Wyeast 3711 French Saison

[Upthewazzu]

What's your recipe?

3gal BIAB batch:

5lb pale
.75lb white wheat
.25lb Vienna
.25lb Munich 20L
.25lb Flaked Oats

60min: .75oz German Tradition
10min: .25oz Citra/.25oz Cascade
01min: .5oz Citra/.5oz Cascade

Mash @ 154

IBU: 32.5
SRM: 4.5
ABV: 5.9%
OG: 1.052
FG: 1.007 (18 days in primary, no secondary)
Keg @ 10psi

It's definitely growing on me the more I dive into this glass!

 

[rhys333]

3gal BIAB batch:

5lb pale
.75lb white wheat
.25lb Vienna
.25lb Munich 20L
.25lb Flaked Oats

60min: .75oz German Tradition
10min: .25oz Citra/.25oz Cascade
01min: .5oz Citra/.5oz Cascade

Mash @ 154

IBU: 32.5
SRM: 4.5
ABV: 5.9%
OG: 1.052
FG: 1.007 (18 days in primary, no secondary)
Keg @ 10psi

It's definitely growing on me the more I dive into this glass!

Traditional grain bill and American hopping... works well for 3711.

Do you find the mouthfeel a little on the heavy side? Some like that quality with 3711, but others find it a bit much. I like to dry it out with 5-7% table sugar.

 

[sweetcell]

Are there any Allagash beers that use this yeast (or similar, didn't try their saison)? I was there a couple months ago so I remember their stuff pretty well.

i'm pretty sure that allagash does not use french saison, so you're out of luck there if that is your only frame of reference.

any decent bottle shop should have a few (if not many) saisons for you to try.

 

[TravelingLight]

I've got my first saison in secondary now on raspberries. Not only was this my first saison, but my first time using 3711. Holy sheet people weren't lying about this thing chewing through everything. OG was 1.052. Sat in primary for three weeks (had stuff going on and couldn't get around to racking it over to the berries). Checked gravity when I racked to fruit and it was at 1.000 on the money. Never had a beer go this low before. Pretty excited.

 

[ron8]

I was not expecting a sour beer with this yeast. 2 consecutive batches turned out sour. Kegged first batch in April 2016. It's been getting more and more like vinegar from then up til I last tasted it in late July 2016.

I tasted the second last weekend, Oct 1st, 2016 when moving into keg. Mild sense of sourness.

Anyone have any ideas why my beer is sour? What I have read is only an infection would create this sour taste. Any other situations that would create sour flavor? Thanks for your advice!

Ron8

 

[ron8]

Clarification: this yeast is Wyeast 3711, I thought that would appear on my post as a subject header. Sorry!

 

[JordanKnudson]

I was not expecting a sour beer with this yeast. 2 consecutive batches turned out sour. Kegged first batch in April 2016. It's been getting more and more like vinegar from then up til I last tasted it in late July 2016.

I tasted the second last weekend, Oct 1st, 2016 when moving into keg. Mild sense of sourness.

Anyone have any ideas why my beer is sour? What I have read is only an infection would create this sour taste. Any other situations that would create sour flavor? Thanks for your advice!

Ron8

That is almost certainly an infection, particularly if the sourness is increasing over time. Time to give those kegs (and faucets) a hard clean, replace the O-rings and tap lines, and chase down any plastic equipment like buckets/tubing/racking canes/etc that you think might be at fault for harboring bacteria.

 

[Upthewazzu]

I was not expecting a sour beer with this yeast. 2 consecutive batches turned out sour. Kegged first batch in April 2016. It's been getting more and more like vinegar from then up til I last tasted it in late July 2016.

I tasted the second last weekend, Oct 1st, 2016 when moving into keg. Mild sense of sourness.

Anyone have any ideas why my beer is sour? What I have read is only an infection would create this sour taste. Any other situations that would create sour flavor? Thanks for your advice!

