Wiring schematic help

[BigJay13]

Hi All,

I bought a partially built panel off another HBTer and want to change the plans. I, however, don’t have the experience to plan out the diagram effectively. I attached what I’ve been working with: 240V 50A panel with two pumps and two 5500v elements. The original plan was to run the HLT PID as normal, to run a pump off the mash PID to control mash temp through a herms coil,’and the boil PID is just a dial controller without a temp readout.

i have a two level stand with the HLT above the mashtun with a port draining directly into it. I would like to power a 120V RIMS tube instead of a pump to control mash temp with the pump running off the switch. I’ll keep the 5500v elements in the HLT and BK.

I need help determining the size of the breakers needed; how to take the MLT PID and make it work as a stand alone unit all while making the wort pump switch work with a push button; as a bonus I have an alarm and the tower of power flow meter I’d like to hook up and could use the water pump bottom on the face of the box for that.

I can follow directions I just can’t design them haha.

 

[doug293cz]

...

i have a two level stand with the HLT above the mashtun with a port draining directly into it. I would like to power a 120V RIMS tube instead of a pump to control mash temp with the pump running off the switch. I’ll keep the 5500v elements in the HLT and BK.

I need help determining the size of the breakers needed; how to take the MLT PID and make it work as a stand alone unit all while making the wort pump switch work with a push button; as a bonus I have an alarm and the tower of power flow meter I’d like to hook up and could use the water pump bottom on the face of the box for that.

...

You will not be able to run two 5500W elements and a third element at the same time on a 50A circuit. Therefore, you will need to add a selector switch that allows only two of the elements to be enabled at one time. IIRC this can be done with an Auber SW3 three way switch with two NO and two NC contact blocks. You will still need to have the individual element enable switches for each element.

The RIMS control portion of the system will be wired similar to the HLT control portion, except it will have one hot and neutral instead of two hots. It will only need a single pole circuit breaker on the one hot. The rating of the breaker will depend on the power of the element chosen for the RIMS. The (third) SSR will control the hot wire to the RIMS element. You will also have to route the power to the RIMS element enable switch thru the RIMS pump switch so that the element cannot be enabled unless the pump is on.

When you say you want the wort pump to work with a push button, do you mean a momentary contact, so that the pump only runs while the button is held in?

Not sure what you mean with the phrase highlighted in red.

Brew on

 

[BigJay13]

Thank you for the reply! If I ran a 60amp gfci bow could I forgo the three way switch?

I’ll snap pics of the flow meter and the alarm because I realize that would be helpful. Basically I want the flow meter to kill power to the element when the flow drops to prevent scorching. The alarm would buzz letting me know the flow dropped.

 

[doug293cz]

A 60A feed would support up to a 1000W RIMS element running along side of two 5500W elements. A 60A feed will also require 4AWG wire for structure wiring and panel feed cord. I think adding the three way switch would be cheaper than the heavier wiring. Or, you could leave out the three way switch and just let the breaker trip if you forget and turn all three elements on at once (and you will do this.)

I'll see if I can find the diagram that shows how to wire the 3-way switch.

Brew on

 

[BigJay13]

Ha I was thinking of just letting the breaker trip when I screw up! I was just given a 1500w 120v element that I’ll try in the rims tube for now. I’ll stick with the 50AMP service and just make it work.

 

[RufusBrewer]

IMHO A proper design does not rely solely on the breaker to operate as required.

If you never ever want a constitution to exist and you can prevent that condition with a switch, then purchase and install the switch.

 

[doug293cz]

This is what the "Any 2 of 3" switch wiring looks like:

When the switch is in the:

Down position: Elements 1 & 2 are enabled​

Center position: Elements 2 & 3 are enabled​

Up position: Elements 1 & 3 are enabled​

​

Brew on

 

[BigJay13]

So I ended up scraping the rims tube idea and am doing it as designed as a Herms system. I have the whole thing wired but I want to test everything before I get the power to it. What is the best way/protocol for checking everything?

 

[doug293cz]

So I ended up scraping the rims tube idea and am doing it as designed as a Herms system. I have the whole thing wired but I want to test everything before I get the power to it. What is the best way/protocol for checking everything?

This advice is too late to help you, but the best way is to build incrementally, from the power input side, and test as you build. For example, wire up the main power switch (including any safe start switches) and main power contactor coil, but don't connect the output side of the main contactor yet. Then test that the power up circuitry works (contactor operates and provides voltage on its output terminals.) Then proceed to add one piece of functionality at a time and test it (e.g. add a PID and check that it powers up and reads temps correctly.) Continue in a logical sequence.

Note that element firing lamps in parallel with the elements will light up even when the SSR's are off, if the elements are not connected to the control panel outputs.

