Yeast Dilemma..Pitch both packs or just one?

[depper]

I am brewing my favorite Saison on Friday (OG 1.062, 6 gallon batch) and will be using Wyeast 3711. Here's my dilemma: I grabbed a 3711 at my LHBS and the "born on date" is 11/1/2015. Once I noticed this, I ordered another 3711 from a different LBHS and the "born on date" for that one is 1/4/2016. Both have very low viability left, to the point, where I can only make the starter so large, but not large enough to produce an accurate pitch rate. So my question is this:

Do I make a 2L starter with the "newest" 3711 and not mess with the "older one"? Or still make the starter and then add the "older one" in when I'm pitching the starter (so I don't waste it)? Or none of the above??

Any help is greatly appreciated!! FWIW, I plan on starting my starter this evening......

Tim

 

[Pie_Man]

yeastcalculator.com is your friend.

I pretty much always make a starter, although using 3711 you might get by without a starter. Also, some people like to underpitch their farmhouse/saison style beers (which I assume you are doing with 3711).

 

[depper]

yeastcalculator.com is your friend.

I pretty much always make a starter, although using 3711 you might get by without a starter. Also, some people like to underpitch their farmhouse/saison style beers (which I assume you are doing with 3711).

I use BeerSmith and I also used Mr. Malty for these calculations and they both said I can't get to the target amount with the "born on dates" being old. I am brewing the Cottage House Saison in the recipe section of HBT. I guess I could get it close with a starter, but then should I throw in the other pack when I pitch? That should get me closer.......maybe

 

[Homercidal]

I don't see where mrmalty has a place for whether the yeast was refrigerated or not. I think it may be a wild assumption that a vial packaged on November 1 of last year only has 10% viability if it were kept in the fridge.

There is an assumption that yeast dies off at a constant rate, but I don't know if that is true or not. I know I've used liquid yeast many months after expiration and it's worked. So it's not 100% dead. I'd guess that under ideal conditions some cells will be weaker and die off sooner. Some cells will be more hardy and last much, much longer.

Maybe the best thing is to take the older vial and create a starter and build it up a couple of times. Maybe do this with both combined if you aren't going to use both vials in a reasonable amount of time. And remember you are brewing a saison, so you might not want a TON of yeast in there either. I'd have to look it up, but I seem to remember that some people prefer to brew saison with some amount of underpitching.

 

[jcav]

I read in a Beersmith post that 4 month old yeast is like 41% viable, according to the post. Here is a link if you want to read it. Pretty good read I thought.....
http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/12/14/yeast-starters-for-home-brewing-beer-part-1/

Hope this helps,

John

 

[dharalson]

Make a start with the newest yeast. The yeast are very interested in reproducing. IMHO, most of the starter calculators are based on incorrect or possibly non-consistent assumptions.
The yeast package you have that used to have 100 billion cells started with only one cell on a petri dish.

The following is based on my memory and articles / research by Kai Troester, look at
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/11/03/estimating-yeast-growth/

Yeast growth is based on the amount of sugar (ie grams of DME) available to the yeast. The short answer is you will get about 1.5 Billion cells / gram of DME regardless of the number of cells at the start. So a 2 Liter 9P starter will finish with about 300 Billion Cells. The only issue is if you start with too few cells you might have issues with other organisms competing with your yeast.

David

 

[Pie_Man]

I use BeerSmith and I also used Mr. Malty for these calculations and they both said I can't get to the target amount with the "born on dates" being old. I am brewing the Cottage House Saison in the recipe section of HBT. I guess I could get it close with a starter, but then should I throw in the other pack when I pitch? That should get me closer.......maybe

Your yeast is not really that old. Using a two month old packet is pretty common.

I recommend using yeastcalculator, it's a better tool imo and allows for stepped up starters, so you could make a 2L starter, crash the yeast, decant the wort, and then another ~2L and yeastcalc will do the math for you.

YC estimates about 30 billion cells for the yeast pack from November and 51 billion in the yeast pack from January, so 81 billion total to start with.

If you want to use both packs in YC, uncheck the box that says "Calculate Viability From Date" and update the viability percentage to 81% (or set the initial cell count to 81 and viability to 100%). Go from there and you can get to your required pitch rate pretty easily, especially if you have a stir plate (I set YC to use the K.Troester Strip Plate option).

As mentioned previously, some people like to underpitch in saisons to obtain a particular flavor profile. You can use this as an opportunity to experiment with a 50% (or whatever) pitch of the recommended required cell count. Or, simply build up your starter according to yeastcalculator's estimates.

Cheers

 

[jcav]

Great advice on here from all who are chiming in. For what it's worth I'm brewing a lite blonde ale today for my daughter-in-law. I have some older 1056 yeast from November as well. I am making a 11 gallon batch and I made a 2 liter starter yesterday. A 1/4 teaspoon of yeast nutrient and 6 ounces (170 grams) of DME and the yeast took off overnight. The yeast starter will have plenty of cells for my batch. I got this Gordon Strong's book "Brewing Better Beer" awhile back and I've been doing it this way ever since. There are many correct ways to do this though. This is just one approach.

John

 

[depper]

Thanks to all for the great advice. I think I might try to under pitch this batch as an experiment. I'm already planning to ferment at a higher temp than I have in the past so maybe I'll try to under pitch too. Thanks again to all!!

Tim

 

[RM-MN]

Thanks to all for the great advice. I think I might try to under pitch this batch as an experiment. I'm already planning to ferment at a higher temp than I have in the past so maybe I'll try to under pitch too. Thanks again to all!!

Tim

Go ahead and underpitch but aerate well to encourage the yeast to propagate and you may never know that you underpitched. Your beer needs a certain number of cells to make the best beer but how you get to that number is mostly up to you.

 

[RM-MN]

I am brewing my favorite Saison on Friday (OG 1.062, 6 gallon batch) and will be using Wyeast 3711. Here's my dilemma: I grabbed a 3711 at my LHBS and the "born on date" is 11/1/2015. Once I noticed this, I ordered another 3711 from a different LBHS and the "born on date" for that one is 1/4/2016. Both have very low viability left, to the point, where I can only make the starter so large, but not large enough to produce an accurate pitch rate. So my question is this:

Do I make a 2L starter with the "newest" 3711 and not mess with the "older one"? Or still make the starter and then add the "older one" in when I'm pitching the starter (so I don't waste it)? Or none of the above??

Any help is greatly appreciated!! FWIW, I plan on starting my starter this evening......

Tim

There are a great number of people who believe in using Mr. Malty to determine the viability of the yeast based on its age but this study by Woodland Brews says differently, way differently. Check it out. http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2012/12/refrigeration-effects-on-yeast-viability.html

 

[depper]

There are a great number of people who believe in using Mr. Malty to determine the viability of the yeast based on its age but this study by Woodland Brews says differently, way differently. Check it out. http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2012/12/refrigeration-effects-on-yeast-viability.html

That's a great article. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Homercidal]

Just was listening to an Experimental Brewing podcast last night as I worked on the remodel project and someone referenced a White study that claimed a 50% viability after 6 months in the old vials, and a 65% viability in the new packaging.