WLP644 -Brett B Trois

[jrfehon]

I did a cider with it last winter. When it was young, it was fruity/tropical. After 3 months or so, the best description I have is "goaty." I enjoy brett beers and I have recognized this flavor to some degree in some brett beers but this cider is so funky/goaty it's hard to even get it close to your face let alone take a sip. It's got more stanky sweaty funk than the first four Funkadelic albums combined. I am by no means new to brewing so I'm 99.99999% positive it was not infected with any other organisms (I've never had an infected batch unless I put the "infection" there purposely). If trois is a sacch strain, it might be better at being brett than brett is...

I kegged my cider after 1 month of fermentation. I added potassium sorbate and back sweetened so it ended up semi-dry. I have the same opinions about 644 as Petekiteworld just posted. I prefer it young when it's fruity vs. after it ages. I'm guessing the potassium sorbate I added will prevent the yeast from turning the cider funky. I don't have a ton of cider making experience but this strain works really well if you don't let it age.

 

[Nico93]

i made a strong ale and i would like to add some brett wlp 644 in secondary.
previously i thought to add wlp 650 but my homebrew shop haven't got it...
my question is:
is wlp 644 a good strain to secondary fermentation in this type of beer or should i wait wlp 650?

 

[Gus_13]

I actually have stopped using this strain entirely. In the many pale ales I've brewed with it they start great with lots of fruit flavors and body and then keep drying out for the next several weeks until the beers becomes mediocre.

Either way if it's not brett it is a sacch strain that does a great imitation!

This is my exact experience with it as a solo strain in a brew. I pitched it with Claus. and had better results with aging. When I did a Saison grist fermented with Trois solo, the young beer tasted super fruity and smelled amazing. Over time, it dwindled to muddled and simplistic. Actually very uninteresting. My BMC beer friends ended up finishing that off saying they could drink tons of it. It seems to work really well with other things though. I plan on adding it to secondary with Claus and Lacto Brevis for a barrel-aged Saison here in the future.

 

[chefchris]

i made a strong ale and i would like to add some brett wlp 644 in secondary.
previously i thought to add wlp 650 but my homebrew shop haven't got it...
my question is:
is wlp 644 a good strain to secondary fermentation in this type of beer or should i wait wlp 650?

From what I've gathered it is unimpressive at as a secondary yeast, most saying they didn't get any character from it. Which makes sense considering it's regular old sach.

 

[BrewinHooligan]

From what I've gathered it is unimpressive at as a secondary yeast, most saying they didn't get any character from it. Which makes sense considering it's regular old sach.

From White Labs on WLP644: This Belgian strain, used traditionally for 100% Brettanomyces fermentations, produces a slightly tart beer with delicate characteristics of mango and pineapple.

This is a 100% Brettanomyces strain. It is unique from other strains of Brett in that it grows faster and ferments faster than most working similarly to Sacc strains but is definitely not Sacc.

Just drank the last bottle I had of a pale ale I brewed probably 4-5 months ago and it was still very good. Still very fruity and the hops had help up very well too. YMMV

 

[TrickyDick]

I had used this strain to ferment half of a double (10G) batch of the "Abner" clone recipe from BYO last year. I kegged both halves. By the way, I really loved the regular Abner fermented with the Giga-Yeast Vermont IPA strain. Anyway, the 644 fermented beer was very fruity and estery - too much so in my opinion. I ended up racking into bottles after a while. I have recently opened one after several months in the bottle. It has definitely evolved into something very very different than it had been in the keg. Could be warmer temps? I don't really know. It is very brett funky. I had consumed this one last in a series of a 5 beers while watching that atrocious Green Bay vs Seahawks game, so nothing more specific as far as tasting notes.

TD

 

[tagz]

From White Labs on WLP644: This Belgian strain, used traditionally for 100% Brettanomyces fermentations, produces a slightly tart beer with delicate characteristics of mango and pineapple.



This is a 100% Brettanomyces strain. It is unique from other strains of Brett in that it grows faster and ferments faster than most working similarly to Sacc strains but is definitely not Sacc.



Just drank the last bottle I had of a pale ale I brewed probably 4-5 months ago and it was still very good. Still very fruity and the hops had help up very well too. YMMV

If you look back a few pages you'll see that it was recently discovered that this strain is indeed sacc. White Labs hasn't changed their description but they most likely will.

 

[Nico93]

thanks to all,i'll wait for the wlp 650!

ps: i read the article in the penultimate page, the man who wrote it is a boss!

