WY1968 London ESB starter

[Rob2010SS]

Hey peeps. 2 part question for you here...

1. My starter looks very chunky. I think I've read somewhere that this can be normal. Is this what this yeast is supposed to look like? It's a bit blurry but I think you can see what I'm talking about... I haven't used this yeast before...

2. At what point is it safe to throw this in the fridge and chill it with my brew day being Sunday? What I mean is, how long can it sit in the fridge before I harm the yeast? Can I throw it in the fridge tonight and still have mostly viable yeast for Sunday or should I wait until tomorrow night? This starter just went faster than I planned on...

Thanks.

 

[ba-brewer]

1968 is a heavy flocculator, I have had it stop the stir bar before.

I have had to delay a brew a week or more and have good success with starter sitting in the fridge for that long.

I normally allow the yeast to sit at room for 6 to 12 hours off the stir plate to allow the yeast to build up reserves before putting into the fridge. Most yeast have pretty much cleared on their own before they hit the fridge.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yup, totally normal for 1968 to look like egg drop soup.
It may not be quite finished, there's some foam on top, but it's getting there.

1968 is a super fast crasher. 24 hours in the fridge should get you clear beer on top and a yeast layer on the bottom to be proud of.
I'd give it overnight and stick in the fridge tomorrow morning. It should become a lot thicker with lots of precipitation, enough to slow down or even stall your stir bar. That gives it an extra 12 hours of growing plus 2 days of crashing.

Yeast can be stored in a fridge for several months, a year even. But viable cell count goes down (see a yeast calculator). After sitting there for a month to 6 weeks maybe best to make a vitality starter to revitalize it. After 2 months definitely make a new starter.

Are you going to save some out for a next time? You should. Save out about 50-100 billion cells (that's 50-100% of what's in a fresh smack pack) to make a fresh starter from next time. Store in a small mason jar or jelly jar.

 

[IslandLizard]

I normally allow the yeast to sit at room for 6 to 12 hours off the stir plate to allow the yeast to build up reserves before putting into the fridge.

I don't recall ever hearing or reading that before. Where did you get that from?

 

[IslandLizard]

I just noticed, that's a 5 liter flask!

Is that 3 liters of starter? Did you use one pack?

Does it fit in your fridge?

 

[ba-brewer]

I don't recall ever hearing or reading that before. Where did you get that from?

I would need to find the page again but the idea came from the yeast book. It was not mentioned for a starter but it was in the propagation section of the book and it seemed like it would apply to starters too so that is why I do it.

edit: page 138 middle of the first paragraph

 

[Rob2010SS]

I just noticed, that's a 5 liter flask!

Is that 3 liters? Did you use one pack?

Does it fit in your fridge?

Lol probably not. I may have to use the kegerator since i have no full kegs. I do have a place to crash it though, one way or another.

That's 4 liters actually, stepped up from 1.5 liters, originally from 1 smack pack.

I wasn't planning on saving any on this one. I have done that with other starters but not on this one.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I would need to find the page again but the idea came from the yeast book. It was not mentioned for a starter but it was in the propagation section of the book and it seemed like it would apply to starters too so that is why I do it.

edit: page 138 middle of the first paragraph

pics or it didn't happen

 

[IslandLizard]

Lol probably not. I may have to use the kegerator since i have no full kegs. I do have a place to crash it though, one way or another.

That's 4 liters actually, stepped up from 1.5 liters, originally from 1 smack pack.

I wasn't planning on saving any on this one. I have done that with other starters but not on this one.

Fermentation fridge or kegerator will work very fine for cold crashing!

I would need to take out a shelf to fit a 5 liter flask in my kitchen fridge, which causes more problems than it solves. So I use 2, 2 liter flasks, they both fit on the gallon "milk shelf" in the door, or use 2, 1/2 gallon pickle jars. since they fit better on the top shelf. I can even put 6 of them on there, and still have space left. My 2 liter flasks do not fit the top shelf by 1/4 inch. Bad design!

How big a batch are you pitching this in? You must have 600-800 billion cells by the time this is done. Enough for 10-15 gallons.

