Wort is good, beer is bad. Troubleshooting needed.

[Judochop]

So, I have this friend who is making bad beer. Seriously… I really do. We brew together, and we split the wort, at which point we ferment at our respective homes with our respective yeast starters and do our own packaging/serving. Come tasting time, my beers are clean and as delicious as the recipe allows, while his, let’s say 3 out of 4 times, are bad.

By ‘bad’, there is a signature nail polish remover aroma to start things off. Side by side with mine, his beers taste ‘dead’ (flat, lifeless). Malt and hop flavors seem beaten down and obscured by a general flabbiness. And finally there is an unpleasant bite in the finish; that all too familiar “it tastes like beer in most ways, but I just don’t want another one” bite.

The wort is good, so, it’s something he’s doing during fermentation or packaging/serving. We both sanitize with starsan. We both do yeast starters on a stir plate, generally according to the recommendations given by MrMalty’s yeast calculator. We both oxygenate with a diffusion stone. We both ferment with temp-controlled environments. We both keg, force carb and serve from a keezer fitted with Perlicks.

To complicate matters, he is terribly impatient, refuses to accurately measure his PBW or starsan concentrations, and generally looks to cut corners whenever possible (or not possible, as the case may be).

These are the troubleshooting steps he's already taken:

I made him buy a new O2 diffusion stone, as I didn’t trust the old one.
I made him replace his draft lines.
I made him promise to cool his starter wort to room temp before pitching. (Pretty sure he was pitching while the starter was still warm to the touch. 90+?)

So, I’m trying to figure out where else the source of the troubles might lie. I don’t know if the following are actually happening, or if they would lead to the issues he’s experiencing.

His starsan concentration is too strong and he’s picking up excess acid in the fermenter/kegs.
He’s over-oxygenating. (How could we know?)
His CO2 is crap quality. (Is this really a concern?)
One or more of his CO2 regulators is harboring some nasty funk. (Is this fixable? Or is replacement necessary?)
His temp controller on his fermentation freezer is busted and he’s fermenting too hot.

Does anything jump right out as the most likely culprit? Are there any other things it might be that I haven’t thought of?

 

[solbes]

First, I would watch him cooling his wort to low/mid 60's. High temp pitch would do a lot of those things.
Next, I would double check his fermenation chamber temps with an independent thermometer. Same as above in symptoms of hot fermenations.
Then I would clean the heck out of his kegging liquid lines.
Lastly, if that didn't help, I would bleach bomb everything from ferm bucket through keg faucet. You have to be a little careful on bleach exposure to stainless, but the general 20 minute soak of 1 Table spoon bleach/gallon of cool water works well for most materials (aluminum and brass being 2 that are incompatible).

 

[kombat]

Sounds like he's fermenting too hot. Have him pay extra-careful attention to his fermentation temperatures. Remember, for ales he should be aiming for a wort temperature in the low 60's, not just ambient temperature.

 

[WayFrae]

Sounds like he's fermenting too hot. Have him pay extra-careful attention to his fermentation temperatures. Remember, for ales he should be aiming for a wort temperature in the low 60's, not just ambient temperature.

This is what I suspect also. Check his temperature probe in the fermentation chamber. If it is just measuring the ambient temp then he will be fermenting too high.

 

[TopherM]

First off, it doesn't really matter what the wort tastes like. 100% of worts taste good. No one ever in the history of brewing has tasted their wort and been able to accurately say "oh no, I can tell I screwed up this beer!"

Second, this definitely sounds like a fermentation issue, so definitely put your focus there. Either temps or sanitation.

 

[Judochop]

First off, it doesn't really matter what the wort tastes like. 100% of worts taste good. No one ever in the history of brewing has tasted their wort and been able to accurately say "oh no, I can tell I screwed up this beer!"

Thanks to everyone for the input so far. To the above point, let me say for one, it is not true. When you brew beer using water from a garden hose, as I have done in the past, the wort will NOT taste satisfying to one who knows good wort. But anecdotes aside, I simply wanted to make the point that the problem has been isolated to exist somewhere post wort-collection.

Allow me to add another complicating piece of evidence to the crime scene. The latest beer we brewed to completion (an EPA) was divided into 4 individual batches, 2 for him, 2 for me. He had one of his on tap, which we tested against both of mine. Mine = good, his = bad. But then we went and dug out his other batch of the EPA, which was still sitting uncarbed in his lagering freezer (a separate chamber from his serving freezer), and slapped a picnic tap onto it. It tasted fine; clean, no evidence of foulness. It was flat of course, but I have every reason to believe it would be a great beer once carbed.