 

[BrewinHooligan]

If you look back a few pages you'll see that it was recently discovered that this strain is indeed sacc. White Labs hasn't changed their description but they most likely will.

My apologies and thank you for prompting me to read back through the thread. Apparently I've missed a bunch... I personally am excited this is a sacc strain easing my fears of cross-contamination with my other brewing equipment and bottles.

 

[chefchris]

My apologies and thank you for prompting me to read back through the thread. Apparently I've missed a bunch... I personally am excited this is a sacc strain easing my fears of cross-contamination with my other brewing equipment and bottles.

Not too much to worry about with brett anyways. Brett is yeast and should be just as easy to get rid of as any other yeast strain. I think the fear of cross contamination with it is just hearsay and regurgitation. Either way, Trois is always invited to any party I'm having.

 

[Hanso]

Not too much to worry about with brett anyways. Brett is yeast and should be just as easy to get rid of as any other yeast strain. I think the fear of cross contamination with it is just hearsay and regurgitation. Either way, Trois is always invited to any party I'm having.

I agree the fears are overblown, and at the same time, Brett is extremely distinctive in both flavor and attenuation so if there is a little that makes it into a clean batch over time it will become an obvious infection, versus say, an English ale that you made that gets infected with tiny bit of left over US-05.

 

[Threetall]

Brett Fears are overblown. But with new data it appears WLP644 is actually not Brett, hence why it doesn't finish as dry as brett or have other brett characteristics. But it is a great yeast.
http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com/2014/12/brett-trois-riddle-wrapped-in-mystery.html

 

[inamays]

White Labs and Chris White specifically have already replied to the "Trois Controversy" on their FB page.


Adam

Chris White was recently interviewed on this podcast and discussed it: http://cheerscharlotte.com/episode-085-chris-white-white-labs/

 

[BrewinHooligan]

Just bottled an ipa fermented with this on Sunday. It's been a while since I've bottled and due to dry hopping the bejeesus out of this one with whole leaf hops and siphon issues my volume was a little low for the amount of priming sugar used and I placed all the bottles in a Rubbermaid tub with lid to contain potential bottle bombs. Curiosity and paranoia got the best of me today so I took a peek in on them with a flashlight and they are starting to have pellicles form in the bottle. I tossed one in the fridge to try tomorrow to see what's going on flavor wise. Everything used in the process had a thorough starsan soak and my spigot and bottling wand are brand new so I don't suspect contamination. Anyone else have something similar happen with this yeast?

 

[TastyAdventure]

I took 1 gal off my IPA and fermented with 100% Trios, and then 2.5 gal off of a 1.069 Scottish Ale...
So I can compare its performance to the other yeasts I used.
I won't be using it again in a 100% ferm.
The yeast puts off sharp alcohol notes ((one batch was kept at ~68, the other around 66, then bumped after 10 days).
It is obviously very cloudy, something I normally don't care about, but there is so much yeast left in suspension for SO long that it creates a very muddled flavor. The nice flavors that it does put off in no way compensate for what I mentioned above.

 

[chefchris]

Just bottled an ipa fermented with this on Sunday. It's been a while since I've bottled and due to dry hopping the bejeesus out of this one with whole leaf hops and siphon issues my volume was a little low for the amount of priming sugar used and I placed all the bottles in a Rubbermaid tub with lid to contain potential bottle bombs. Curiosity and paranoia got the best of me today so I took a peek in on them with a flashlight and they are starting to have pellicles form in the bottle. I tossed one in the fridge to try tomorrow to see what's going on flavor wise. Everything used in the process had a thorough starsan soak and my spigot and bottling wand are brand new so I don't suspect contamination. Anyone else have something similar happen with this yeast?

Yup, I've used Trois several times and the last time I got a pellicle in the fermenter and in the bottle. It dropped pretty quick in the bottle.

 

[BrewinHooligan]

Yup, I've used Trois several times and the last time I got a pellicle in the fermenter and in the bottle. It dropped pretty quick in the bottle.

Awesome, that's good to know. And yeah the yeast isn't very flocculant but with cold crashing and patience that is a non issue imo. I use this yeast quite a bit and ferment hot, like mid 70s and get great results at that temp, ymmv

 

[sweetcell]

is there a consensus on what's the best temp for Trois?

if the weather cooperates (big "if"), i'll be brewing this weekend and pitching Trois. i'm thinking of starting around 66, maybe ramping up to 70 when activity starts to die down.

 

[BrewinHooligan]

White labs lists 70-85f and I have gotten great results in that range.