 

[IslandLizard]

I would need to find the page again but the idea came from the yeast book. It was not mentioned for a starter but it was in the propagation section of the book and it seemed like it would apply to starters too so that is why I do it.

edit: page 138 middle of the first paragraph

Thanks for finding that relevant passage!
From Yeast: the practical guide to beer fermentation (2010, Chris White with Jamil Zainasheff):

Storing the yeast in the same vessel for an additional eight to 12 hours after they reach terminal gravity allows them to build up their glycogen reserves.... Allow the starter propagation to complete the fermentation cycle before decanting.

Although it's been quite a few years I read it, I'm very familiar with that section. I must have never mentally isolated that 8-12 hours "rest period" from the starter process. I typically stir much longer than 24 hours, I wait for the color change, the starter to become notably lighter in color due to a large yeast population in suspension. 48-72 hours (2-3 days) is much more common, even a week (or 2 if so needed) when the yeast is old, to allow the yeast ample time to grow, use up as much of the wort as it can. I hope that includes enough time to allow for that 8-12 hour "rest period" before I stick it in the fridge to cold crash.

Definitely something to keep in mind, especially for those who are always in a hurry. Don't stick it in the fridge too soon!

What's perhaps even more remarkable is the book doesn't mention cold crashing yeast starters (in the fridge) at all. This is all they basically say about it:

Some brewers wait until the yeast consume all the starter wort sugars and settle out of solution before pitching. They decant the spent wort and pitch just the yeast into their batch of beer. This is particularly advantageous when using large starters subjected to continuous aeration or the stir plate....

pics or it didn't happen

The quotes above will have to suffice... I only have the eBook version.

 

[jcav]

Thought I'd chime in. Every time I make a starter with this yeast it clumps up and tries to flocc out even as the stir plate is spinning as it finishes. Just finished a starter with this yeast for tomorrow and it looks like thick egg drop soup with amber liquid above the chunks.. When I turn off my stir plate it all clumps to the bottom and it is a thick slurry of beautiful yeast. I put mine in the fridge to continue to make it flocc out and I will decant and just pitch the yeast slurry into my wort tomorrow. Great yeast and it is a little fruity and lets the malt come through nicely.

John

 

[Rob2010SS]

Fermentation fridge or kegerator will work very fine for cold crashing!

I would need to take out a shelf to fit a 5 liter flask in my kitchen fridge, which causes more problems than it solves. So I use 2, 2 liter flasks, they both fit on the gallon "milk shelf" in the door, or use 2, 1/2 gallon pickle jars. since they fit better on the top shelf. I can even put 6 of them on there, and still have space left. My 2 liter flasks do not fit the top shelf by 1/4 inch. Bad design!

How big a batch are you pitching this in? You must have 600-800 billion cells by the time this is done. Enough for 10-15 gallons.

This is for a 6 gallon batch of 1.102 wort. The calculator said approx 845 billion cells. Someone in another thread recommended to pitch at lager rates on bigger beers like this. So that's how i built up this starter.

 

[IslandLizard]

This is for a 6 gallon batch of 1.102 wort. The calculator said approx 845 billion cells. Someone in another thread recommended to pitch at lager rates on bigger beers like this. So that's how i built up this starter.

That's a big beer and yup, needs a lot of yeast!

Don't forget to administer plenty of oxygen, twice!

 

[Rob2010SS]

That's a big beer and yup, needs a lot of yeast!

Don't forget to administer plenty of oxygen, twice!

Yep was planning on oxygenating pre pitch and 12 hours post pitch, 90 seconds each with pure o2.

I had problems with my first big stout not attenuating fully. I only pitched a couple packs of dry yeast in that and only oxygenated once. Trying to ensure i don't have that happen again

 

[ba-brewer]

pics or it didn't happen

Assuming your comment is actually in regard to my first post about the yeast stopping the stir bar.

