Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison - they were right!

[tkone]

this yeast really isn't that unfriendly -- you just gotta give it the conditions that it likes -- someplace warm for them to really get going.

the flavor from this yeast is great -- it's the only one i'll use in my saisons

 

[Hermit]

this yeast really isn't that unfriendly -- you just gotta give it the conditions that it likes -- someplace warm for them to really get going.

the flavor from this yeast is great -- it's the only one i'll use in my saisons

New to brewing so I'll ask the obvious. Is this yeast worth the effort compared to the others available?

 

[deepsouth]

this yeast really isn't that unfriendly -- you just gotta give it the conditions that it likes -- someplace warm for them to really get going.

the flavor from this yeast is great -- it's the only one i'll use in my saisons

i totally get it. i gave it several weeks at 76 degrees to get down to 1.035 or 1.036. at the time it was wicked hot outside (temps in excess of 90 degrees) and i couldn't bring myself to kick up the thrermostat that high inside.

 

[kevmoron]

It looks like I'm in the same boat as others on this, with 3724...

I mashed 9 lbs of Castle Pilsner malt at 145 for 90 min (this one is a SMaSH), then 158 for 30. Added 1 pound of sucrose, and came out with an OG of 1.060.

Pitched a 1-liter starter at 85F, allowing the temperature to rise to 90. Fermentation took off like nothing I have ever seen.

I had a two-inch krausen within TWO HOURS of pitching.
4 hours, maximum Krausen at around 4 inches high.
9 hours, Krausen already going down a bit.
Went to bed, and 16 hours after pitching I see that the Krausen is almost totally gone and bubbles are coming once every 15 seconds (for the record, I have a thermowell and digital controller keeping everything at a rock solid, steady 90 F, so yes this is actually a decent indicator of CO2 evolution).
20 hours, and Krausen is totally gone. SG is at 1.040 (grrrr).

Looks like I'm in this for the long haul. I'm going to let the temp drop one degree each day to about 80 because I'm just a little freaked out about the prospect of up to six weeks on a yeast cake at 90 F.

 

[Montanaandy]

I took a gravity reading of the saison I brewed 2 weeks ago this past Fri. and it is stuck at 1.040 or so. This is the same reading that I took after 1 week.

I cannot up the temp in the water bath any higher than 81-82' that the saison has been at for the entire 2 weeks- I have it turned up as high as it will go.

I am wondering if I should wrap it in a couple of heating pads to get the temp higher and get the yeast going again. I have had good luck using heating pads to get yeasts that need temps in the 70's but I don't know how high I can go if I crank the heating pad(s).

Any suggestions?

Thanks, Montanaandy

 

[kevmoron]

It looks like I'm in the same boat as others on this, with 3724...

I mashed 9 lbs of Castle Pilsner malt at 145 for 90 min (this one is a SMaSH), then 158 for 30. Added 1 pound of sucrose, and came out with an OG of 1.060.

Pitched a 1-liter starter at 85F, allowing the temperature to rise to 90. Fermentation took off like nothing I have ever seen.

I had a two-inch krausen within TWO HOURS of pitching.
4 hours, maximum Krausen at around 4 inches high.
9 hours, Krausen already going down a bit.
Went to bed, and 16 hours after pitching I see that the Krausen is almost totally gone and bubbles are coming once every 15 seconds (for the record, I have a thermowell and digital controller keeping everything at a rock solid, steady 90 F, so yes this is actually a decent indicator of CO2 evolution).
20 hours, and Krausen is totally gone. SG is at 1.040 (grrrr).

Looks like I'm in this for the long haul. I'm going to let the temp drop one degree each day to about 80 because I'm just a little freaked out about the prospect of up to six weeks on a yeast cake at 90 F.

Just an FYI to follow up on the above - as I said the OG was 1.060 and it slowed sharply at 1.040. I let the thing go for 6 weeks and it finished at 1.002 (not a typo).

 

[passedpawn]

I took a gravity reading of the saison I brewed 2 weeks ago this past Fri. and it is stuck at 1.040 or so. This is the same reading that I took after 1 week.

I cannot up the temp in the water bath any higher than 81-82' that the saison has been at for the entire 2 weeks- I have it turned up as high as it will go.

I am wondering if I should wrap it in a couple of heating pads to get the temp higher and get the yeast going again. I have had good luck using heating pads to get yeasts that need temps in the 70's but I don't know how high I can go if I crank the heating pad(s).

Any suggestions?

Thanks, Montanaandy

Yea, you might consider dropping some 3711 if you can find some and let it finish the job.

 

[ChshreCat]

Or just leave it be and eventually it'll meander down to FG.

