Yeast immobilization: magic beans of fermentation

[MidgymanEH]

Awesome. This looks like something I will have to try! As if I don't have enough projects as it is haha. If/Once I do, I will post results as well, to add to the information you are compiling. Thank you for sharing your experiment/notes/ideas. Great thread.

 

[sivrat]

sub'd

 

[brant740]

Any updates on additional batches?

 

[GrogNerd]

one of the guys just friggin disappeared, so we're going on the presumption that bean beer gained sentience and devoured him

 

[TANSTAAFB]

one of the guys just friggin disappeared, so we're going on the presumption that bean beer gained sentience and devoured him

Epic...

 

[hunter_le five]

....so we're going on the presumption that bean beer gained sentience and devoured him

I always feared this day would come....

I'd better finish my beer before it has a chance to turn on me.

 

[boydster]

one of the guys just friggin disappeared, so we're going on the presumption that bean beer gained sentience and devoured him

I have insider information that it wasn't the bean beer. It was actually the beer bean. Damn critters are ruthless.

 

[GrogNerd]

gak! I mixed up this thread with the fermenting lentil bean thread

mea culpa

 

[MalFet]

Fear not! This process is guaranteed to not spawn sentience. Your children, pets, and religious convictions are safe.

Not much to report, I'm afraid! I just finished another batch, and the good news/bad news is that the results were essentially identical. This time I gave the beads a good solid wash in StarSan, and there was no rebellion/krausen from escapees.

Unfortunately, I'm going to be on the road for a while now, so my experiments are temporarily on hold. I'll be monitoring this thread while I'm gone, though, so I hope others will chime in with their experiences. I know at least a couple of batches were in the works.

 

[boydster]

Fear not! This process is guaranteed to not spawn sentience. Your children, pets, and religious convictions are safe.

ZOMBIE! ...err I mean, great to hear from you, MalFet. I will be making some of these magic beans in the next few weeks I think and look forward to adding to the collective experiment.

 

[Hermit]

Unfortunately, I'm going to be on the road for a while now, so my experiments are temporarily on hold. I'll be monitoring this thread while I'm gone, though, so I hope others will chime in with their experiences. I know at least a couple of batches were in the works.

So, you gonna do an aging experiment then? See how long they last? Maybe drop them in some glycerin solution?

 

[MalFet]

So, you gonna do an aging experiment then? See how long they last? Maybe drop them in some glycerin solution?

Interesting thought! They'd be sitting in non-climate controlled storage locker for upwards of two years. I'm terrified to think what I'd find when I came back.

 

[Hermit]

Interesting thought! They'd be sitting in non-climate controlled storage locker for upwards of two years. I'm terrified to think what I'd find when I came back.

I was thinking more like a deep freeze, but it's your call. Now I'll bet you are really sorry for not adding the bio luminescence factor.

 

[GrogNerd]

I was thinking more like a deep freeze, but it's your call. Now I'll bet you are really sorry for not adding the bio luminescence factor.

glowing zombie beer beans

you are just asking for trouble

 

[BBL_Brewer]

I'd like to try and make a mild sour sometime using immobilization. passedpawn's idea. Couple of questions though. To eliminate free rangers, would a star san rinse be ok? I'm not sure that would be a good idea with bacteria. If not, I could try the encapsulation technique. Secondly, I'm assuming the best time to add them would be after primary? I'm thinking wait until the krausen falls and then add the beans. Sample every few days until desired tartness is achieved and then rack to secondary. Thoughts? I've never made a sour before. I tried one, liked the taste, but it was way too tart for me.

 

[Hermit]

I'd like to try and make a mild sour sometime using immobilization. passedpawn's idea. Couple of questions though. To eliminate free rangers, would a star san rinse be ok? I'm not sure that would be a good idea with bacteria. If not, I could try the encapsulation technique. Secondly, I'm assuming the best time to add them would be after primary? I'm thinking wait until the krausen falls and then add the beans. Sample every few days until desired tartness is achieved and then rack to secondary. Thoughts? I've never made a sour before. I tried one, liked the taste, but it was way too tart for me.

Interesting idea. I'd have some sterile water handy before the star san dip to plunge the beans into after the Starsan dip. I just don't know how quick the Starsan would permeate the beans. But if you killed all but the most interior bacteria this would only slow down the souring which would be good in your case.