No pics. I used to use mason jars for propagating and only spinning fast enough to just get a small dimple in the surface(Jamil recommendation from brew strong), so it might have had more to do with the speed and small diameter of the bottom than the actual yeast. At slower speeds yeast would start collect along the edge before the starter was completely done some times.

1968 will compact to a solid hockey puck, I once plugged the toilet with a old yeast slurry I dumped from the mason jar into the toilet. It was a 6 or 8oz solid block came out of the jar intact. Sorry no pics of that either.

 

[IslandLizard]

1968 will compact to a solid hockey puck

3522 settles into a rubber sheet!
Harvested with some fine trub and plenty of protein mixed in, a few weeks later it becomes like cement that's setting up.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Hmmm. 1968 and 3522 are two of my favourite yeasts. Maybe I like cement. Maybe I'm soft.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Alright. Got another question on this yeast.

I brewed my imperial stout that this was intended for and my efficiency was better than expected. Planned numbers had this at 9.8% ABV and actual numbers will put me at approximately 10.5% - 10.75% ABV. Wyeast says this yeast is good to 9%.

How strict are the ABV limits on yeast strains? Will they go higher occasionally? Can you plan on it going higher?

My starter was 4L, 840B cells according to calculator. I aerated for 90 seconds pre pitch and will aerate again approximately 14 hours post pitch.

 

[IslandLizard]

Wow, during all this enthusiasm about your huge 800+ billion cells eggdrop starter we forgot to keep the target in mind.

Let's get in touch with reality:
ESB is a fast and high flocculator, a low attenuator (67-71%) with an ABV ceiling of around 9%.
It was "designed" for ESBs, medium gravity (<1.060), lowish alcohol beer with a good residual body and some sweetness.

What is that going to do with your ~1.110 wort?
At best, with 71% attenuation you'll end up with an FG of 0.030. That's very acceptable for a RIS. Alcohol would be around 10.5% at that point.
But the yeast may stall before reaching that point, due to alcohol poisoning at around 9% with an FG of around 1.041, 10 points sweeter than the target.
Attenuation would be only at 61% then. It is possible to coax her beyond that point, depending on a few factors. Good wort oxygenation (twice) definitely helps with that.

Keep temps as low (~66F) and stable as you can. Once you start to reach 1.060 start raising the temps gradually by 1°F per day or per 2 days. Never to let them drop or premature flocculation may occur.

What is your fermentation vessel?

 

[Rob2010SS]

Wow, during all this enthusiasm about your huge 800+ billion cells eggdrop starter we forgot to keep the target in mind.

Let's get in touch with reality:
ESB is a fast and high flocculator, a low attenuator (67-71%) with an ABV ceiling of around 9%.
It was "designed" for ESBs, medium gravity (<1.060), lowish alcohol beer with a good residual body and some sweetness.

What is that going to do with your ~1.110 wort?
At best, with 71% attenuation you'll end up with an FG of 0.030. That's very acceptable for a RIS. Alcohol would be around 10.5% at that point.
But the yeast may stall before reaching that point, due to alcohol poisoning at around 9% with an FG of around 1.041, 10 points sweeter than the target.
Attenuation would be only at 61% then. It is possible to coax her beyond that point, depending on a few factors. Good wort oxygenation (twice) definitely helps with that.

Keep temps as low (~66F) and stable as you can. Once you start to reach 1.060 start raising the temps gradually by 1°F per day or per 2 days. Never to let them drop or premature flocculation may occur.

What is your fermentation vessel?

It's at 65-66 right now and it's already dropped 10 points since pitching at 4pm today (6.5 hours later).

It's fermenting in a standard carboy.

I get up at 6am so i'll oxygenate again at that time. That'll be about 14 hours post pitch. Do i do another full 90 seconds of oxygen or lower it to 45-60 seconds?

 

[IslandLizard]

For high gravity beers, re-oxygenating between 12 and 18 hours after pitching still seems to be the consensus. Some claim to have kraused already after 12 hours, and still give it another dose of O2. The reasoning is to wait until the first complete cell division has taken place, which is 12-18 hours after pitching. That will allow them to build sterols to strengthen their cell wall for the initial high gravity and when alcohol levels increase.

