WLP644 -Brett B Trois

[Oldsock]

It's hard to find good judges. It's especially hard to find good judges for every competition.

That being said, how many people even know of this strain of yeast? And how many of those people are judging in comps? I wish there was a better way of educating the BJCP, but with it being a volunteer based organization, it's kind of hard.

Apparently the BJCP is considering adding some sort of American Sours category, eventually. I encouraged them to add a 100% Brett style as part of it, with clear guidelines of what sort of flavors to expect.

 

[uright]

Lots of great information in this thread!

I contacted Whitelabs for some information on wlp644 yesterday. According to John at whitelabs wlp644 is packaged with 50-80 Million cells/ml. Also, that the production date is 4 months prior to the expiration date, just like their standard yeasts.

I recently got gifted two vials that expired in the middle of November that I'm hoping to propagate up to a 5.5g 100% Brett pitch. It's my understanding that a Brett starter will nearly triple it's cell count in 7-8 days. Is that a fair guestament?

It would be great to hear from someone with experience propagating this yeast.

 

[WilliamWS]

When making a starter for my RIS that I did a month ago I feel like the 644 worked pretty fast. I left it on the stir plate longer than I normally would for sacc but not 7-8 days, probably more like four days each time I stepped it up.

I never did a cell count but after stepping it up a couple of times I had what seemed to be plenty of yeast for 5gal of 1.094 wort. Fermentation was going crazy within a few hours, it dropped my gravity by 60 points in two days. After a week my RIS was down to 1.027 and over the course of the following 10 days it went to 1.023. It's been stable there for a couple of weeks so I'll probably bottle next week and give it a few months.

 

[bogwart]

When making a starter for my RIS that I did a month ago I feel like the 644 worked pretty fast. I left it on the stir plate longer than I normally would for sacc but not 7-8 days, probably more like four days each time I stepped it up.

I never did a cell count but after stepping it up a couple of times I had what seemed to be plenty of yeast for 5gal of 1.094 wort. Fermentation was going crazy within a few hours, it dropped my gravity by 60 points in two days. After a week my RIS was down to 1.027 and over the course of the following 10 days it went to 1.023. It's been stable there for a couple of weeks so I'll probably bottle next week and give it a few months.

You should wait and check the gravity over the course of a few weeks. Mine went from a 1.010 after around four weeks to a 1.006 at six weeks. It stabilized there and I bottled it at eight weeks. So, give it some more time.

 

[Coff]

Has any experienced long bottle conditioning times with this strain? Ive had my Petite Saison in bottles for 7 weeks now and the beer is low on carb and no tastes a bit sweet, almost under attenuated which I am assuming is the rest of the priming solution bc it was bone dry going into the bottles.

I will admit however, it is a consistent 61f in my cellar atm which i know is a bit cool for bottle conditioning so I expected it to take a little longer but I thought it would be done by now. I grabbed a 6 pack and stuck it in the closet on my 3rd floor which is 72f so I'll give that a week or 2 and check it out.

 

[highgravitybacon]

Has any experienced long bottle conditioning times with this strain? Ive had my Petite Saison in bottles for 7 weeks now and the beer is low on carb and no tastes a bit sweet, almost under attenuated which I am assuming is the rest of the priming solution bc it was bone dry going into the bottles.

I will admit however, it is a consistent 61f in my cellar atm which i know is a bit cool for bottle conditioning so I expected it to take a little longer but I thought it would be done by now. I grabbed a 6 pack and stuck it in the closet on my 3rd floor which is 72f so I'll give that a week or 2 and check it out.

No, in fact I'm thinking I have a series of bottle IEDs waiting. I had a berliner weisse I bottled at 1.004 with some brett in half and no brett in the other half. I drank one of each tonight. The non brett was still a little undercarbed, and kind of sweet. No issues with it, except not very sour. They were about 2 weeks in the bottle sitting on a warm blanket at about 80F.

The brett beer, another story. I knew straight away I had issues when, upon opening, it sounded like someone disconnecting a train car. Massive gusher. Like about a minute. The beer was very mildly funky dry as a bone. So dry the hydrometer just sank right to the bottom of the test cylinder because I didn't put enough sample in. Both were carbed to 3.7 vol with table sugar. People are always saying "Oh, brett produces half the co2 as regular yeast." Bull****. The only difference in the two bottles was the presence of brett. So it's obviously the brett doing it.