Some of my reading though indicates the 'tame' stuff is different from the 'wild' stuff and eats most of the same sugars so that if you get them in too late you just don't get much sour.

 

[Accidic]

The bead batch was clean and firmly bitter, but not at all flavorless. At risk of oversimplifying, it tasted like perfectly competent California Pale Ale (minus the late hop character).

Pre-emptively let me point out two things... 1) This is a pretty awesome thread/experiment and 2) I haven't made it much past this particular post so if what I am about to ask is redundant and dumb I apologize but I didn't want to forget my question.

The above disclaimer stated, in the example batch you produced you used Calcium Chloride unless my recollection is failing me entirely. There are a few other Calcium based options (Calcium Lactate comes to mind). While I realize the bitter taste experienced with some of the items we made with Calcium Chloride was tethered to the consumption of the entire "bean," I kind of wonder if it could be the same type of bitterness you got above as a result of the components used. On the other hand, as you said, some flavor preferences might prefer that more bitter taste (was it perceived as hop bitterness when it was partially related to this for example). I'm certainly no chemist in any event by any means and only am roughly familiar with the process as I did it with the original type recipe when making food with the daughter and we didn't like the bitterness it created but after talking to the guy at the store we got the poweder, switching to the Lactate solution instead it eliminated most all of the bitter taste. I'm sure there are other options as well but that's the only one I know of.

 

[Accidic]

Oh, and the other question I meant to ask that I didn't spot in the thread so far... Do you let them further solidify before use or leave them not "turned" for lack of a better word on the inside portion or am I missing something?

 

[chipsmcghee]

Finding this thread is like the first time I touched a ****. Please keep us posted. Amazing!

 

[brant740]

Finding this thread is like the first time I touched a ****. Please keep us posted. Amazing!

Lol

 

[stromam]

If this works, I'm going back to my stir plate idea for primary fermentation since I won't have to fight the fallen yeast. Since I'm under positive pressure constantly, I wouldn't have the O2 going into the fermenting beer like in a starter to worry about and it would move the beer around the beads for greater yeast to beer contact. I'm in a Sanke so I plan on side wall stir bar agitation with a more spherical type of stir bar. My thoughts go to containing the beads in larger tea balls so they don't have any possibility of going into my dip tube when transferring to my serving keg.

One question that I am worrying about if this works: What about lagers? For ales floating beads is great since they are at the top, but what about bottom fermenting yeast strains? Would circulating via stir bar overcome this no matter the strain, or would you have to contain or sink the beads for lager?

Man this is a great experiment and I can't wait to see when tasting comes into the equation.

Someone may have answered this already, but it isn't the fact that lager strains sit on the bottom that make them lagers. They are just a different strain of yeast that ferment at lower temperature. That lower temperature fermentation means slower fermentation and the yeast cells don't get caught up as much in the rising CO2 so they tend to sit on the bottom. It really doesn't matter where the yeast is located in the wort.

In other words the "top fermenting"/"bottom fermenting" is only a function of temperature, you can use a lager yeast as a top fermenting if you crank up the temperature and an ale strain as a bottom fermenting if you turn it down, the strains have just been "optimized" to do one or the other.

 

[ox45]

First off, this is great! I am a mead maker by hobby, so I have decided to use this and another experiment utilizing ale yeasts in mead to try and find a quick turnaround mead recipe.
My question is since these immobilized yeast have already grown and multiplication is now stopped, would I still need to add nutrients to the must? I'm pretty sure the yeast utilizes the nutrients to multiply, so I'm assuming you would not need them?

 

[Accidic]

I thought they burned through some of the trace nutrients not just while multiplying but also while fermenting? Still an interesting idea though.

 

[MalFet]

First off, this is great! I am a mead maker by hobby, so I have decided to use this and another experiment utilizing ale yeasts in mead to try and find a quick turnaround mead recipe.
My question is since these immobilized yeast have already grown and multiplication is now stopped, would I still need to add nutrients to the must? I'm pretty sure the yeast utilizes the nutrients to multiply, so I'm assuming you would not need them?

Interesting question!

I'm not a mead-maker, but yeast need nutrients for more than just cell division. I'm not sure what they would or wouldn't be able to get from the honey.