Based on this evidence, we have a hard time believing it has anything to do with fermentation, or the transfer from fermenter to keg. He’s impatient, but not dumb. Both of his fermenters reside in his fermentation freezer, and we’re pretty certain he’s not fermenting too hot, or at least not hot enough to cause the undrinkability that we’re tasting in any case.

It makes me want to point to something in his serving chamber; either the CO2 itself, the regulators, CO2 lines, the beer lines or taps, and that it’s something that slowly works its way into the beer. The major hitch with this theory is that he’s got a blonde on tap that has been there for at least a couple months and it tastes fine. Lightly grainy, creamy and clean. He’s got a pilsner that is too new to conclude anything, and he’s got the EPA that is affected and an Irish that is sorely affected.

His CO2 rig consists of a tank with regulator, feeding into the freezer into a chain of 3 individual regulators, from which there are 5 potential CO2 lines going out. (2 of the regs have splitters, the 3rd reg does not.) I feel myself trying to convince myself that there is something in the CO2 path causing this, but it’s so hard to isolate. It’s awfully frustrating for both of us. He’s got an electric brewery in his basement and this is my ticket to summer/winter brewing. So you see, if he gives up the hobby in frustration, I also have much to lose!!

For now, I’m suggesting to him that all of his beers currently in the lagering freezer should stay there, be carbonated there and served from there via picnic tap. If, after a couple months, those beers are still tasting fine, and some beers on his serving freezer are funked, then it seems safe to conclude the problem lies somewhere in the serving freezer area, no?

 

[jekeane]

CO2 can be poor quality but this would mean all the beers are equally bad.

Does he have check valves on his regulators? If not it is certainly possible that beer at some point has backed up a line into the regulator. Most regulators I have come across are pretty simple to disassemble and check for gunk.

Have you pulled from a keg that is bad with a clean picnic tap? Are you sure it isnt beer lines?

You can over oxygenate. Which is a possible source of the acetone type aroma. How long is he running his oxygen for?

 

[flugelizor]

Over 25 years of brewing, The only time I have experienced anything like this, it was liquid lines. You may want to run a quick experiment by replacing all lines again, or bypassing the liquid side with the picnic faucet which does not appear to have the issue.

Maybe you already mentioned, does he use BLC?
If he can't shake the issue he may want to switch to bottling for a while.

 

[Judochop]

CO2 can be poor quality but this would mean all the beers are equally bad.

Yeah, that's what I figured too.

Does he have check valves on his regulators? If not it is certainly possible that beer at some point has backed up a line into the regulator. Most regulators I have come across are pretty simple to disassemble and check for gunk.

I will have him look into this!

Have you pulled from a keg that is bad with a clean picnic tap? Are you sure it isnt beer lines?

Well, since I made him replace all his lines not too long ago (as our first troubleshooting measure, in fact), I didn't think it could be the lines. But no harm in trying again. It will be a shock to me if the bad beer suddenly turned good coming out a picnic tap. But it would be a good shock!

You can over oxygenate. Which is a possible source of the acetone type aroma. How long is he running his oxygen for?

I think he goes for 30-60 seconds with a wand-style diffusion stone. From what I've read, this shouldn't take him anywhere near the danger zone. However, he tells me that when he oxygenates, he gets extreme frothing. Is this normal? There's nothing on his O2 regulator that gives him a flow rate, nor is there on mine. So how can we know?

 

[Judochop]

Maybe you already mentioned, does he use BLC?

What is BLC? Beer line cleaner? If so, yes. I told him to replace his lines, which he did, and now he's using PBW to clean his lines after each keg.

 

[WayFrae]

What is BLC? Beer line cleaner? If so, yes. I told him to replace his lines, which he did, and now he's using PBW to clean his lines after each keg.

Yes, Beer Line Cleaner. It is not the same as PBW. Here is a link.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Well if he's indeed impatient, he may not be cleaning and sanitizing each beer line after every keg. It wouldn't take long for them to get nasty. Might need to clean out the faucets too. And how about the dip tubes in the kegs -- are you sure he cleans them properly? E.g. if he simply dumps a scoop of oxy-clean into the keg and fills with 5-gal of water, then he didn't clean the inside of the dip tube.

 

[Clef051]

Is he running star-san through the kegs/lines. Maybe try boiling the taps to kill off anything in there. I use the co2 to force my pbw & star-san thru the keg to clean the dip tube and lines also.