 

[WilliamWS]

If you packaged in Belgian style bottles or something similar then you're definitely fine.
Anything over 3.25-3.5 makes me nervous in regular bottles, though. IIR, regular bottles max out around 4.5 under ideal conditions but I think we've all seen bottles with flaws and I've heard of cases where they've supposedly gone off under 4.

 

[loctones]

Does anyone have any experience using this in secondary? I intended to do an all-brett beer with this, but life got in the way. So, I pitched the vial into a batch of old ale that I've been aging. It's coming up on 5 months now. I took a sample a couple of months ago. The brett definitely did it's thing on attenuation, but not much in the flavor department. The added alcohol from the secondary fermentation made it taste harsh, actually. It definitely needed more time. I'm trying to let it get to 6 months before I take another sample.

 

[dstar26t]

Lots of great information in this thread!

I contacted Whitelabs for some information on wlp644 yesterday. According to John at whitelabs wlp644 is packaged with 50-80 Million cells/ml. Also, that the production date is 4 months prior to the expiration date, just like their standard yeasts.

I recently got gifted two vials that expired in the middle of November that I'm hoping to propagate up to a 5.5g 100% Brett pitch. It's my understanding that a Brett starter will nearly triple it's cell count in 7-8 days. Is that a fair guestament?

It would be great to hear from someone with experience propagating this yeast.

Go back to post #81 in this thread for cell counts. Some additional info I'll add that may help you is that on 10/31, I took 2 vials dated November and made a 1.040 240mL starter. It grew up to 104 Billion cells.

I've talked with John at White Labs too and I believe he doesn't have the correct information. He told me the same thing about cell count and expiration date for Brett well over a year ago. I believe they put a 6 month date on their Brett vials versus the standard 4 month. I had a vial of their WLP650 last year that would have been made 1 month in the future using the 4 month rule. All the Brett Trois that was produced this year was made in May which is obviously 6 months from the November date that is on all the vials I've seen, some of which I bought in May.

 

[spenghali]

If you packaged in Belgian style bottles or something similar then you're definitely fine.
Anything over 3.25-3.5 makes me nervous in regular bottles, though. IIR, regular bottles max out around 4.5 under ideal conditions but I think we've all seen bottles with flaws and I've heard of cases where they've supposedly gone off under 4.

Most people don't go over 3 volumes in standard bottles. It also differs a bit by brand, you can get a sense by weighing your different bottles and doing a weight to volume ratio. If you are reusing commercial bottles the maximum pressure will decrease after every use from the stress it goes through (and your new homebrew bottles for that matter).

 

[igotsand]

Go back to post #81 in this thread for cell counts. Some additional info I'll add that may help you is that on 10/31, I took 2 vials dated November and made a 1.040 240mL starter. It grew up to 104 Billion cells.

I've talked with John at White Labs too and I believe he doesn't have the correct information. He told me the same thing about cell count and expiration date for Brett well over a year ago. I believe they put a 6 month date on their Brett vials versus the standard 4 month. I had a vial of their WLP650 last year that would have been made 1 month in the future using the 4 month rule. All the Brett Trois that was produced this year was made in May which is obviously 6 months from the November date that is on all the vials I've seen, some of which I bought in May.

I got some brett trois that's exp date is Jan 6 2013...got it from white labs tasting room...
So maybe made 2 batches?
Igotsand

 

[highgravitybacon]

Most people don't go over 3 volumes in standard bottles. It also differs a bit by brand, you can get a sense by weighing your different bottles and doing a weight to volume ratio. If you are reusing commercial bottles the maximum pressure will decrease after every use from the stress it goes through (and your new homebrew bottles for that matter).

I have done 3.5 vol, 3.7 vol intentionally and 4 vol by accident before without any problems. These are in mish mash brands of bottles. All reused commercial ones.