Ron8

It's not a sour yeast. If anything, it mellows over time. By the end of the keg (about a month) it kinda tasted like a BMC oddly enough.

 

[sweetcell]

I was not expecting a sour beer with this yeast. 2 consecutive batches turned out sour. Kegged first batch in April 2016. It's been getting more and more like vinegar from then up til I last tasted it in late July 2016.

I tasted the second last weekend, Oct 1st, 2016 when moving into keg. Mild sense of sourness.

Anyone have any ideas why my beer is sour? What I have read is only an infection would create this sour taste. Any other situations that would create sour flavor? Thanks for your advice!

Ron8

sounds like you might have an acetobacter infection. aceto doesn't need sugar, it lives off alcohol - and oxygen, so it's bizarre that it's doing anything inside a presumably carbonated keg. and it produces acetic acid, aka vinegar.

 

[armenianbrewer]

Does "standard" cleaning of fermentation vessels (glass or stainless) and "standard" post-cleaning sanitation remove majority of 3711? I just want to make sure I dont have to dedicate certain fermenters for belgian/saisons if it's hard to remove/clean 3711... would hate to have to segregate more equipment than I already do with sours!

 

[signpost]

Does "standard" cleaning of fermentation vessels (glass or stainless) and "standard" post-cleaning sanitation remove majority of 3711? I just want to make sure I dont have to dedicate certain fermenters for belgian/saisons if it's hard to remove/clean 3711... would hate to have to segregate more equipment than I already do with sours!

It is no different than any other brewer's yeast in that respect. No need to dedicate any equipment to exclusively 3711.

 

[rhys333]

Does "standard" cleaning of fermentation vessels (glass or stainless) and "standard" post-cleaning sanitation remove majority of 3711? I just want to make sure I dont have to dedicate certain fermenters for belgian/saisons if it's hard to remove/clean 3711... would hate to have to segregate more equipment than I already do with sours!

Your standard cleaning procedures are fine for 3711. Scrub clean and sanitize like after any other batch. I do take extra care refilling bottles after a 3711 batch (oxiclean every bottle) just to make sure there's no residual yeast in there that could potentially multiply and cause extreme bottle carbonation. Probably overkill though. I'm more concerned with powdery high attenuators like Kolsch strain that tend to cling to bottles. Anyway... you're fine!

 

[Nico93]

I've got a 1.122 ris fermented with wyeast 1p84 "stuck" at 1043(too sweet) , I'd like to dry it out a bit, I tried with a yeast cake of us05 and a high Krausen starter of notty without any change in gravity.
I though to brew a Saigon with this yeast and to pitch the ris on the yeast cake
Anyone does something like that?
I read on wyeast website that this yeast can used to finish out stuck fermentation...
So guys, do you think that can work?
The other choice is to use wlp099 but I'd like to use it as lash shot, the other time took my ris from 1130 to 1006 and I don't want a final gravity that low
Thanks

 

[signpost]

It's worth a shot. It definitely attenuates well.

 

[sweetcell]

I though to brew a Saigon with this yeast and to pitch the ris on the yeast cake
Anyone does something like that?
I read on wyeast website that this yeast can used to finish out stuck fermentation...
So guys, do you think that can work?
The other choice is to use wlp099 but I'd like to use it as lash shot, the other time took my ris from 1130 to 1006 and I don't want a final gravity that low
Thanks

i have used 3711 (belle saison) to complete a fermentation. if you think 099 will dry out a beer, wait 'til you see what 3711 will do. i certainly wouldn't brew an entire batch of saison and then pitch the RIS on the whole cake - it'll take it down to 1.000. when i used the french saison on a stuck DIPA, i ended up with a 13% beer.

so yes, it will work, but expect something very dry - unless you keep an eye on gravity, crash it when it gets to where you want, then then keep it cold in a keg.

 

[Nico93]

i have used 3711 (belle saison) to complete a fermentation. if you think 099 will dry out a beer, wait 'til you see what 3711 will do. i certainly wouldn't brew an entire batch of saison and then pitch the RIS on the whole cake - it'll take it down to 1.000. when i used the french saison on a stuck DIPA, i ended up with a 13% beer.

so yes, it will work, but expect something very dry - unless you keep an eye on gravity, crash it when it gets to where you want, then then keep it cold in a keg.

thanks, so you raccomandation is to make a starer and pitch it in the beer?
i thought to use the yeast cake because in my idea in this cases when fermentation restart, the fg doesn't change if i used a yeast cake or something else, and using a yeast cake i though to have more chances that yeast start to works in a already hard enviroment
i'm wrong according to your experience?

 

[sweetcell]

thanks, so you raccomandation is to make a starer and pitch it in the beer?

yes, get the yeast actively fermenting in a starter, then pitch the entire thing.

i thought to use the yeast cake because in my idea in this cases when fermentation restart, the fg doesn't change if i used a yeast cake or something else,

if i understand what you're saying, your thought is that since the original batch ended at an FG of X, then using that cake again will result in any other beer ending at X? because FG = X is some sort of a property of the yeast cake? if that is your belief, i'm pretty sure you're wrong. you will have a lot more cells in that cake then in the original pitch, so that will affect attenuation. also, beer #1 is not the same as beer #2 - conditions will be very different.

and using a yeast cake i though to have more chances that yeast start to works in a already hard enviroment
i'm wrong according to your experience?

using the whole cake might work. the potential problem is that the yeast in the cake are asleep and possibly beat up. they might not want to wake up, given that you'll be throwing them into another alcoholic enviro. but maybe they will.

if you want to brew a batch of saison first and then use the cake, you could make a starter out of some of the cake and pitch that.

 

[Nico93]

thanks, i will try to make a one liter starter and pitch it at high krausen

regarding part twho of my post, excuse me but i'm sick and i'm a little bit stunned

i was trying to say that in my vision, if i pitch my stuck beer on a yeast cake or i pitch a high krausen starter in my stuck beer,(in both cases with the same yeast) in the case that the yeast start to drying out my beer, the both results in the same fg (not exactly the same but more or less the same)

 

[LostBoyScout]

thanks, i will try to make a one liter starter and pitch it at high krausen

regarding part twho of my post, excuse me but i'm sick and i'm a little bit stunned

i was trying to say that in my vision, if i pitch my stuck beer on a yeast cake or i pitch a high krausen starter in my stuck beer,(in both cases with the same yeast) in the case that the yeast start to drying out my beer, the both results in the same fg (not exactly the same but more or less the same)

Personally I'd make a big WY1728 starter and pitch that into the stuck RIS and hope it gets going. 1728 can get up to about 13% if it's healthy enough and won't over-dry the beer.

Back on topic - I really enjoy making saisons and have tried a number of yeasts now. While 3711 isn't as exciting as a few other options and is a bit limited in its profile, it sure is a reliable yeast. I really like it for hoppy saisons and I really like it for beers I'm going to secondary with brett or a mixed culture.

 

[Nico93]

I already tried with a cake of US05 and a high Krausen starter of notty without any significant gravity change, i think i need a more attenuative yeast than in 1728;
i used it in all my ris except this, always got something like 70% attenuation, this time i'd like to reach a higher attenuation

 

[Kiichi]

Think the Brewstrong crew recommended lager yeast to finish out beers that have too high and FG, iirc.

 

[Nico93]

I also listened that podcast but I think that the alcohol tolerance of 34/70 (the strain I've got on hands) isn't enough

 

[brewstergalVT]

This 3711 yeast has me intrigued but I'm wondering if anyone can give me more specifics about the spicy character the yeast gives off fermented on the cooler end vs. the warmer end. Are you getting black pepper, spicy as in those generic spicy jellybeans at Easter, cloves or just more unpleasant medicinal phenols, like listerine and at what ferment temperature are you getting that specific flavor?