If you have everything put together before you start testing, then get a copy of the design, and trace each wire from end to end. Check each wire off on the design copy as you verify it. With a multimeter, and power disconnected, you can check that each pair of switch contacts behaves as expected. Check continuity from the far ends of the wires connected to the switch terminals, so as to also verify the wires are connected.

Brew on

 

[BigJay13]

Thanks Doug! Started doing it and when I tested the boil and HLT contactors themselves they came back as open loop. Everything else, so far, seems to be functioning as usual. Before I pull my hair out does that sound normal?

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks Doug! Started doing it and when I tested the boil and HLT contactors themselves they came back as open loop. Everything else, so far, seems to be functioning as usual. Before I pull my hair out does that sound normal?

Need to know details about how you actually tested the BK & HLT contactors to answer your question.

Brew on

 

[BigJay13]

I literally put one electrode on the incoming red wire and one on the outgoing wire on either side of the contactor. Everything else on either side of the contactor is good to go so far.

 

[doug293cz]

I literally put one electrode on the incoming red wire and one on the outgoing wire on either side of the contactor. Everything else on either side of the contactor is good to go so far.

Was the contactor coil energized? If not, then you should read open across the contactor contact pairs.

Brew on

 

[BigJay13]

Was the contactor coil energized? If not, then you should read open across the contactor contact pairs.

Brew on

No it wasn’t. Didn’t want to energize it without checking things first. Also I don’t have the power supply finished yet. I’m also a little leary about having 220 open and energized while I have my hands inside the panel. If possible I’d rather test things without the power on.

 

[BigJay13]

Ok folks...I’ve got the spa panel wired up showing 240 across the breaker heading out to the brew panel. I’ve got 240 going into the contactor from the main plug. I do not have 240 leaving the main contactor and I’m not getting any juice past that contactor. I’ve attached some pictures and the schematic I went off is at the top of this thread. Everything tested out as it should before being energized.

 

[doug293cz]

Sounds like power is not getting to the main contactor coil, or the main contactor is defective. When the main power switch is turned on, you should measure 120V if you probe the A1 & A2 terminals of the main contactor. If you have 120V, then the main contactor is probably bad. If you don't have 120V, then something is wrong in the wiring that is supposed to supply power to the main contactor coil. Since you appear to have the "safe start" interlock, you need to make sure all pump and element enable switches are off before trying to turn on the main power.

Brew on

 

[BigJay13]

Sounds like power is not getting to the main contactor coil, or the main contactor is defective. When the main power switch is turned on, you should measure 120V if you probe the A1 & A2 terminals of the main contactor. If you have 120V, then the main contactor is probably bad. If you don't have 120V, then something is wrong in the wiring that is supposed to supply power to the main contactor coil. Since you appear to have the "safe start" interlock, you need to make sure all pump and element enable switches are off before trying to turn on the main power.

Brew on

I just measured--I have 240 across black/red going into the bottom of the contactor coil. I have 0V across A1& A2 as well as 0V when I measure black/red across the contactor. If I am reading the schematic correctly (I do not have any experience other than this project, btw), the flow of energy should start at the bottom of the coil and flow through it, before being dispersed throughout the panel, through the main switch and safe start--correct? Or do I have that wrong.

 

[doug293cz]

A contactor is nothing but a high current, electromagnetic relay. Powering the coil closes the contacts on the relay.

The A1/A2 terminals are the coil terminals for the contactor. With 0 V across A1/A2, the coil is not energized, and the high current contacts are open. You have to have 120 V across A1/A2 to energize the coil, which will cause the high current contacts to close, and give you power to the output side of the contactor.

Here's a diagram that shows whats inside of a contactor:

​

​

The contactor is shown with 0 V across the coil, so the two switches are open. If you have voltage on the fat wires on the left of the pic, there will be no voltage on the fat wires on the right of the pic. Putting voltage on the coil will close the switches, and give you voltage on the fat wires on the right of the pic.

Your problem appears to be with the part of the circuit that is supposed to apply voltage to the contactor coil (A1/A2 terminals.) Power for the coil comes thru the safe start circuit & relay before the main power is turned on. After the main power has been turned on, then the safe start relay is latched on, bypassing all of the switched in the safe start circuit (so they can be turned on for brewing operations.)

Given your level of electrical knowledge, you would do well to bring in a friend, co-worker, etc., that is familiar with electrical equipment, to help you trouble shoot. If you don't understand what the different components do, and how they are supposed to work together, debugging is going to be extremely difficult.

Brew on

 

[BigJay13]

A contactor is nothing but a high current, electromagnetic relay. Powering the coil closes the contacts on the relay.