Although it isn't deemed safe adding more oxygen when gravity has already dropped (alcohol is present), as you risk oxidation, it is being claimed that the yeast will absorb the O2 rapidly, before oxidation occurs. So I'd say go ahead, re-oxygenate after 12-18 hours, just enough, don't overdo it.
1 l/min for 90 seconds or better yet, 1/2 l/min for 2 minutes should do it (less rippling, thus potentially more uptake than 1 l/min). The rate I use is 1/4 l/min for 4 minutes. I do move the wand around slowly, stone on the bottom.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Alright, this did not go as intended.

I do not have a flow gauge for my oxygen tank/stone. The way I've always dosed with oxygen is to stick the stone in the carboy and put the stone against the side wall of the carboy. I open the oxygen tank until I start to see bubbles and then I go another 1/4 - 1/2 turn on the regulator. Seems to have always worked fine.

I attempted to do it this morning and boy did it make a mess. As soon as oxygen started flowing, krausen and foam overflowed everywhere. Needless to say, I stopped as it made a mess in my ferm freezer.

I think I've missed the boat on double dosing with oxygen on this one. The next opportunity I'll have will be at 19 hours post pitch. The fact that it's already dropped to 1.086 from 1.110, perhaps that would be too risky to oxygenate at that point? Even if it's not, I don't know how to do it without making a mess in my ferm freezer...

 

[IslandLizard]

Oops, sorry about the mess! It needs a larger headspace.

I'm surprised it's at 1.086 already after 12-14 hours. That's moving awfully fast!
You sure it's at 66F inside the carboy?
Did you take hydrometer readings?

Don't add anymore O2, let it be. I'm guessing the yeast is pretty happy and healthy in there.

The valves for those disposables are finicky, they don't give you much control or indication of flow rate.

You "could" measure flow rate using a transparent quart-size cup (e.g., a takeout container) with 0.1 liter markings added, upside down in a tub of water. Stone all the way up in there. Then note level (gas volume) after 15, 30, 45, and 60 seconds and mark the knob (or keep a note) on how far you opened the valve.

If you see any rippling on the surface, that's O2 that didn't get dissolved, and is wasted. The deeper the vessel and the stone, the more time the rising O2 bubbles have to dissolve.
Now you could also capture and measure that gas escaping from the rippling in a similar way, and subtract that from the total amount added (as measured previously). That will give you a more precise idea of how much O2 actually did get dissolved. That would be your actual DO level, without springing for a $300+ DO meter.

Then things may change a little when used in wort of 1.xxx gravity vs. plain water...

Or just wing it, like most of us do. :rockin:

FWIW, I get very little rippling at 1/8 l/min on my flow regulator. It goes down all the way down to 1/32 l/m, but who's gonna wait for 32 minutes? 8 minutes feels like an eternity already.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Oops, sorry about the mess! It needs a larger headspace.

I'm surprised it's at 1.086 already after 12-14 hours. That's moving awfully fast!
You sure it's at 66F inside the carboy?
Did you take hydrometer readings?

Don't add anymore O2, let it be. I'm guessing the yeast is pretty happy and healthy in there.

The valves for those disposables are finicky, they don't give you much control or indication of flow rate.

You "could" measure flow rate using a transparent quart-size cup (e.g., a takeout container) with 0.1 liter markings added, upside down in a tub of water. Stone all the way up in there. Then note level (gas volume) after 15, 30, 45, and 60 seconds and mark the knob (or keep a note) on how far you opened the valve.

If you see any rippling on the surface, that's O2 that didn't get dissolved, and is wasted. The deeper the vessel and the stone, the more time the rising O2 bubbles have to dissolve.
Now you could also capture and measure that gas escaping from the rippling in a similar way, and subtract that from the total amount added (as measured previously). That will give you a more precise idea of how much O2 actually did get dissolved. That would be your actual DO level, without springing for a $300+ DO meter.

Then things may change a little when used in wort of 1.xxx gravity vs. plain water...

