring out the yeast with the spent wort? Thanks!

To hit your first point. The volumes do matter. For that manufacturer date, the viability is terrible. Using Brewers friend, I have you needing 3 steps. First one is 2 liters, second 2 liters, third 3 liters. I would let each step ferment for 24 hours and crash for at least 24 hours. So I would say around a week or so ahead of time would be about right. I typically ferment my starters at my planned fermentation temp for the batch. That way the yeast are adjusted to the temps already. Pushing the temps a little higher may not hurt and speed up fermentation a bit. As far as decanting, if you cold crash, hopefully all of the wort will seperate and the yeast has settled to the bottom. I usually siphon the wort off and then replenish with new wort. Or in the last step I leave a small amount of wort to get the yeast cake off the bottom and then I pitch. Also, I just use a 1/2 gallon jug and gallon jug to make my starters in. Most of the time you can either buy them with juice or wine in them, or your LHBS may sell them cheap. I hope that helps you out!

 

[brewkinger]

I will ask since no one else has.
What yeast?

I also prefer the calculator at brewers friend. Just seems simpler to use.

 

[ILMSTMF]

Sorry! Wyeast 1728 Scottish ale. More tomorrow thanks.

 

[brewkinger]

So....
Viability is at 11% as of today 3/31 (11 billion cells)
You need 390 billion

Using the Brewers Friend calculator is looks like 3 step starter

2L starter of 1.036 wort / shaken not stirred

Crash / decant (69 billion cells)

2L starter (205 billion)

1.8L starter (395 billion)

Figure on 2 days for each step and Sunday would be a safe time to pitch right when that last step is running at full throttle.

 

[ILMSTMF]

Thanks everyone for your feedback.

Given that I don't have a vessel (or DME...or a stir plate...), doesn't look like I'll be making the starter before Saturday. :-\

Anyway, Northern guarantees viability of yeast within 3 months of order date. In this case, 1/19 gives me flexibility until 4/19. Between now and then, I plan to purchase, at least, a vessel to keep the starter in. I like flars' idea with that Rubbermaid. That would allow me to step up the volume at each step up and not be limited to only X liters.
I'm not handy, no way am I building a stir plate. It's a miracle I was able to build a temperature control sensor. :-D So... stir starters it is unless someone has a better plan.
So here's what I'll do...

• Acquire starter vessel, DME, and maybe a stir plate.
• Smack the Wyeast. Northern says it will inflate within 5 days. Fine with me because if it doesn't, they send a replacement. I'd much rather be sure of viability then go through all this trouble making a starter with dead yeast.
• If inflated, make starter about a week out from brew day.
• Step up as needed based on calculator and feedback above re: temps.

Sound about right? Thanks!

 

[Justdrumin]

Thanks everyone for your feedback.

Given that I don't have a vessel (or DME...or a stir plate...), doesn't look like I'll be making the starter before Saturday. :-\

Anyway, Northern guarantees viability of yeast within 3 months of order date. In this case, 1/19 gives me flexibility until 4/19. Between now and then, I plan to purchase, at least, a vessel to keep the starter in. I like flars' idea with that Rubbermaid. That would allow me to step up the volume at each step up and not be limited to only X liters.
I'm not handy, no way am I building a stir plate. It's a miracle I was able to build a temperature control sensor. :-D So... stir starters it is unless someone has a better plan.
So here's what I'll do...

• Acquire starter vessel, DME, and maybe a stir plate.
• Smack the Wyeast. Northern says it will inflate within 5 days. Fine with me because if it doesn't, they send a replacement. I'd much rather be sure of viability then go through all this trouble making a starter with dead yeast.
• If inflated, make starter about a week out from brew day.
• Step up as needed based on calculator and feedback above re: temps.

Sound about right? Thanks!

Viability declines very quickly in a few months. With a manufacturers date of 11/24 of last year, the viability of the yeast is next to nothing. If it were me, I would honestly get some new yeast. The time it will take you to step it up, as well as the cost of DME, may not be worth it. Plus I'd be a bit worried about yeast that old. Just my .02 cents.

 

[ILMSTMF]

Thanks justdrumin. I agree with your points which is why I'm pleased with NB's policy on viability. Kind of a safety net. So, if the pack doesn't expand, I'll ask them to honor their policy. Is that cheesy? After all, they sent me yeast that was about 2 months from manufacture date.

 

[brewkinger]

Thanks justdrumin. I agree with your points which is why I'm pleased with NB's policy on viability. Kind of a safety net. So, if the pack doesn't expand, I'll ask them to honor their policy. Is that cheesy? After all, they sent me yeast that was about 2 months from manufacture date.