 

[Montanaandy]

Thanks guys. I think that I will monitor the activity in the BB and the temp for a spell and if it does not pick up I will hit it with some 3711 which I had hoped to use for another batch. Montanaandy

 

[artyboy]

I was just at a beer seminar tonight. The speaker was talking about saisons. He was talking about how some of his saisons ended up at over 90 degrees. What I gathered from the presentation was that when you do a "real" batch the thermal mass of the fermenting beer brings the temperature up naturally. It's harder to pull off with homebrew because there isn't enough mass in a 5 or 10 gallon fermenter. He also said that he likes to blend his yeasts to get his FG down to where they need to be. After trying some of his beers it became obvious that he knows what he's talking about.

 

[digr]

How are you heating the water bath?
I used small aquarium heaters.
I found in the winter I had to upgrade from a 50W to a 100W heater to keep the bath between 85-90'F.
You can even put two in as long as they both have semi-reliable thermostats.
Also, you really need to circulate the water to prevent hot spots.
I used a small submersible pump. worked like a charm.

However, it will likely still take 5-6 weeks. My last saison was at 85-90'F for 6 weeks but went from 1.069 to 1.006. However, it took a 2nd place in a local competition.

Someone else mentioned this, but adding a second yeast is an option.
If you can't find wy3711, you could try Safbrew / Fermentis T-58.
I've used that with 3724 to make same nice saisons.

Good luck.

 

[Montanaandy]

Digr - I assume that your question was directed at me/my post.

I am/was using a 200W aquarium heater in a 35 gal Rubbermaid container.
The highest I was able to get the water heated to was around 84'.
I did not have a pump in the waterbath but I had read conflicting advice about this (as to whether or not it made a difference) so chose not to use one.
I now have the Better Bottle wrapped in a heating blanket which is then wrapped in Reflextrix insulation. The stick on thermometer reads at the limit (84' if memory serves me correctly) and the fermentation has kicked in again.
It will be 3 weeks as of this Fri. so I know that I have a ways to go still. I was hoping to have dropped from 1.040-42 after 2 weeks but no such luck. Hopefully with the temp cranked back up the gravity will start to drop again.
I mail ordered a pack of 3711 and it is in the fridge. Looking forward to trying that in the next few weeks. Thanks, Montanaandy

 

[takahiro]

Hello
I have used the Wyeat 3724 three times in the past. Twice of these were the 1st generation (smack pack & starter) and they exhibited the typical "stall" behavior. In my most recent batch, I used the 2nd generation (washed 3724 which had gone through a complete fermentation). This one went down from 1051 to 1015 in 1 week.

It seems to me that the 2nd propagation definitely improved the yeast's ability to eat up the sugar more quickly. Also, this is briefly mentioned in the FHA.

Has anyone noticed this effect?

 

[Montanaandy]

Interesting that later washed generations of 3724 worked more quickly. I will keep that in mind if/when I decide whether it is worth washing the 3724 that I am using for another batch. Looking forward to trying 3711 and comparing the results to 3724. Montanaandy

 

[velcroboy]

Anybody have any advice about putting this in a secondary? Will I leave too much yeast behind for it to finish if I do? Will it generate some unwanted flavors if I leave it in the primary for too long.

It has been 2 weeks in the fermenter and is stuck at 1.030. Right now it is in the low 70's here, but it it supposed to reach 90 in about 3-4 days so I am hoping that will kick it back up.

 

[ChshreCat]

Leave it in primary until it finishes. You have no need to worry about autolysis unless you're planning on leaving it in primary until sometime in 2011, and even then it's a "maybe" depending on when it 2011 you plan on racking it.

 

[Montanaandy]

ChshreCat - once I hit terminal gravity should I transfer it to a secondary and allow it to age further or is it read to hit the keg once I hit terminal gravity. I thought that I read in Farmhouse Styles (or whatever it is called) that you transfer to a secondary for several weeks after you have hit terminal gravity.

I took (another) gravity reading and I am down to around 1.024 so I have dropped .018 since I put the heating pad around the Better Bottle along with some Reflextrix insulation. The BB is warm to the touch and the gravity is dropping although there is no activity in the airlock. Hopefully I will be down to terminal gravity after another week which will mark week 4. Patience, patience.

 

[ChshreCat]

That'd be all up to you. It might benefit from a little bulk aging before you keg and carb it, but then if you're kegging, it's still bulk aging if you don't drink it right away. Just remember that your terminal gravity might be lower than you expect, so even if it gets down where you think it should, give it a bit more time to make sure it's really done. My saison was good after about a month in fermenters and another month in the bottle, but it also aged VERY well. I still have a few bottles left from the batch I brewed last August and it's still fan-freakin'-tastic tasting.

I need it to warm up here soon so I can have another batch brewing when I drink the last bottle I have on hand so I don't cry while I'm drinking it. It'll be kind of like the end of Old Yeller... *pops open the bottle* I'm sorry boy... but I gotta do this *pours glass* *sniff* it's fer yer own good... *sniffle*sob*

 

[Montanaandy]

ChrsreCat - thanks for the tips.