Or just wing it, like most of us do. :rockin:

FWIW, I get very little rippling at 1/8 l/min on my flow regulator. It goes down all the way down to 1/32 l/m, but who's gonna wait for 32 minutes? 8 minutes feels like an eternity already.

No worries. It was a learning experience! Hahaha. There's not much head space in there at all. Maybe half a gallon? Pic below...

I'm pretty sure temp is ok. Tilt is now reading 66*F and matches the InkBird probe at 66*F. It took them a bit but they did stabilize with each other.

I did not take hydrometer readings. It's possible the tilt is off. I calibrated in water and then when I dropped it in carboy, it read 1.093 and I added another calibration point to get it up to the 1.110.

Trust me, I'm just as surprised as you are. That thing had krausen on it 5 hours after pitching! That's when the pic below was taken. I did pitch a crap load of yeast, maybe that's why it's moving so fast?

 

[Rob2010SS]

So is there yeast in the krausen? Even since my over flow this morning and all the foam that came out, fermentation has stopped/slowed and just wondering if I lost a bunch of the yeast or if I shocked them?

 

[IslandLizard]

Yup, there's a lot of yeast in the krausen. But there's tons left suspended in the liquid too, it will come back.
That temp dip for nearly 6 hours could have something to do with lesser activity too. Just try to keep at 66-67 as it is now.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yeah I changed the inkbird setting when I saw it was at 69*F, and then it dropped too low. The inkbird was set to 64 and the tilt showed it dropped to 62. As soon as I noticed I brought it back up. I'm not too worried. It hasn't even been 24 hours yet, was just curious.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I'm going to be a millionaire!!!! I've discovered a yeast strain that puts sugar back into the beer!!! That's the only logical explanation for this... (or something is f'ed up lol)

 

[ba-brewer]

I recall reading something about tilts having issues with krausen or maybe it was CO2 bubbles.

As 1968 can flocculate early you might try gently rousing the fermentor to keep it working as the added O2 seemed to not work so well.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yeah, that's my guess. I'm guessing that it's getting going again after my mishap with the oxygen this morning slowed it down and that the tilt is getting more and more horizontal from the krausen. At least, that's what I'm hoping it is. We'll see when I get home!

I know it doesn't make sense but I've been picturing that the krausen pushed the tilt into my blowoff tube, clogged the tube and shot it out and the tilt is laying horizontal in the ferm freezer! hahahahaha.

 

[ba-brewer]

I use a pipette and refractometer to check fermentation progression, no graphs but I sleep well.

Someone mentioned WY3522, that yeast makes a very thick sour cream like krausen and has launched a airlock or two on me. I could imagine that one getting your tilt horizontal for some krausen surfing.
​

 

[Rob2010SS]

Fermentation just definitely picked up speed is what happened. I don't think it was REALLY fermenting yet prior to this. I think the drop in gravity i was seeing was a false read. This pic is after the initial cleanup. I swapped out blow off jars and within minutes, this one was already brown. Seems to be fine now

 

[couchsending]

1968/002 is not necessarily an ideal yeast for this type of beer. It is one of the fastest/most robust fermenters in the planet and when you throw it that much sugar it can do some crazy things. Are you measuring internal temperature? This yeast can create some serious heat, especially at that high a gravity. Ideally for a beer this Big it needs to be around 64 or lower (internal temp) for a while and then raised. It also needs lots and lots of O2 even for a sub 1.050 beer.

For future reference I’d use 1056 or 1728 for a big beer like this. They’re much more forgiving and will produce a better beer if you don’t have really good control over every aspect of fermentation. And both (especially 1728) have higher ABV tolerances.

 

[Rob2010SS]

1968/002 is not necessarily an ideal yeast for this type of beer. It is one of the fastest/most robust fermenters in the planet and when you throw it that much sugar it can do some crazy things. Are you measuring internal temperature? This yeast can create some serious heat, especially at that high a gravity. Ideally for a beer this Big it needs to be around 64 or lower (internal temp) for a while and then raised. It also needs lots and lots of O2 even for a sub 1.050 beer.

