WLP644 -Brett B Trois

[MattHollingsworth]

has anyone tried doing a hop forward beer with no boil hops?

Yup. I was inspired by Chad Yacobson. In an interview he mentioned making a beer (hop savant, I think, which I can't get here and haven't tried) with hops added only after the boil. I used a similar amount of hops in what I called a Zero IBU Brett Trois Imperial IPA.

It's intended to be for a party on September 21st, so will report back later on the story at the end point. At the moment, it tastes nice. It *is* bitter despite using no boil hops. It's a different kind of bitter character, though, with perhaps less depth to it and certainly less harsh. Hop amounts are a touch strange as I used what I had on hand and ran out of Citra.

Recipe is like so:

26 liter batch.

7.00 kg Pale Malt
1.50 kg Wheat, Flaked
0.50 kg Oats, Flaked
160.00 g Nelson Sauvin-2012-whole[12.30 %] - Aroma
135.00 g Chinook-2012-pellets[12.40 %] - Aroma
67.00 g Citra-2012-whole[15.00 %] - Aroma
45.00 g Citra-2012-pellets [14.20 %] - Aroma
Brettanomyces Bruxellensis-White Labs
Brettanomyces Bruxellensis Trois (at larger amount than Brett Brux)

Brewed on 6-22, last tasted on 7-23, at which point the SG was 1.011.

OG 1.075.
SG 1.011 (85% attenuation)

8.5% abv

At the point it's at right now, I liked the normal Brett Trois IPA I made some months back better, but will see how it develops over the next 6 weeks or so. I might not dry hop it, I'll see. If I do, I will dry hop it just before kegging. We might run this through a Randall at the party. Time will tell. Might not so we can taste the fruitiness from the Brett as well.

Also recently bottled a rye strong ale that used Brett Trois and Galaxy hops. That one tasted a little thin at bottling and I was sort of wondering if it would have been better if I had used just normal Sacch yeast. But, after only a week in the bottle, it's amazing. I love it.

 

[terrapinj]

Yup. I was inspired by Chad Yacobson. In an interview he mentioned making a beer (hop savant, I think, which I can't get here and haven't tried) with hops added only after the boil. I used a similar amount of hops in what I called a Zero IBU Brett Trois Imperial IPA.

It's intended to be for a party on September 21st, so will report back later on the story at the end point. At the moment, it tastes nice. It *is* bitter despite using no boil hops. It's a different kind of bitter character, though, with perhaps less depth to it and certainly less harsh. Hop amounts are a touch strange as I used what I had on hand and ran out of Citra.

Recipe is like so:

26 liter batch.

7.00 kg Pale Malt
1.50 kg Wheat, Flaked
0.50 kg Oats, Flaked
160.00 g Nelson Sauvin-2012-whole[12.30 %] - Aroma
135.00 g Chinook-2012-pellets[12.40 %] - Aroma
67.00 g Citra-2012-whole[15.00 %] - Aroma
45.00 g Citra-2012-pellets [14.20 %] - Aroma
Brettanomyces Bruxellensis-White Labs
Brettanomyces Bruxellensis Trois (at larger amount than Brett Brux)

Brewed on 6-22, last tasted on 7-23, at which point the SG was 1.011.

OG 1.075.
SG 1.011 (85% attenuation)

8.5% abv

At the point it's at right now, I liked the normal Brett Trois IPA I made some months back better, but will see how it develops over the next 6 weeks or so. I might not dry hop it, I'll see. If I do, I will dry hop it just before kegging. We might run this through a Randall at the party. Time will tell. Might not so we can taste the fruitiness from the Brett as well.

Also recently bottled a rye strong ale that used Brett Trois and Galaxy hops. That one tasted a little thin at bottling and I was sort of wondering if it would have been better if I had used just normal Sacch yeast. But, after only a week in the bottle, it's amazing. I love it.

his BN interview and discussion of Hop Savant is what prompted me to ask the question.

do you not like the beer as much (at this point) because of the lack of bitterness or for other reasons? I could see it being a concern with a IIPA which needs a good firm bitterness IMO but I'm considering trying it out with an X(trois)PA

 

[dinnerstick]

in a conversation with the only other local brewer i know who uses this brett strain he commented that he does not oxygenate the wort, only oxygenates the huge starter very well, and that this strategy brings out the fruitier side of this strain. i'm just preparing for my second trois brew, my first was a huge success. it was a super fruity IPA, and i oxygenated the the wort as i would for sacc. so i'm curious what everyone else does, or if anyone has done a side-by-side experiment with and without O2. i couldn't find anything on my attempts to search this thread but maybe i missed it? if so please direct me there! and please don't reply if you are going to say that oxygenation and brett gives super sour acetic whatever, since it clearly doesn't with brett as the primary fermenter. thanks!