 

[jbaysurfer]

Did this escape everybody but me?

I made him promise to cool his starter wort to room temp before pitching. (Pretty sure he was pitching while the starter was still warm to the touch. 90+?)

You said "nail polish" and you told us this. It's really not some big mystery, but I have a feeling this thread is going to have legs for awhile.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Did this escape everybody but me?


You said "nail polish" and you told us this. It's really not some big mystery, but I have a feeling this thread is going to have legs for awhile.

Meh. If he's pitching an entire starter that's like 20% of his beer volume then yeah that's a problem. Hopefully he decants. But I'm not sure that running a starter warm would somehow mess up the yeast.

 

[phenry]

What does he ferment in? Plastic? You can have good sanitation practices and still end up with lifeless nail polish of beer if you have a wild yeast or bacteria taking up residence in your plastic.

You could also try bottling a batch and see the results from that. If his beer still ends up falling short, you know it's on the fermentation side of things.

 

[Redhook]

Lastly, if that didn't help, I would bleach bomb everything from ferm bucket through keg faucet. You have to be a little careful on bleach exposure to stainless, but the general 20 minute soak of 1 Table spoon bleach/gallon of cool water works well for most materials (aluminum and brass being 2 that are incompatible).

I'd stay away from bleach and use PBW and StarSan. Bleach can leave behind a nasty residue.

 

[acidrain]

Meh. If he's pitching an entire starter that's like 20% of his beer volume then yeah that's a problem. Hopefully he decants. But I'm not sure that running a starter warm would somehow mess up the yeast.

Pitching the starter... as in adding packaged yeast to the starter flask.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Pitching the starter... as in adding packaged yeast to the starter flask.

No, "pitching the entire starter" means pitching the entire starter flask into the wort. That's of course normal when the starter is small. But often (e.g. lagers) the starter will get to be 10% to 20+% of the batch size. You don't want to pitch that, so you decant the starter beer and just pitch the yeast at the bottom of the flask. If he pitched a huge starter without decanting that was made at 90F, he could get some serious off flavors.

 

[solbes]

I'd stay away from bleach and use PBW and StarSan. Bleach can leave behind a nasty residue.

Not if you rinse really well with hot water afterward. I've had to go through and bleach bomb everything after getting a nasty gusher bug infection in 3 straight batches (took that long before it appeared). After a good shock and awe campaign with good ol' bleach, no issues for last 15 batches or so. The first batch after cleaning/rinsing the bleach had zero off flavors from bleach.

Sometimes even cleaning with Oxy and sanitizing with StarSan will not get rid of everything, though that is my normal practice in most brewing.

 

[day_trippr]

^On the mark.

I've bleached-bombed all kinds of brewery stuff over the years. There's a sort of "renewal" that results from a successful bleach bomb campaign - everything old seems new again. :rockin:

I occasionally even bomb my favorite pint glass overnight, then rinse the bejesus out of it in hot tap water, rinse it with cold tap water to get it chilled back down, then pour a pint in it, without a hint of bleach residue. (btw, the dirty glassware head-retention thing is a total myth, imo, but that's for another thread )

Cheers!

 

[mblanks2]

We're the gas lines replaced also? You said he had splitters in the lines but have not indicated if he has check valves. With splitters and assuming no check valves he may have had a backup into the gas lines creating the issue at hand. My 2 cents.

 

[Judochop]

Hello everyone. It is I, the OP, back to thank everyone for their best efforts, and to report some significant findings!

We sampled a keg of his that was lagering, awaiting carbonation, and it tasted fine. For the record, it was a split batch, the other half of which was on tap in his keezer, and rancid. He put the good half of the batch from the lagering chamber on CO2 using the tank/regulator dedicated to his lagering freezer, and a week later it too was foul.

Conclusion: there is something in the lagering chamber’s CO2 tank, regulator, or gas lines. We are thinking it’s the tank. Like some trace of mechanical oil, or something.

The Plan: He’s going to buy a fresh new tank (he needed to upsize to a 10 pounder anyway) and get it filled at my LHBS, where I know the gas quality is worthy since it’s what I use.

Supposing we are correct, and there’s something non-food grade lurking in his tank, my question to the team now is this: Is his attached regulator FUBAR? It makes sense to replace all the gas lines, since that’s of little cost. But what is the likelihood that whatever demon his tank possessed is now living in the regulator as well? And if it becomes necessary, is there a way to safely exorcise a regulator of this particular form of evil?