You ordered the yeast in January from NB?
The expectation would be that you use said yeast immediately, not almost 3 months later.
Like I said earlier, that yeast has an 11% viability after this long.
Said a different way:
On 11/24/14, there were 100 billion cells that would have needed a starter to get it up to enough to pitch in that beer... and that was over 4 months ago.
Today there are 11 billion cells left which need 3 step starter to get up to speed for that beer.

While I would not call it cheesy, I doubt very highly that they will honor the 3 month rule. They expected you to use that yeast pretty soon after you got it.

You don't need a stir plate, many of us just swirl the vessel whenever we walk by it and it works just fine.
I'm not sure about a Rubbermaid container, as a starter should be in a glass vessel to prevent infections.

An empty glass growler or gallon wine jug or flask are all good options.

Hope this helps.

 

[ILMSTMF]

Thanks brewkinger. In all fairness, I did chat with their support people before making the purchase. It was a 3 kit special - I explained to the rep that I'd not be using the liquid yeast on the imperial stout kit for a little while. The rep said the yeast would last in the fridge for up to 3 months. And that's that.
That being said, I'm going to follow most of my above plan as soon as I possibly can. Except the vessel part and probably going to swirl, as you suggested. Flars, would you be so kind to weigh in on the plastic vs. glass issue?
Thanks!

 

[brewkinger]

I think that the rep might have been right and wrong at the same time.
That yeast will last in the fridge from January until now.
It will last another 3 months or more in the fridge too.
The viability will continue to drop as well.
That yeast is still good, just gonna need to be recharged before you pitch.

As far as glass v plastic debate, I will correct myself.
You can use plastic or glass as long as it is large enough to get the job done.
Plastic is inherently more dangerous because a small scratch or bacteria that remains inside could infect a whole batch.
Glass is inherently safer.
Either will work though.

 

[ILMSTMF]

*** Update ***

Smacked the pack a week ago and it inflated at room temp within a few hours, nice surprise! Didn't need to bother NB for a replacement but, as many here probably know already, their customer service is fantastic. Still, probably lost a lot of living yeast so...

• bought a 2L flask, light DME, and a White Labs WLP028 from my LHBS. Happy to give them the business too. Apparently, the flasks at NB are reviewed poorly. The flask from my LHBS feels nice and solid. And cost less than NB!

Question - good idea to combine the old Wyeast 1728 with the fresher WLP028? Based on dates, I would need to do a 2 step starter to create enough yeast cells for this batch (using both yeasts). Plan is to brew this Sunday before this yeast gets much older.

Oh, one more off-topic question... I used a blowoff hose into a glass of sanitizer on my last batch for the entire fermentation. Is this poor practice? This kit calls for a 3 month fermentation. Should I change to airlock or just keep the hose plugged in?

Thanks!

 

[carvetop]

*** Update ***

Smacked the pack a week ago and it inflated at room temp within a few hours, nice surprise! Didn't need to bother NB for a replacement but, as many here probably know already, their customer service is fantastic. Still, probably lost a lot of living yeast so...

• bought a 2L flask, light DME, and a White Labs WLP028 from my LHBS. Happy to give them the business too. Apparently, the flasks at NB are reviewed poorly. The flask from my LHBS feels nice and solid. And cost less than NB!

Question - good idea to combine the old Wyeast 1728 with the fresher WLP028? Based on dates, I would need to do a 2 step starter to create enough yeast cells for this batch (using both yeasts). Plan is to brew this Sunday before this yeast gets much older.

Oh, one more off-topic question... I used a blowoff hose into a glass of sanitizer on my last batch for the entire fermentation. Is this poor practice? This kit calls for a 3 month fermentation. Should I change to airlock or just keep the hose plugged in?

Thanks!

I would always advise removing the blowoff tube after it is no longer needed and replacing it with an airlock. With a fermentation timeline of 3 months, you may want to consider a secondary vessel in which the headspace is minimized.

 

[ILMSTMF]

Thanks carvetop. Funny enough, I used blowoff the entire month with my last batch in primary. Hose didn't get dirty at all (visibly). And the only time I observed any bubbling in the glass of sanitizer is when I put some pressure on the lid of the bucket. I'll be switching to airlock for this next batch once the ferment calms down.

Anyway, yes, it will be going into secondary which will have less headspace then the bucket.

Any takers on the WLP028 + 1728 mix in the starter? If yes (can of worms, open), recommended fermentation temp? :cross: