Wyeast 3068 -- Yeast Starter

[wesasmith]

Hey HBT,

tomorrow afternoon im brewing my first Wheat beer, and today i made up a 2L starter using Wyeast 3068. Ive made multiple starters in the past, but never worked with German Yeast Strands.

I pitched the starter in an about 70 degree yeast starter, at about 2:45 this afternoon on a stir plate. Its 1145 now and I've seen zero signs of yeast activity, no krausen, or anything.

the yeast was dated 12-13-2013, and today is 2-22-14, could this be the reason my yeast is not very active?

 

[wesasmith]

oh, and do you recomend i pick up a second pack at my LHB store tomorrow if i dont see any action by morning?

 

[Biergarden]

Give it time. The yeast cells are busy dividing and will begin metabolizing your starter soon. Promise

 

[titansvol]

+1 give it some time


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[kal]

Definitely wait.

FWIW, some will underpitch this yeast purposely to push ester formation (more of the banana/clove flavour that the beer is known for).

Kal

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'm one of those that are big on controlled underpitching with this yeast, although it will increase the banana, and not as much the clove. I do a combination of underpitching (I usually target ~0.4-0.5 million cells per milliliter per °Plato) and fermenting cold. With that yeast, warmer temperatures emphasize the banana esters, and cooler temperatures emphasize the clove phenol. If you underpitch and ferment warm, you'll get too much banana. If you overpitch and ferment too cold, you'll get no banana. I find that pitching rate and fermented around 62° gives me a great balance of both.

As far as the starter, I don't know what OG is you're aiming for, but with yeast that old I would have made a starter, but probably not that big. So I'd definitely be on the warmer side if I were you, or you'll been in the "no banana" department. Older yeast will take a little longer to get active, so just give it time.

 

[Biergarden]

I'm one of those that are big on controlled underpitching with this yeast, although it will increase the banana, and not as much the clove. I do a combination of underpitching (I usually target ~0.4-0.5 million cells per milliliter per °Plato) and fermenting cold. With that yeast, warmer temperatures emphasize the banana esters, and cooler temperatures emphasize the clove phenol. If you underpitch and ferment warm, you'll get too much banana. If you overpitch and ferment too cold, you'll get no banana. I find that pitching rate and fermented around 62° gives me a great balance of both.

As far as the starter, I don't know what OG is you're aiming for, but with yeast that old I would have made a starter, but probably not that big. So I'd definitely be on the warmer side if I were you, or you'll been in the "no banana" department. Older yeast will take a little longer to get active, so just give it time.

I've never heard of under pitching before to change the characteristics of the esters. I failed my last wheat beer, but want to get back in the saddle again. My problem, I think, was goofing and letting the mash get way out of control and ended up mashing at 160f. I was very disappointed in myself.
Would you share your resource on under pitching and it's affect on ester production?

 

[Qhrumphf]

They discuss it in the book "Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation" by Jamil Zainasheff and Chris White. However, it's pretty common knowledge that pitch rate, like temperature, can be adjusted to alter the flavor profile given by the yeast. Its why many homebrewers initial beers are too estery. Underpitched and fermented too warm.

Many pro brewers are able to coax multiple flavor profiles out of one yeast this way. Although not all experts agree it's a good idea (JZ is one of those who says he doesn't recommend it), since there are potential drawbacks, especially if it's taken too far (too much esters for one, but also underattenuation, and so on). Since yeast are more forgiving of overpitching than underpitching, it's safer to keep a higher pitch rate and up the temp. However, I find it easier with my set up I have a hard time getting the esters I want out of English, Weizen, and Belgian beers at the 0.75 million cells per mL per °Plato standard Ale rate (the rate that Mr. Malty calculations are based off of), and with my swamp cooler set up I have a hard time keeping my fermentations at the upper end of the yeast strains' ranges without going too high, so I reduce the pitch rate and drop the temp down to a more middle range temp to get the character that I want.

Also worth nothing that this doesn't mean you don't have to pay attention to pitching rate. I still make starters for just about everything, they're just slightly smaller for yeast-forward beers than they would be in other styles.

As far as German weizen beers, this is a good article on them: https://byo.com/stories/beer-styles/item/2265-german-hefeweizen-style-profile

 

[wesasmith]

Quick update, by 730 this morning the yeast was metabolizing. Just mashed in, and will attempt my first decoction mash, wish me luck.

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[tally350z]

Made a starter with the same strain 4 days ago and it had very little activity. I made a hefe using decoction mashing and had explosive activity in the carboy after only 4 hours.

 

[Biergarden]

They discuss it in the book "Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation" by Jamil Zainasheff and Chris White. However, it's pretty common knowledge that pitch rate, like temperature, can be adjusted to alter the flavor profile given by the yeast. Its why many homebrewers initial beers are too estery. Underpitched and fermented too warm.

Many pro brewers are able to coax multiple flavor profiles out of one yeast this way. Although not all experts agree it's a good idea (JZ is one of those who says he doesn't recommend it), since there are potential drawbacks, especially if it's taken too far (too much esters for one, but also underattenuation, and so on). Since yeast are more forgiving of overpitching than underpitching, it's safer to keep a higher pitch rate and up the temp. However, I find it easier with my set up I have a hard time getting the esters I want out of English, Weizen, and Belgian beers at the 0.75 million cells per mL per °Plato standard Ale rate (the rate that Mr. Malty calculations are based off of), and with my swamp cooler set up I have a hard time keeping my fermentations at the upper end of the yeast strains' ranges without going too high, so I reduce the pitch rate and drop the temp down to a more middle range temp to get the character that I want.

Also worth nothing that this doesn't mean you don't have to pay attention to pitching rate. I still make starters for just about everything, they're just slightly smaller for yeast-forward beers than they would be in other styles.

As far as German weizen beers, this is a good article on them: https://byo.com/stories/beer-styles/item/2265-german-hefeweizen-style-profile

Thanks for the link. The decoction mash is something I should have done, but I went into it too blindly. I'll give it another go with 50/50 this time. What do you think about using a very small addition of a hop like cascade or citra? It might make it interesting instead of a usual noble hop.

 

[Qhrumphf]

My go-to Weizen profile is about 55% wheat, 45% barley (the exact compositions within can vary, but my Hefeweizen is about 45% German pils malt, 45% wheat malt, and 10% flaked wheat). I do a multi-step decoction mash, starting with 45 minutes at 110°, decoction up to 130° and then as soon as it hits temp, second decoction up conversion rest, 153° for most Weizens and 150°F for Weizenbock, and held for 60 mins, and then third decoction up to 168°. I do a single noble hop bittering charge. American hops would definitely be unusual, and would certainly be interesting, but not something I'd go for personally. And then I pitch and ferment like I said earlier.

 

[orangehero]

I'm one of those that are big on controlled underpitching with this yeast, although it will increase the banana, and not as much the clove. I do a combination of underpitching (I usually target ~0.4-0.5 million cells per milliliter per °Plato) and fermenting cold. With that yeast, warmer temperatures emphasize the banana esters, and cooler temperatures emphasize the clove phenol. If you underpitch and ferment warm, you'll get too much banana. If you overpitch and ferment too cold, you'll get no banana. I find that pitching rate and fermented around 62° gives me a great balance of both.

As far as the starter, I don't know what OG is you're aiming for, but with yeast that old I would have made a starter, but probably not that big. So I'd definitely be on the warmer side if I were you, or you'll been in the "no banana" department. Older yeast will take a little longer to get active, so just give it time.

How much aeration/oxygenation do you recommend?

 

[Qhrumphf]

I reduce aeration slightly, but not much. Instead of 60 seconds pure O2 I'd probably go 45 seconds.

 

[orangehero]

I reduce aeration slightly, but not much. Instead of 60 seconds pure O2 I'd probably go 45 seconds.

Any thoughts on pitching at 60°F, maintaining 62°F for 3 days, then gradual ramp to 68°F over the course of 5 days to finish it off?

 

[Qhrumphf]

I'd think that ought to work well.