 

[FiddlersGreen87]

This is purely a uneducated guess, but you could possible soak it in PBW/StarSan and then run Co2 through it to blast out any dislodged residue. I'd have a hard time thinking the regulator was harboring anything to start with unless it was driven into the regulator from the tank side.

 

[Judochop]

This is purely a uneducated guess, but you could possible soak it in PBW/StarSan and then run Co2 through it to blast out any dislodged residue.

I don't think there's anything to dislodge. I'm more concerned that the regulator might have been 'aromatically stained' with the flavor of the bad CO2 tank. No idea if that's something to be concerned about. I'm hoping I can pick up the attention of somebody who's has experience with a bad CO2 tank.

I'd have a hard time thinking the regulator was harboring anything to start with unless it was driven into the regulator from the tank side.

No, it is not my belief that the regulator was ever the source of the issue. My concern is exactly as you said: could the bad tank drive it's badness into the regulator?

We will find out (hopefully not the hard way) this weekend. He replaced the suspect tank with a new one, and now has 2 new beers kegged and being separately carbonated with different tanks (neither of which are suspect at this point) and different CO2 pathways; one in the lagering freezer, and one in the serving keezer.

If both taste fine this weekend, then I think we can declare the case closed. Pray for us.

 

[FiddlersGreen87]

I give you guys credit for determination. After reading all of this thread I'm having a hard time adding up how many batches of beer you've had to throw out lol

 

[jbaysurfer]

Meh. If he's pitching an entire starter that's like 20% of his beer volume then yeah that's a problem. Hopefully he decants. But I'm not sure that running a starter warm would somehow mess up the yeast.

When you realize that taste thresholds are measured in PPB, you start to realize that what's in your starter as off flavors, introduces those off flavors to your batch. There is very little more important then proper starter handling when it comes to yeast health and quality beer. YMMV, but I swear by it.

 

[Judochop]

I give you guys credit for determination. After reading all of this thread I'm having a hard time adding up how many batches of beer you've had to throw out lol

Thanks for the credit. It's been a long, frustrating road for sure. And, I'll be honest, we aren't quite at the point to share in that LOL with you. But if this weekend bears good news, it will be a very good step in the right direction! (I really don't want to think about what it'll mean if the weekend bears bad news...)

Incidentally, we just counted them [all the ruined batches]. The number is.... 7.

A moment of silence, please, to remember the fallen:

1 Maibock
2 all Citra EPAs
1 Saison & 1 Kolsch (split batch)
1 California Common
1 Aussie+NZ hopped IPA

 

[Braufessor]

So, I have this friend who is making bad beer. Seriously… I really do. We brew together, and we split the wort, at which point we ferment at our respective homes with our respective yeast starters and do our own packaging/serving. Come tasting time, my beers are clean and as delicious as the recipe allows, while his, let’s say 3 out of 4 times, are bad.

To complicate matters, he is terribly impatient, refuses to accurately measure his PBW or starsan concentrations, and generally looks to cut corners whenever possible (or not possible, as the case may be).

These are the troubleshooting steps he's already taken:

I made him buy a new O2 diffusion stone, as I didn’t trust the old one.
I made him replace his draft lines.
I made him promise to cool his starter wort to room temp before pitching. (Pretty sure he was pitching while the starter was still warm to the touch. 90+?)

So, I’m trying to figure out where else the source of the troubles might lie. I don’t know if the following are actually happening, or if they would lead to the issues he’s experiencing.


Does anything jump right out as the most likely culprit? Are there any other things it might be that I haven’t thought of?

If I am being honest, I think the "culprit" is that you have a friend that cares a lot less about brewing good beer than you do. I think it is quite good of you to go so far out of your way trying to help out, but the bottom line seems to be that he is not all that receptive to your help, advice or suggestions. Why isn't HE the one asking these questions? It seems to me that you are spending WAAYYYYYY more time trying to make his beer taste good than he is. You (And by "you" I mean "He") might get a decent batch or two in the short term. But, if he is always looking to cut corners and take short cuts ....... well, it is only a matter of time until he is right back in the same boat.
I think the one thing you might not have thought of is that he is just not really motivated enough to brew good beer. Not trying to be a jerk, and it is obvious that you have tried about everything on his behalf, but some people just never get it. I have been in your shoes before and some folks just won't listen. It is painful to watch (and drink), but you can only do so much.