 

[bovineblitz]

Just bottled an ipa fermented with this on Sunday. It's been a while since I've bottled and due to dry hopping the bejeesus out of this one with whole leaf hops and siphon issues my volume was a little low for the amount of priming sugar used and I placed all the bottles in a Rubbermaid tub with lid to contain potential bottle bombs. Curiosity and paranoia got the best of me today so I took a peek in on them with a flashlight and they are starting to have pellicles form in the bottle. I tossed one in the fridge to try tomorrow to see what's going on flavor wise. Everything used in the process had a thorough starsan soak and my spigot and bottling wand are brand new so I don't suspect contamination. Anyone else have something similar happen with this yeast?

Yup, I've had it form a pellicle. Apparently the difference between pellicle formation and a lack thereof is just expression of one gene. Most brewers' yeast has had selection against expression of pellicle formation, but sacch strains are all technically capable of doing it.

 

[bolus14]

I've read the discussion on whether Trois is truly Brett or not and that it doesn't finish as "dry" as normal Brett strains. With that said I have a Wit that I brewed on 1/10 still in the secondary, at one point it had a ham like taste, this is mentioned in BJCP guidelines and is unwanted. I can say for sure it's unwanted Now that taste has subsided, pretty much nonexistent now, but it's pretty bland. In my opinion it's close to Blue Moon, barely any flavor with very very slight citrus in the background, but I wanted more.

After talking with the owner of LHBS he mentioned throwing some Trois in, but after researching I question whether it there's anything left for it to chew through. It's at 1.018 which is high, my mash temp got higher than i wanted, so do any of you think I would get any of the "fruity" flavors from Trois?

 

[sweetcell]

more on pellicle formation, and sacch's ability to create one: https://matthumbard.wordpress.com/2015/01/30/beer-microbiology-what-is-a-pellicle/

i wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Trois is a sacch, but not cerevisiae - there are a lot of other species of sacch out there.

 

[chefchris]

I've read the discussion on whether Trois is truly Brett or not and that it doesn't finish as "dry" as normal Brett strains. With that said I have a Wit that I brewed on 1/10 still in the secondary, at one point it had a ham like taste, this is mentioned in BJCP guidelines and is unwanted. I can say for sure it's unwanted Now that taste has subsided, pretty much nonexistent now, but it's pretty bland. In my opinion it's close to Blue Moon, barely any flavor with very very slight citrus in the background, but I wanted more.

After talking with the owner of LHBS he mentioned throwing some Trois in, but after researching I question whether it there's anything left for it to chew through. It's at 1.018 which is high, my mash temp got higher than i wanted, so do any of you think I would get any of the "fruity" flavors from Trois?

If you want fruity flavors try Brett C. Trois in secondary probably isn't going to do anything for you.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I can't believe I only just found this thread.

I pitched this strain into an IIPA this morning, and I have high hopes. I did find out after I bought it that it's actually sacch, but the reviews for the strain are still good and I really just want positive results. I do hope it attenuates well... The one thing I didn't do is add sugar to thin the body.

Everything I've read outside this thread has said that a 72-78F fermentation is the way to go. I let it start at 73... Maybe I'll let it cool off a little. I had active fermentation in, I dunno, 6 or 8 hours, and I have vigorous fermentation after 10 hours. Which is awesome.

 

[BrewinHooligan]

I can't believe I only just found this thread.

I pitched this strain into an IIPA this morning, and I have high hopes. I did find out after I bought it that it's actually sacch, but the reviews for the strain are still good and I really just want positive results. I do hope it attenuates well... The one thing I didn't do is add sugar to thin the body.

Everything I've read outside this thread has said that a 72-78F fermentation is the way to go. I let it start at 73... Maybe I'll let it cool off a little. I had active fermentation in, I dunno, 6 or 8 hours, and I have vigorous fermentation after 10 hours. Which is awesome.

I personally wouldn't cool it down, let that bugger run. My IPA started at 1.060 and got down to 1.015 with a lb of sugar added at the end of the boil, took only 3 days to fully ferment but I let it sit close to 3 weeks total since this yeast does not drop and clear quickly. This one definitely doesn't get as dry as other strains, but it is damn delicious in my opinion.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I personally wouldn't cool it down, let that bugger run. My IPA started at 1.060 and got down to 1.015 with a lb of sugar added at the end of the boil, took only 3 days to fully ferment but I let it sit close to 3 weeks total since this yeast does not drop and clear quickly. This one definitely doesn't get as dry as other strains, but it is damn delicious in my opinion.