 

[dstar26t]

I got some brett trois that's exp date is Jan 6 2013...got it from white labs tasting room...
So maybe made 2 batches?
Igotsand

Good to know, sounds like they did, thanks for posting. I'd love to get out to their tasting room...jealous.

 

[Quaker]

I've gotten distracted by barley wine recipes, so this starter is going to sleep for a bit. I also have a near full keg of pale ale on tap and another in waiting. So I don't need to worry about my hoppy pipeline for a bit.

Last weekend I finally got around to brewing my beer. It is basically a re-brew of the first brett Countdown Blond I did in the summer. This time I added rye for a more substantial mouthfeel, added crystal malts for a bit of sweetness, and I will avoid the lacto which thinned it out way too much.

30% Pils (4lbs)
22.5% Vienna (3lbs)
15% Malted Wheat (2lbs)
7.5% Munich (1lb)

7.5% Malted Rye (1lb)
7.5% Rolled Oats (1lb)
9% Crystal 55 and Honey Malt, because I had a little of each left over from other beers.

Hops are an equal parts blend of Pacific Jade/Cascade/Amarillo (last time was Pacific Jade bittern and flavor, Amarillo late addition, and Cascade dry hop). Wanted to up the hop flavor this time. Still kept bitterness low (29IBU), since I also apricots which add to the bitterness. All late additions.

45g (15g each) @ 15 minutes
45g flameout
45g dry hop - yet to be done, closer to serving time.

OG was 1.046 (horrid efficiency). I just pulled the starter from the fridge from a few weeks earlier and pitched it without waking it up. Results showed. After a week it was only down to 1.020. Nothing near the fast and furious fermentation from my prior 2 batches where I had a heartier and more active pitch. I needed to free up the primary (my kettle), so I kegged it. I sliced up 500g of dried apricots and put in hop sacks. And I connected a blow-off tube to the gas-out post.

I used dried apricots this time, because I ended up with a harsh astringency in the first batch which I'm guessing was from the apricot and mango pits and skins.

There is still quite active fermentation based on the blow-off activity. I'll let that simmer a bit, then remove the blow-off tube and let it build some pressure on its own. I fly back to the States for the holidays, so this one will sit until next year.

Based on the taste at racking, I really like the hop blend with this grist. It had a real spiciness (maybe accentuated by the rye) along with the fruit. Looking forward to this one.

 

[Gear101]

I'm making a start of this today, too use in a brown.

 

[badlee]

I did mine
10 litres
2lbs each of munich,vienna and pale
250gr flaked wheat 200gr crystal wheat and 50 gr carafa 3
Mashed at 69c for an hour.
Hopped with an oz of Zythos at 15,10 and 5.
Pitched at 8 in the morning ant wen out. Came back 30 hours later to find the krausen subsided and my house taken over by ripe fruit hoppy maltyness. I cant wait to drink it.

 

[flyingfinbar]

I did mine
10 litres
2lbs each of munich,vienna and pale
250gr flaked wheat 200gr crystal wheat and 50 gr carafa 3
Mashed at 69c for an hour.
Hopped with an oz of Zythos at 15,10 and 5.
Pitched at 8 in the morning ant wen out. Came back 30 hours later to find the krausen subsided and my house taken over by ripe fruit hoppy maltyness. I cant wait to drink it.

It was a stinky one, wasn't it? Not a bad stinky, but definitely my most aromatic fermentation yet.

 

[badlee]

you mean mindblowingly intense on the nose? Hell yeah:rockin:

 

[smokinghole]

After having this in bottles for almost two months, I'm not impressed with it in a low gravity saison wort. It's plain tasting and lacks complexity. Very simple tasting. It's not bad by any means it's just not what I expect in my 10 plato saison wort.

 

[dstar26t]

A buddy of mine brewed a Saison with 3711 and we bottled it with Trois at 1 million cells/mL. I'm curious to see what it does in a few months. He gave me a bottle and I doubt he will have the will power to save any so I'll age it for him.

I'm doing an IPA next weekend fermented with Trois. Lots of protein in the recipe and lots of Citra, Amarillo and Centennial. I'd really like to try Nelson Sauvin with Trois, seems like they'd go well together. I have a lot of the 2011 harvest hops to use up still though.