 

[ox45]

Well honey is a great source of ferment-able sugars, but a terrible source of nutrients. So I decided to go ahead and put some in the must like I usually would.

So far I must say that this experiment is going incredibly well. I was worried at first since the yeast balls all floated on top and didn't seem fully submerged in the must. But the gravity readings are showing that this is working well!

I put the mead together on 6/26. It started with a OG of 1.087, and I made a slurry of about 300-350 billion cells of Trappist 3787 (due to another experiment on ale yeasts in mead). I measured this morning and the SG is now down to 1.016. This is an incredible rate for mead, much more so than my normal batches done the traditional way. It may be due to the fact that I probably overpitched with that many cells, but I do not taste any of the usual symptoms of overpitching.

I built a stir plate to try and move the must around, so that the beads are not just sitting stagnant on top. But my LHBS was out of stir bars so I had to order online. It looks like at this rate the mead may be done before that arrives! This could be huge for wine and mead makers since clearing can, and usually does, take weeks or months!

 

[MalFet]

Well honey is a great source of ferment-able sugars, but a terrible source of nutrients. So I decided to go ahead and put some in the must like I usually would.

So far I must say that this experiment is going incredibly well. I was worried at first since the yeast balls all floated on top and didn't seem fully submerged in the must. But the gravity readings are showing that this is working well!

I put the mead together on 6/26. It started with a OG of 1.087, and I made a slurry of about 300-350 billion cells of Trappist 3787 (due to another experiment on ale yeasts in mead). I measured this morning and the SG is now down to 1.016. This is an incredible rate for mead, much more so than my normal batches done the traditional way. It may be due to the fact that I probably overpitched with that many cells, but I do not taste any of the usual symptoms of overpitching.

I built a stir plate to try and move the must around, so that the beads are not just sitting stagnant on top. But my LHBS was out of stir bars so I had to order online. It looks like at this rate the mead may be done before that arrives! This could be huge for wine and mead makers since clearing can, and usually does, take weeks or months!

That's awesome!

I'm still a long way from decided on how useful this is for beer (or, more accurately, whether the flavor profile is undisturbed enough for the benefits to be worth it), but I'm thrilled that this is working so well for mead.

This should demonstrate my ignorance about meads, but anyway: is yeast character usually desirable in meads? Or do people typically go for clean ferments across the board?

 

[ox45]

The wine yeasts definitely do impart different flavors. For example some prefer to use something like D47 or KV1-1122 for a melomel (fruit mead), or EC-1118 for traditionals.

With the results I have seen so far, I absolutely plan on trying more experiments for other types. But for this one, I am looking strictly to find a way to make a traditional mead that is drinkable in the quickest time. Loveofrose did an experiment on gotmead.com using ale yeasts to see if they would be drinkable quicker than wine yeasts. It was found that the Trappist 3787 produced a very drinkable mead in the shortest time. My goal here is to produce something that is quaffable in a month or so while I wait the year for the regular meads to age.

The biggest bonus I can see with this method is that I can pull the beads out when the mead hits the sweetness level I want. The usual process I follow for meads is to let it dry out completely and let the yeast drop. I then rack and stabilize. Once I'm sure its stable, I will backsweeten with honey which clouds it up again. With this, I will customize the SG for the ABV and residual sweetness I want and just pull the beads. That way it will only have to clear the one time and I am drinking it quickly without the losses of multiple rackings.

 

[LandoAllen]

Has anyone tried this with cider yet to see if the cider can be left sweet once the beads are extracted?

 

[ox45]

Well disappointing news. I checked on the mead when I got home and there is what appears to be a layer of yeast on the bottom of the carboy. It's not much, but it shows that some yeast budded off and multiplied which means I can't just pull the beads to stop fermentation.

The pic looks worse than it is. That layer is really thin, but its still what appears to be active yeast. Now to figure out how to really trap the yeast in the balls.

One thing of note is the ferment speed. I'm wondering if the yeast in suspension do not realize the yeast encapsulated and therefore there is more yeast overall. I know a drop from 1.080 to 1.016 in a few days isn't too uncommon for beer, but it's pretty dramatic for mead/wine.

 

[brant740]

Did you clean the yeast balls before using them? Do you think there could have been some hitchhikers on the balls that caused the yeast cake?