 

[berebrando]

in a conversation with the only other local brewer i know who uses this brett strain he commented that he does not oxygenate the wort, only oxygenates the huge starter very well, and that this strategy brings out the fruitier side of this strain. i'm just preparing for my second trois brew, my first was a huge success. it was a super fruity IPA, and i oxygenated the the wort as i would for sacc. so i'm curious what everyone else does, or if anyone has done a side-by-side experiment with and without O2. i couldn't find anything on my attempts to search this thread but maybe i missed it? if so please direct me there! and please don't reply if you are going to say that oxygenation and brett gives super sour acetic whatever, since it clearly doesn't with brett as the primary fermenter. thanks!

I've been following this thread since day 1 and I don't think anyone has done any side by sides with/without oxygenation. It would be a worthwhile experiment, if you ask me.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

his BN interview and discussion of Hop Savant is what prompted me to ask the question.

do you not like the beer as much (at this point) because of the lack of bitterness or for other reasons? I could see it being a concern with a IIPA which needs a good firm bitterness IMO but I'm considering trying it out with an X(trois)PA

Naw, it's not the bitterness. I think if I were to do this again, I would ONLY use Brett Trois. I think the mixed culture somewhat diluted the strong fruity character that most people love from Trois. I haven't used Brett Brux on its own to see what impact it had here, though, so can't say for sure.

I think it's worth trying with no boil hops. I will report back in this thread the next time I taste this beer so I can take some better notes.

In mid September, I will be brewing a Saison that I will split into 4 fermenters and will pitch the four Brett strains that White Labs has so that I can see what character each gives for 100% Brett beer so that I can learn their character.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

I've been following this thread since day 1 and I don't think anyone has done any side by sides with/without oxygenation. It would be a worthwhile experiment, if you ask me.

I've used it a few times and while I haven't done any real comparisons, with the latest batch the starter was pretty acetic-sour.

The other times I've made starters in three steps, with a few days between each step, all on the stir plate. Those starters had a slight lemony tartness that was nice and not overblown. With those beers, I used NO oxygen at all and barely shook the fermenter. The resulting beers had no acetic character at all.

With this batch, I made the starter before I went on vacation. I made it maybe 5 or 6 days before going on vacation, left on the stirplate and did two steps. Then when we left, I turned off the stirplate and left it around 72 F while we were gone for 12 days. When I returned there was a massive pellicle and it smelled sour but nice. I left it sit at that same temp for another ten days or something, then chilled, decanted and made a fresh starter to pitch on it. That was left on the stirplate at that same temp, chilled a few days ahead of time and decanted before pitching. I drank a decent amount of that starter. It was acetic. Much more than with other batches. It tasted nice, but the acetic character was actually pretty strong.

Pitched that into another Brett Trois IPA last weekend and will see how the actual beer fares. With that beer I used no oxygen again and barely shook the fermenter, so not much in the way of air in there. I will report back on that later as well to see if this starter resulted in a more acetic beer, but I suspect it will not, that it will end up like the other beers I've made with this yeast.

 

[meltroha]

Tasted my Belgian blonde after 6 days of conditioning, had some carbonation! Nice subtle tropical aroma, with noble hop character, taste followed nose, with a bit of acetic tartness, and a slight alcohol presence, body was medium, with a very balanced finish. A bit more acetic and boozy than I would like. Aroma, mouth feel, hop presence and yeast character spot on!

 

[McCoy]

Just went to my LHBS and they said that this strain isn't currently available from White Labs. How can I get some? I'm a little leery of ordering some from an online shop if it's true that White Labs isn't making it available and it might just be old stock.

 

[meltroha]

Delete post, my phone screwed up, sorry.

 

[meltroha]

I was under the impression it is year round now, when I got mine, just called my lhbs, and they go it in less than a week later. I can't say for sure, but if you do not have a good relationship there, they might be feeding you a line of BS. Several online sites have special packaging, but it need to ship 2 day air, and costs a lot. Try morebeer.com

 

[kaips1]

Just went to my LHBS and they said that this strain isn't currently available from White Labs. How can I get some? I'm a little leery of ordering some from an online shop if it's true that White Labs isn't making it available and it might just be old stock.