I checked it this morning, and it's stuck at 70F. I'm adding some heat. There's plenty of fermentation left to go. As a side note, this fermentation certainly does not smell like the starters I made. This seems much more clean? Maybe it's the temperature difference.

I'm planning to let it go 3 weeks too. I have a lot of dryhopping to do, and I want to give it plenty of time to settle. I usually bottle in two weeks.

 

[chefchris]

I checked it this morning, and it's stuck at 70F. I'm adding some heat. There's plenty of fermentation left to go. As a side note, this fermentation certainly does not smell like the starters I made. This seems much more clean? Maybe it's the temperature difference.

I'm planning to let it go 3 weeks too. I have a lot of dryhopping to do, and I want to give it plenty of time to settle. I usually bottle in two weeks.

In my experience Trois will ferment down to around 1.012-1.014 or so and sit there for a bit. If you give it a couple of weeks it will drop it down to at least 1.008.

What's your at gravity now?
Edit: Just saw that you brewed this yesterday so no need to check your gravity, thought you were saying it was stuck. When I brew with Trois I keep it at normal ale temps, usually around 68F. I get plenty of character from it at that temp but I honestly don't get a lot of tropical fruit from it. Maybe it's because of my fermentation temp or maybe because people usally throw an ass load of hops in with Trois and you can't tell where the yeast ends and the hops begin. I've been blending it with WLP566 Saison II in saisons and I'm digging it so far.

 

[Barley_Bob]

In my experience Trois will ferment down to around 1.012-1.014 or so and sit there for a bit. If you give it a couple of weeks it will drop it down to at least 1.008.

What's your at gravity now?
Edit: Just saw that you brewed this yesterday so no need to check your gravity, thought you were saying it was stuck. When I brew with Trois I keep it at normal ale temps, usually around 68F. I get plenty of character from it at that temp but I honestly don't get a lot of tropical fruit from it. Maybe it's because of my fermentation temp or maybe because people usally throw an ass load of hops in with Trois and you can't tell where the yeast ends and the hops begin. I've been blending it with WLP566 Saison II in saisons and I'm digging it so far.

To your first point, that's good news. I'm banking on that 85%+ attenuation White Labs lists to get the FG down to a reasonable level. Otherwise, I'm going to have a syrupy mess. I tend to hit high on attenuation with other yeast strains, and hopefully that proves to be the case here. A couple of posts scared me, though.

Right, temp was stuck, not fermentation. It averaged 71F for the first 24hrs, and I let it raise up to 78F today. That "very clean" aroma I reported gave way to something more exciting. So, we'll see. I'm pretty excited to have a 100% Brett B Trois IIPA in my glass (something I'm surely not going to find in any store), and it would be disappointing if it came out too clean.

You make a really good point about telling where the yeast ends and the hops begin, though. There really isn't a way to do it empirically, except maybe through a split batch, which still wouldn't be super compelling. Mike the Mad Fermentationist did a post (which I should link but won't) where he talked about how Brett can, at least theoretically, unlock hop oils that would otherwise be chemically imperceptible to us. It somehow breaks down the molecule. So, I don't know, but it seems we can at least say that Brett enhances hop and citrus character through one or more mechanisms. I'll let you know my opinion when I have my brew in 5 or 6 weeks. Hopefully, it's such a massive hop bomb that I just don't care.

As a side note, I never have any idea what my gravity is. But that's a conversation for the Confession Time thread.

Anyway, thanks for the input. I'm really glad I found this.

 

[chefchris]

Well, I hate to be the one to break this to you but Brett Trois isn't really Brett. It was recently found to be a sach. strain.

 

[crusader1612]

I took 1 gal off my IPA and fermented with 100% Trios, and then 2.5 gal off of a 1.069 Scottish Ale...
So I can compare its performance to the other yeasts I used.
I won't be using it again in a 100% ferm.
The yeast puts off sharp alcohol notes ((one batch was kept at ~68, the other around 66, then bumped after 10 days).
It is obviously very cloudy, something I normally don't care about, but there is so much yeast left in suspension for SO long that it creates a very muddled flavor. The nice flavors that it does put off in no way compensate for what I mentioned above.

WLP644 recommended temp range is higher than that. I ork in celsius, but I believe its 21-23 Deg C.
I've used it alot with great results, in particular saison style brews and rye work well with it. Along with pungent Kiwi hops.
If your concerned about the amount of haze/yeast in suspension, you can always gelatin.

In my experience with the haze, it does disappear in time, so patience is your friend. these brett beers change so much overtime, i hope you didn't throw it out?