For future reference I’d use 1056 or 1728 for a big beer like this. They’re much more forgiving and will produce a better beer if you don’t have really good control over every aspect of fermentation. And both (especially 1728) have higher ABV tolerances.

Yes, I'm measuring internal temp to the best of my current ability. I have the inkbird temp probe insulated against the outside of the carboy and the tilt hydrometer is measuring it from the inside.

I'm noticing that it is probably the craziest fermentation I've had. I'm actually pissed at how much beer i've lost thus far in fermentation. Below is a comparison of day one to now, in regards to the level in the carboy. The foam coming out of the blow off just won't stop! I had 1/4" layer of liquid on the bottom of my freezer this morning from everything getting pushed out.

I'll be home in 4 hours so maybe I'll turn the temp down a bit. The website said 64 was the bottom end so it's been holding at 66.

In regards to 1056, thought about it at first but I took someone's advice to use a more characterful yeast, which is why I chose this one. However, 1728 was also recommended by that individual, but I didn't go with it.

 

[Rob2010SS]

1968/002 is not necessarily an ideal yeast for this type of beer. It is one of the fastest/most robust fermenters in the planet and when you throw it that much sugar it can do some crazy things. Are you measuring internal temperature? This yeast can create some serious heat, especially at that high a gravity. Ideally for a beer this Big it needs to be around 64 or lower (internal temp) for a while and then raised. It also needs lots and lots of O2 even for a sub 1.050 beer.

For future reference I’d use 1056 or 1728 for a big beer like this. They’re much more forgiving and will produce a better beer if you don’t have really good control over every aspect of fermentation. And both (especially 1728) have higher ABV tolerances.

Additionally, this website is really why I chose 1968 for this. I've read of people using this strain for this style with good results, so I figured I'd give it a whirl.

Anyone experienced serious blow off with this yeast and volume loss? I'm pretty sure I've lost a gallon out of the fermenter with everything that's come through the blow off.... Luckily I targeted 6 gallons in the fermenter but it still pisses me off a bit.

 

[couchsending]

You can use it for this “style” for sure... Issue is this yeasts alcohol tolerance. Great yeast but it won’t get much past 9%. Not sure what you were expecting your FG to be. With 002 you probably won’t get much below 1.040.

 

[Rob2010SS]

You can use it for this “style” for sure... Issue is this yeasts alcohol tolerance. Great yeast but it won’t get much past 9%. Not sure what you were expecting your FG to be. With 002 you probably won’t get much below 1.040.

Yeah, my ABV wasn't supposed to get to 10.5% originally. I was planning for 9.5-9.8% in which it would have been fine. Oh well, we'll see where it finishes out. I'll pitch some US05 to finish it if I have to.

 

[poley]

I've had a lot of success getting 1968 over 10% on a regular basis. Keep your temperature under control early to control your ester profile, then let it rise to 72 to finish fermentation and clean up VDKs. That yeast is a beast and I haven't found an upper limit yet, though I haven't pushed it past 12%.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I've had a lot of success getting 1968 over 10% on a regular basis. Keep your temperature under control early to control your ester profile, then let it rise to 72 to finish fermentation and clean up VDKs. That yeast is a beast and I haven't found an upper limit yet, though I haven't pushed it past 12%.

Unfortunately, looks like it stalled on me. Gravity has been sitting at 1.045 for a few days (. I pitched 2 packs of rehydrated US-05 the other day to see if I can get it to finish. We'll see how it goes. This yeast for sure was a beast. I need to work with it more to get used to it. Very finnicky.

 

[IslandLizard]

Unfortunately, looks like it stalled on me. Gravity has been sitting at 1.045 for a few days (. I pitched 2 packs of rehydrated US-05 the other day to see if I can get it to finish. We'll see how it goes. This yeast for sure was a beast. I need to work with it more to get used to it. Very finnicky.

1.045 with a hydrometer? Or your Tilt?
I wouldn't trust a Tilt reading with all that foam.

If it's still foaming and bubbling it isn't stalled.