Over Christmas, I bottled a year old Spelt Lambic (ECY20), Kriek, Brett B+C+L Pale Ale and a ECY04 Pale Ale, all bottle primed with Trois. Very excited to try all of them!

Nate

 

[Almighty]

smokinghole - I had the same experience with my Table Saison with 100% Brett Drie - I really think it has something to do with the sugar complexity in the wort.

dstar26t - Nelson and Trois (Drie) are very complementary - they basically build on each other. I think Citra and Amarillo will do similar with the melon from Citra and tangerine from Amarillo.
And your other beers sound great. Any standouts or recommendations.

 

[smokinghole]

smokinghole - I had the same experience with my Table Saison with 100% Brett Drie - I really think it has something to do with the sugar complexity in the wort.

dstar26t - Nelson and Trois (Drie) are very complementary - they basically build on each other. I think Citra and Amarillo will do similar with the melon from Citra and tangerine from Amarillo.
And your other beers sound great. Any standouts or recommendations.

You might be onto something. I will say this though I make 100% grain saisons and I do not cut them with sugar to reach my attenuation that's whyI use high temps and brett. Anyhow I might consider using it in something else that has crystal malts and the sort in there to see how it turns out. Maybe my next cask beer will be a 100% trois ESB or something along those lines. Everyone seems to really dig the beers they made with trois except me. So I'll give it another shot.

 

[dstar26t]

And your other beers sound great. Any standouts or recommendations.

The pre-bottling samples were good on all except for some of the Kriek. The 11.5 gallon batch of base Kriek beer was split between ECY04 and Wyeast 5112 after primary with WLP530. I wound up dumping the ECY04 portion. It had taken on a strong nail polish aroma. Too bad that was after adding 3 pounds of dried cherries and then later some Lacto and Pedio. The Wyeast 5112 portion also got 3 pounds of dried cherries and some Pedio and Lacto, turned out great.

The Brett B+C+L Pale Ale is my favorite. It has some Lacto and Pedio in it too. Very reminiscent of sour patch kids but not overly sour. Very cool flavor. It was mostly Wyeast 5112 with some White Labs 645 & 653. That original wort was split with ECY04 too and the ECY half is not nearly as complex.

The Spelt Lambic with ECY20 was turbid mashed (raw spelt) to give the bacteria some food (starch) to work on when all the sugar was eaten up. It turned out really nice. Smelled like Gueuze in the house while bottling, it needs some time to develop and loose the sulfur note. Should be good in 6 months.

 

[Coff]

My Table Saison with Trois has been in bottles since the first week or November and I have the same impressions you guys have, its just kind of meh. I brewed a 15 gallon batch and split it into 3 fermenters with 3 different yeasts, the 565 and 566 versions were fantastic but Trois tastes under attenuated although it finished pretty dry.

 

[bogwart]

After having this in bottles for almost two months, I'm not impressed with it in a low gravity saison wort. It's plain tasting and lacks complexity. Very simple tasting. It's not bad by any means it's just not what I expect in my 10 plato saison wort.

I agree with you here. Mine tastes dry and has the cidery "too much simple sugar" flavor even though no simple sugars were used. Also, mine has been in the bottle since September and still has very low carbonation. It ended at 1.006 and I primed just as I would with any other beer.

 

[WilliamWS]

Anyone else have any issues with carbonation? I'm bottling a 9.7% RIS brewed with 100% Trois in the next couple of days. Anybody with much experience with Trois think I'll have carb issues without repitching?

 

[smokinghole]

My beer carbed up just fine. Nice and effervescent as I planned.

 

[pohldogg]

Just carbed up a 9% dipa with trois. Pretty much full carbonation in 2 weeks. Was only in fermenter for 3 weeks so pretty fresh yeast.

 

[WilliamWS]

My beer carbed up just fine. Nice and effervescent as I planned.

Just to be clear, any sacc in your beer?

 

[othellomcbane]

My beer carbed up just fine. Nice and effervescent as I planned.

My 100% Trois beers carbed fine as well. Didn't take extra time either. Plus, there was the added benefit of the yeast dropping hard once carbed — my two Trois beers have been my clearest brews out of the bottle to date.