Like the "Old Yeller" reference

 

[soontobepcv]

Throwing in the towel here - fairly certain that the gravity hasn't dropped much at all from 1.03 in the past two weeks, and that includes steady temps in the 80s and even a few in the 90-105 range! Going to make a starter of Wyeast 3787 (Trappist High Gravity) to finish 'er off and to start another batch with.

 

[Montanaandy]

I will be very happy if I reach 1.03 from where I am now (around 1.024 the last time I took a gravity reading). I have been giving the carboy a good shake (actually a BB with a tennis ball underneath to mix things up) and occassionally the airlock will bubble but for the most part nothing is going on. Smells great - kind of like fresh baked banana bread. I will test it this Fr. (5 weeks) and if I have not dropped much I will hit it with a pack of Notty. I do have a package of 3711 but I want to save that for another batch and want to harvest the yeast. Montanaandy

 

[soontobepcv]

Note that I'm at 1.030... still a ways to go.

I'd think that even wine yeast would be better - you want to get it bone dry, otherwise those saison yeast will eventually finish the job and mess with your carbonation, no?

 

[Montanaandy]

Ok so you are at 1.030 and not 1.003 - so you are in even worse shape than I am

I have read here (and on other boards) that many have been successful using Notty to finish it off/dry it out. I have an extra pack of Notty that I need to put to use before then end of the year so I will use it on the Saison/3724. Using 3711 would be the most optimal because it is a Saison specific yeast that reaches terminal gravity at lower temps and very fast.

Can't comment on wine yeast because I have never used it. I guess that it would work because it is believed that 3724 was somehow derrived from a wine yeast way back when and thus its preference for crazy high temps. Montanaandy

 

[jamest22]

Glad I read this. I have a saison with 10% corn sugar in the grist bill. I mashed at 147 degrees for 45 minutes, then ramped up to 155 for 25 minutes. I added Servomyces nutrient at the end of the boil. I pitched WLP 565 from a two quart starter, this yeast is also notorious for quiting around 1.025 from what I've read. Mine started at 1.056 and dropped to 1.012 after one week at 75 degrees ambient. That was great but then it stopped, no action in the past few days. I was thinking it had reached its terminal gravity but after reading all of this I am going to put it in my garage for the next week or so of 85-95 degree days and see if I can get that yeast to pick up again.

 

[soontobepcv]

Can't comment on wine yeast because I have never used it. I guess that it would work because it is believed that 3724 was somehow derrived from a wine yeast way back when and thus its preference for crazy high temps. Montanaandy

The wine yeast typically gets my meads *super* dry, though admittedly I have never used it on wort. I don't think it actually likes warm temps though - does Notty?

 

[Montanaandy]

The wine yeast typically gets my meads *super* dry, though admittedly I have never used it on wort. I don't think it actually likes warm temps though - does Notty?

Apparently does not mind it. Guess that we will find out if I don't hit terminal gravity when I take the next reading. Montanaandyh

 

[jamest22]

put mine out in the garage last night, its sitting at 1.012. Its supposed to reach a high of 95F today and tomorrow. We'll see if anything happens at these temps.

 

[Montanaandy]

[P]ut mine out in the garage last night, its sitting at 1.012. Its supposed to reach a high of 95F today and tomorrow. We'll see if anything happens at these temps."

Best of luck. Let us know how things turn out. Montanaandy

 

[meadowstream]

Anything risky about bottling this without additional yeast? After 7 weeks of primary fermentation, do you find that it still takes 4 weeks to bottle carbonate, or does it take longer?

 

[jamest22]

Glad I read this. I have a saison with 10% corn sugar in the grist bill. I mashed at 147 degrees for 45 minutes, then ramped up to 155 for 25 minutes. I added Servomyces nutrient at the end of the boil. I pitched WLP 565 from a two quart starter, this yeast is also notorious for quiting around 1.025 from what I've read. Mine started at 1.056 and dropped to 1.012 after one week at 75 degrees ambient. That was great but then it stopped, no action in the past few days. I was thinking it had reached its terminal gravity but after reading all of this I am going to put it in my garage for the next week or so of 85-95 degree days and see if I can get that yeast to pick up again.

put mine out in the garage last night, its sitting at 1.012. Its supposed to reach a high of 95F today and tomorrow. We'll see if anything happens at these temps.

Just an update. After 5 days at 90+ degrees in my garage with multiple rousings/stirrings of the yeast, nothing happened. WLP 565 didn't get going again. Gravity stayed steady at 1.012. So I made a small starter of Safbrew S-33 and pitched some of it into the Saison. It took the gravity down to 1.06 in a couple days. I bottled on Sunday and it tasted great.

FWIW, its the first time i'd used S-33. Its a beast of a yeast. I had seriously heavy starter activity with krausen within an hour to two. Seems like a great clean-up yeast for fruit/spicy beers as it has a very high alcohol tolerance and ferments ideally as low as 59 degrees: http://www.annapolishomebrew.com/Prodsheets/SafbrewS-33.pdf