They are making it, they may have been on a wait when your store tried to order it. Even old stock can be revived, well honestly since most of them are probably held in a fridge the older the stock the faster Brett dies.

 

[McCoy]

I don't think I have a bad relationship there at least. The shop keepers are super friendly and seem to have a good relationship with everyone. I've actually been pretty blown away by how friendly their staff is. I also don't really see any reason they would have to not want to sell it to me.

Anyhow, MoreBeer does have it. The shipping is as much as the yeast itself, but an extra $6 isn't going to kill me.

 

[dinnerstick]

Pitched that into another Brett Trois IPA last weekend and will see how the actual beer fares. With that beer I used no oxygen again and barely shook the fermenter, so not much in the way of air in there. I will report back on that later as well to see if this starter resulted in a more acetic beer, but I suspect it will not, that it will end up like the other beers I've made with this yeast.

since i also doubt you'll get a more acetic beer (as i don't get acac with a big aerated starter and highly oxygenated wort) but i'm curious if you will notice anything else different, ie. if there is a different overall fruity profile with vs. without oxygen.

on that note, i just made a second batch, same ipa recipe as my first except no oxygen this time, but due to scheduling abnormalities i had to pitch the entire stirplate starter, which is now almost 10% of by beer volume, and that starter was quite funky! more 'normal' brett funk than the acetic smell that i have had in brett starters. curious how this one comes out. i bet fruity and not funky.

cheers

 

[MattHollingsworth]

since i also doubt you'll get a more acetic beer (as i don't get acac with a big aerated starter and highly oxygenated wort) but i'm curious if you will notice anything else different, ie. if there is a different overall fruity profile with vs. without oxygen.

on that note, i just made a second batch, same ipa recipe as my first except no oxygen this time, but due to scheduling abnormalities i had to pitch the entire stirplate starter, which is now almost 10% of by beer volume, and that starter was quite funky! more 'normal' brett funk than the acetic smell that i have had in brett starters. curious how this one comes out. i bet fruity and not funky.

cheers

I bet the same. I haven't experienced any funk with this yeast in primary.

 

[sweetcell]

In mid September, I will be brewing a Saison that I will split into 4 fermenters and will pitch the four Brett strains that White Labs has so that I can see what character each gives for 100% Brett beer so that I can learn their character.

that sounds like an awesome experiment. please let us know how it goes, i'd love to hear of your results.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

that sounds like an awesome experiment. please let us know how it goes, i'd love to hear of your results.

I'll report back for sure, but obviously it will be some time before I have anything to post. I'll start a new thread for that one.

 

[chadkarol]

To add to an interesting thread, I brewed a French Saison using Wyeast 3711. I then transferred it to a wine barrel that had white wine it in and let it sit about a month. Yesterday I transferred it to a carboy, added pureed cherry and WLP644. No idea what's going to happen, which is why I love brewing.

 

[bovineblitz]

I don't think I have a bad relationship there at least. The shop keepers are super friendly and seem to have a good relationship with everyone. I've actually been pretty blown away by how friendly their staff is. I also don't really see any reason they would have to not want to sell it to me.

Anyhow, MoreBeer does have it. The shipping is as much as the yeast itself, but an extra $6 isn't going to kill me.

If you're ordering just one thing I generally find Rebel Brewer to have the best price/shipping combo.

 

[Tiroux]

I just transfered my wlp644 DIPA (citra, Galaxy, Zythos) after 4.5weeks. I'll now DH it for few days before bottling. The aroma is awesome. Peach, mango, pineapple, apricot, the taste is fine, but there's definitly a funky side. Not sour at all, but there's a woody-smoky-leathery flavor behind the fruit. It isn't bad at all but I would have expected something more clean. I'll see when it's bottled, carbed and chilled!

 

[Tiroux]

I just transfered my wlp644 DIPA (citra, Galaxy, Zythos) after 4.5weeks. I'll now DH it for few days before bottling. The aroma is awesome. Peach, mango, pineapple, apricot, the taste is fine, but there's definitly a funky side. Not sour at all, but there's a woody-smoky-leathery flavor behind the fruit. It isn't bad at all but I would have expected something more clean. I'll see when it's bottled, carbed and chilled!

I tasted again.. and it's not that smoky after all.. it's more like a spicy phenolic with a dry woody finish. Combined to the alcool kick (9%), it might be percieved a bit solvent-like, at first... Do you know where it could come from? Too much oxygen? Fermented too hot? (from 72 to 77)

 

[Xpertskir]

Yesterday I brewed an IPA and pitched lager counts of BBT and its already bubbling away this morning(and didn't even oxygenate or aerate). So much for increased lag time.