 

[Judochop]

If I am being honest, I think the "culprit" is that you have a friend that cares a lot less about brewing good beer than you do.

He's an odd bird, but he cares. He doesn't care for the process, doesn't care about the chemistry or biology of it, doesn't care about recipe design, doesn't get excited about new malts or hops, but he cares deeply about the final product. He could just as easily just buy the beer he likes, but he went and invested hundreds/thousands in gear to create it himself. I don't at all get that myself, but somewhere in there is a passion for brewing. His impatience frustrates me, but he is the owner of the 1 bbl electric brewery that I use, so I must do what I can to keep the passion, wherever that may come from, alive.

As I hope to conclude this weekend, he's not a bad brewer at all despite his flaws. He just got bit by a bad CO2 tank. A good warning for us all. In fact, I think there was a small bit by Ashton Lewis in the latest issue of BYO covering this very issue.

 

[FiddlersGreen87]

Thanks for the credit. It's been a long, frustrating road for sure. And, I'll be honest, we aren't quite at the point to share in that LOL with you.

I know you didn't take my laughter as an insult either, but I am laughing more out of the sheer frustration boiling over that would come of such a situation that it'd be all you could do due to the ridiculousness of it. I completely feel for you on the pain involved in tossing batches of beer. I had to throw out an entire 5 gal oatmeal stout batch that had a mold infection. Dumping out bottle after bottle of beer was painful. I can't imagine upending 7 batches. Although, I think after two like mentioned by Braufessor, I'd probably just start completely over and make sure everything in my entire process was so meticulous and flawless. That way I could bottle some, keg some in multiple kegs, and try to isolate the issue.

Anyways, I hope it was the ****ty co2 tank and your problems are solved.

 

[Braufessor]

He's an odd bird, but he cares. He doesn't care for the process, doesn't care about the chemistry or biology of it, doesn't care about recipe design, doesn't get excited about new malts or hops, but he cares deeply about the final product. He could just as easily just buy the beer he likes, but he went and invested hundreds/thousands in gear to create it himself. I don't at all get that myself, but somewhere in there is a passion for brewing. His impatience frustrates me, but he is the owner of the 1 bbl electric brewery that I use, so I must do what I can to keep the passion, wherever that may come from, alive.

As I hope to conclude this weekend, he's not a bad brewer at all despite his flaws. He just got bit by a bad CO2 tank. A good warning for us all. In fact, I think there was a small bit by Ashton Lewis in the latest issue of BYO covering this very issue.

I hope it is the tank.... Sounds like you are looking into everything you can and doing all you can to help out. He is definitely lucky to have someone to help out. I hope to see a post over the upcoming weeks about a successful brew

 

[Judochop]

Anyways, I hope it was the ****ty co2 tank and your problems are solved.

I hope to see a post over the upcoming weeks about a successful brew

Your wishes have been granted! A keg of Schwartzbier was carb'd with a fresh, new healthy tank last week, and as of a tasting last night, all signs point to an equally healthy brew. No indication of foulness detected!



Ye be warned: Rare though it may be, bad CO2 is out there, waiting to break the hearts of men. Be wary. Be verrrry wary...

 

[FiddlersGreen87]

 

[Judochop]

Thanks!



(Perhaps my celebration is premature - a couple weeks will tell the tale for sure - but I'm feeling pretty confident we got our solution.)

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I just read though this sounds like a tough road you guys went on.

I just got a second 10lb tank from LHBS for doing force carbs/leg cleaning outside my keezer. It's an older tank so is there any info/tips on how to check if it's got 'gunk' in it. I haven't used it yet.

Thanks!

 

[Judochop]

I just read though this sounds like a tough road you guys went on.

I just got a second 10lb tank from LHBS for doing force carbs/leg cleaning outside my keezer. It's an older tank so is there any info/tips on how to check if it's got 'gunk' in it. I haven't used it yet.

Thanks!

How about we talk about it next weekend when you're in town?

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

How about we talk about it next weekend when you're in town?

well how paths have crossed in strange ways again!? This is not the SFO terminal you know. I look forward to discussing this over one of your brews.

 

[Judochop]

I look forward to discussing this over one of your brews.

One?!

Oh dear... what ever happened to the HausBrauerei Harvey I once knew?

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

One?!

Oh dear... what ever happened to the HausBrauerei Harvey I once knew?

we'll discuss this over one, then move onto other topics for the next 5 or 6, like how my Frankenkeezer is coming along.