I've been using WLP566 and have been very happy with that yeast when fermented on the cool end (high 60's) as I get citrus and light pepper but when I've fermented that yeast warm (above 70) I get bubblegum, maybe some light juicy fruit and cloves-none of which I like. So I'm wondering if this yeast does a similar thing.

Also, it sounds like almost everyone is getting just citrus no matter the temperature with 3711, but maybe I'm wrong. Is anyone getting bubblegum, juicy fruit or other fruits with higher temperatures (or maybe with low temperatures)?

 

[flars]

I've gotten the best spicy/peppery flavor from this yeast keeping the fermentation temperature between 64° and 68°F. No ramping up of the temperature near the end of the fermentation.

 

[Nico93]

I also listened that podcast but I think that the alcohol tolerance of 34/70 (the strain I've got on hands) isn't enough

I update my situation, may can be useful to someone in the future.
For time missing, I threw my ris (1122) directly in the yeast cake of a 1050 saison
Now after three week is down to 1021 from 1043 (where it was stuck). Now I think is finished, may can eat another point or two

 

[TravelingLight]

Anyone have any experience using 3711 in lower ph environments? In the margarita gose thread, someone was kicking around the idea of using 3711 (instead of 05) for fermentation (after souring, i.e., kettle soured). US-05 works fine in the more acidic environment. Curious if 3711 can handle a lower ph as well. Would be interesting to really dry the hell out of the gose.

 

[sweetcell]

Anyone have any experience using 3711 in lower ph environments? In the margarita gose thread, someone was kicking around the idea of using 3711 (instead of 05) for fermentation (after souring, i.e., kettle soured). US-05 works fine in the more acidic environment. Curious if 3711 can handle a lower ph as well. Would be interesting to really dry the hell out of the gose.

i haven't tried, but i suspect 3711 would be a good choice for low pH. just a hunch, but i doubt that low pH will stop it.

there is some research that claims saison yeast is a mutation of a wine yeast. wine pH is lower than beer, typically in the same range as sours, so to my mind this further bolsters the case for saison yeasts doing well in pre-soured wort.

if you do try, please let us know how it went!

 

[TravelingLight]

i haven't tried, but i suspect 3711 would be a good choice for low pH. just a hunch, but i doubt that low pH will stop it.

there is some research that claims saison yeast is a mutation of a wine yeast. wine pH is lower than beer, typically in the same range as sours, so to my mind this further bolsters the case for saison yeasts doing well in pre-soured wort.

if you do try, please let us know how it went!

Good call. Thanks for the insight. I plan to do this in the next couple months. I'll definitely check back with results.

 

[tellyho]

Phenol- and flavor-wise, I've experienced the opposite of flars. Fermentation at 62-64 for me produced very hefeweizen-y flavors. I get the spice at high temps, with few other flavors. I've actually moved on from 3711 as my main saison yeast, looking for a broader flavor spectrum.

 

[Mainer]

This 3711 yeast has me intrigued but I'm wondering if anyone can give me more specifics about the spicy character the yeast gives off fermented on the cooler end vs. the warmer end. Are you getting black pepper, spicy as in those generic spicy jellybeans at Easter, cloves or just more unpleasant medicinal phenols, like listerine and at what ferment temperature are you getting that specific flavor?

I've been using WLP566 and have been very happy with that yeast when fermented on the cool end (high 60's) as I get citrus and light pepper but when I've fermented that yeast warm (above 70) I get bubblegum, maybe some light juicy fruit and cloves-none of which I like. So I'm wondering if this yeast does a similar thing.

Also, it sounds like almost everyone is getting just citrus no matter the temperature with 3711, but maybe I'm wrong. Is anyone getting bubblegum, juicy fruit or other fruits with higher temperatures (or maybe with low temperatures)?

I get black pepper and white pepper. Maybe a small amount of allspice or nutmeg.