The A1/A2 terminals are the coil terminals for the contactor. With 0 V across A1/A2, the coil is not energized, and the high current contacts are open. You have to have 120 V across A1/A2 to energize the coil, which will cause the high current contacts to close, and give you power to the output side of the contactor.

Here's a diagram that shows whats inside of a contactor:

​

​

The contactor is shown with 0 V across the coil, so the two switches are open. If you have voltage on the fat wires on the left of the pic, there will be no voltage on the fat wires on the right of the pic. Putting voltage on the coil will close the switches, and give you voltage on the fat wires on the right of the pic.

Your problem appears to be with the part of the circuit that is supposed to apply voltage to the contactor coil (A1/A2 terminals.) Power for the coil comes thru the safe start circuit & relay before the main power is turned on. After the main power has been turned on, then the safe start relay is latched on, bypassing all of the switched in the safe start circuit (so they can be turned on for brewing operations.)

Given your level of electrical knowledge, you would do well to bring in a friend, co-worker, etc., that is familiar with electrical equipment, to help you trouble shoot. If you don't understand what the different components do, and how they are supposed to work together, debugging is going to be extremely difficult.

Brew on

Yeah I wish I had someone here! This is helpful i didn’t realize how the contactor worked. I do believe I have something miswired somewhere so I am going to go back through and check everything again.

 

[BigJay13]

Yeah I wish I had someone here! This is helpful i didn’t realize how the contactor worked. I do believe I have something miswired somewhere so I am going to go back through and check everything again.

I did indeed miswire a few things. I’ve got two of the three PIDs running, both pumps, the safe start is working as it should, but I need help with one PID. It is reading .3 V where the hot and neutral lines come in. I need some advice on how to trouble shoot. It is the HLT PID. TIA!

 

[doug293cz]

Trace the black power wire that goes to the non-functioning PID. Check the voltage at the opposite end of the wire from the PID. It should be 120V relative to gnd or neutral. If the far end of the wire is at 120V, then there is an internal break in the wire. If the opposite end is not at 120V, then you need to trace back from there.

Brew on

 

[BigJay13]

Thanks Doug! You’ve been a big help!

 

[BigJay13]

I got the PID running...a loose connection on the neutral fixed it. Now I have another issue.
The SSRs I have list L1/T1 and L2/T2 instead of 1-4 like is on many wiring schematics for brew panels. I have 240 going through the breakers in-line heading to the SSR. After the SSR for both the HLT and BK I lose voltage. I think the SSRs are wired incorrectly but I can’t find the right diagram online. With the BK at 100% I should have 240 heading through the SSR, correct?

 

[Tartan1]

With the BK at 100% I should have 240 heading through the SSR, correct?

According to the schematic you have posted above your L1 (120VAC) will feed one side of your contactor(s) feeding (HLT BK) and L2 (120VAC) will be controlled thru the SSR Pins 1 & 2. You should only see 120VAC thru the SSR Pins 1 & 2 when control voltage is applied thru pins 3 & 4 in this instance and not 240VAC. There is only 1 leg being controlled. Your measured voltage at the contactor across L1 and L2 will be 240VAC when load is applied.

 

[BigJay13]

According to the schematic you have posted above your L1 (120VAC) will feed one side of your contactor(s) feeding (HLT BK) and L2 (120VAC) will be controlled thru the SSR Pins 1 & 2. You should only see 120VAC thru the SSR Pins 1 & 2 when control voltage is applied thru pins 3 & 4 in this instance and not 240VAC. There is only 1 leg being controlled. Your measured voltage at the contactor across L1 and L2 will be 240VAC when load is applied.

ok—the SSRs were partially wired already incorrectly so that would explain why they aren’t working. I had narrowed it down to the SSRs not controlling the power correctly so that makes sense. I’ve got the day off so I’ll give it another shot a little later.

 

[BigJay13]

So I’ve got the line in going to L1, line out to contactor on t1. White neutral on L2 and the black 22 gauge (purple on the schematic) on T2. Is that correct? I have 120V in L1 but I’ve got 10V on T1. Im assuming Ive got issues with my PID wiring? What should 6 and 7 read off the boil PID?

 

[Tartan1]

Not sure I'm following? Control voltage for the Auber DSPR1 pins 6(+) and 7(-) will be DCV usually between 3-32VDC, I'm not familiar with the DSPR1 but a quick google search looks like it might be 12VDC. Terminals 6 & 7 need to be connected to the appropriate control side of the SSR. Referring to the above diagram L2 (Red line) is the line that is switched thru the SSR.

 

[BigJay13]

A quick update—I messaged the local home brew group that I just joined (virtually due to Covid) and a very nice guy has been helping me troubleshoot. Long story short, the relays were not functioning so I have two new inkbird relays on order. Hopefully this gets me over the hump!