Fermenting at ~68. Look forward to this beer.

 

[m00se]

~3wk into primary and gravity down to 1.020 from 1.060 on a 100% Brett Trois IPA I made. Doesn't Trois usually go down to 1.010ish?


Wondering if I didn't pitch enough yeast. I stepped up starter twice on stir plate ending up with about 1600ml starter. Mashed at 153F. Fermented at 72F

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 59.3 %
4 lbs Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 29.6 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.4 %
1.25 oz Pacific Jade [14.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 51.2 IBUs
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 5 -
1.10 mg Wort Chiller (Boil 15.0 mins) Other 6 -
8.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) [Boil for 15 min]( Sugar 7 3.7 %
2.00 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min Hop 8 0.0 IBUs
1.50 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg BRETTANOMYCES BRUXELLENSIS TROIS (White Yeast 10 -

 

[meltroha]

I did a 1l shake method starter, and mine went from 1.069- 1.006 in 6 weeks, I'd just give it time, this strain can go 6-7 weeks from what I've been reading here.

 

[kaips1]

~3wk into primary and gravity down to 1.020 from 1.060 on a 100% Brett Trois IPA I made. Doesn't Trois usually go down to 1.010ish?

Wondering if I didn't pitch enough yeast. I stepped up starter twice on stir plate ending up with about 1600ml starter. Mashed at 153F. Fermented at 72F

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 59.3 %
4 lbs Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 29.6 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.4 %
1.25 oz Pacific Jade [14.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 51.2 IBUs
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 5 -
1.10 mg Wort Chiller (Boil 15.0 mins) Other 6 -
8.0 oz Corn Sugar (Dextrose) [Boil for 15 min]( Sugar 7 3.7 %
2.00 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min Hop 8 0.0 IBUs
1.50 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg BRETTANOMYCES BRUXELLENSIS TROIS (White Yeast 10 -

Or you can transfer it into a secondary and it will kick back up the fermentation. Numerous reports of Brett re-activating after any transfer, no matter if its from ferm vessel to vessel or to bottle.

 

[Ailstock]

Just brewed an IPA with this yeast. Had a healthy 1000ml starter going for a couple weeks and pitched it into a 3 gallon carboy. Split the other half and fermented it with wyeast 1056 as a control.
I'm excited to see how this turns out.

 

[Matteo57]

Any thoughts on using this strain in a 100% all brett Grapefruit IPA? Was thinking of using a lot of centennial and cascade in it. Maybe a slight touch of citra, but not sure yet.
I haven't used this strain yet and never done a 100% brett beer. I have read this thread and keep hearing a lot about the tropical fruit flavors of this strain and wonder if that would clash with the grapefruit flavors of the hops and fruit....
Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[kaips1]

Any thoughts on using this strain in a 100% all brett Grapefruit IPA? Was thinking of using a lot of centennial and cascade in it. Maybe a slight touch of citra, but not sure yet.
I haven't used this strain yet and never done a 100% brett beer. I have read this thread and keep hearing a lot about the tropical fruit flavors of this strain and wonder if that would clash with the grapefruit flavors of the hops and fruit....
Any thoughts?

Thanks!

When you say a lot, you mean a half lb? Or less? You gotta watch you addition times, Brett can really intensify the bite from hops. if you want a lot of hop aroma and flavor, do 10, 5, whirlpool additions. If you dry hop, that's when I'd suggest the citra and it should work well with the grapefruit. Grapefruit is pretty acidic and will add a potential sourish bite.

 

[Matteo57]

Well, when I made it with cal ale, in a 10g batch, I used a total of about 9oz brewing it and 4oz DH so not a TON but not light either.
I don't really want a lot of a sourish bite I don't think to the IPA....I love sour beers, just not sure if that's what i would want to go for in this beer... I want more of the refreshing grapefruit flavors, not so much a sour grapefruit bite.
I brew a coconut ipa which I really enjoy also and I think maybe with all of the tropical flavors in the bret trois, maybe using it for that instead and just sticking with the 001 for the grapefruit.

 

[flyingfinbar]

I had one of my trois pale ales last night that I brewed 8 months ago. It's still fantastically aromatic and CLEAR. I've never brewed a beer this clear. The taste is clean, fruity, and there's still tons of Nelson Sauvin, galaxy, and citra hop flavor and aroma. What a strange, beautiful yeast.

 

[Brulosopher]

I think I'll keg up my Trois Blonde, brewed 8/2, this Friday...