Will it mash at pH ~5.00?

[dmtaylor]

I'm still waiting for someone to definitively prove that the old timers of yore took their mash pH sample readings at mash temperature.

The following excerpt from Briggs et. al. is what we need to "trust but verify":

"The pH of mash or wort alters with the temperature. At 65˚C (149˚F) the pH of mash will be about 0.35 unit less than at 18˚C (65˚F), owing to the greater dissociation of the acidic buffer substances present. Therefore, enzymes whose pH optima are known from determination at 20˚C (68˚F) appear to have higher pH optima in the mash if this is cooled, as is usual, before pH determination. An infusion mash is best carried at pH 5.2-5.4. Consequently, the pH in the cooled wort [from this mash] will be 5.5-5.8."

https://byo.com/mr-wizard/setting-record-straight-mash-ph/

 

[Smellyglove]

If I'm understanding everything correctly (a big if!), we've been mashing at 5.2-5.3 per the calculators when we should have been mashing at 5.5-5.6 per the calculators, for ideal results.

FWIW, I think 5.2-5.3 is probably still perfectly acceptable for styles where a lighter body/less malt presence is desirable, eg. sours and saisons. But for English ales, stouts, German styles I'm going to try the higher end in the future.

I once again got the pH/temp wrong. If you scroll up to see what you answered to.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Since the intent for this thread has been trashed already, and appears unlikely to get back on track, allow me to continue (trashing it). Unless your meter was designed to be used in conjunction with a magnetic stir bar (as for some bench models) there is also a need to do no stirring and let the meter probe sit for a few minutes in a still sample (after an initial gentle stir) so as to not get a false low pH reading from stirring error. A stirred sample will generally exhibit a noticeably lower pH reading than one allowed to sit still for a few minutes. Never trust the "stabilized" reading indicator on a pH meter.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Sorry for sidetracking the thread!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Sorry for sidetracking the thread!

No worries.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I'm getting more confused by every reply I receive now

I am thinking my best bet moving forward is to mix grain with water and throw in hot rocks and hope for beer.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Not sure how anyone thinks pH readings are done at anything but room temperature. Especially given the cost associated with burning out and having to replace a pH probe. I'll admit sampling temperature was one of the first questions I had too when I started.

 

[dmtaylor]

given the cost associated with burning out and having to replace a pH probe.

The cost is about $13 as far as I'm concerned. My $13 meter has worked just fine at mash temperatures for at least the past 3 years. Hasn't needed replacement yet.

https://www.amazon.com/Poit-Digital...+home+brewing&qid=1565358082&s=gateway&sr=8-3

 

[brewbama]

The cost is about $13 as far as I'm concerned. My $13 meter has worked just fine at mash temperatures for at least the past 3 years. Hasn't needed replacement yet.

https://www.amazon.com/Poit-Digital...+home+brewing&qid=1565358082&s=gateway&sr=8-3

pH meters hate me. For some reason I blow a probe ~ every 10 months regardless of how carefully l store it.

 

[Robert65]

pH meters hate me. For some reason I blow a probe ~ every 10 months regardless of how carefully l store it.

Have you ever tried the Hanna pHep5? I may sound like a broken record recommending it, but I'm high on it for good reason. I get a couple of years on an electrode, the junction is renewable which helps a lot, reliable and durable. Not as cheap as what Dave uses, but I think cheaper than the usual Milwaukee units and ATC for auto calibration to boot.

https://hannainst.com/hi98128-phep-ph-tester.html


(One more thing I'll add, Hanna is one of those companies I give high marks for customer service.)

 

[Dland]

This thread is informative and interesting.

One thing I'd point out though, if ones reference of success is hitting some value that agrees with some software, ones beer might not be as satisfying as brews brewed to ones own taste.

I get it, we are in early 21st century, but seems to me some are more fixated on the screens in front of their face than actual outcome of the beer they brew.

Anyway, have a good weekend and make some beer if you can.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

..........post for deletion.............

This thread is informative and interesting.

One thing I'd point out though, if ones reference of success is hitting some value that agrees with some software, ones beer might not be as satisfying as brews brewed to ones own taste.

I get it, we are in early 21st century, but seems to me some are more fixated on the screens in front of their face than actual outcome of the beer they brew.

Anyway, have a good weekend and make some beer if you can.

The object of this exercise is not to brew an enjoyable beer, or to hit one software's predictions (as opposed to the predictions of others). The object is to give the software developers a tool by which to calibrate their software within a region that is seldom explored. That is why it was posted to the Brew Science forum. At this juncture no one knows if any currently available software will get this one right.

 

[Robert65]

Beer brewed to my taste is beer brewed well. pH control is essential to that outcome. I only use software when I can configure it to do for me something I'd be doing anyway. And yes, I will have a nice weekend brewing some beer. Thanks.

 

[enkamania]

5.60-5.65 room temperature for me. Improvement in every aspect of process and wort and beer quality, night and day, over ~5.4 room temperature.

I have a recipe I brewed before at 5.4. I removed the lactic acid and now the predicted is 5.65. I'm brewing this tomorrow, should be fun.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

This thread is informative and interesting.

One thing I'd point out though, if ones reference of success is hitting some value that agrees with some software, ones beer might not be as satisfying as brews brewed to ones own taste.

I think ones reference of success is understanding the importance of those values.

 

[Dland]

I think ones reference of success is understanding the importance of those values.

I agree, which is why I bother to experiment some and test pH and other parameters. As noted in post #27, I know first hand what a low pH mash will make(specifically 4.8-4.9) and shared that data point. I don't use software to figure it out though, only trail and error and some note books.

 

[Robert65]

I don't use software to figure it out though, only trail and error and some note books.

I've been at this so long, for most of my brewing life there was no software, just trial and error and notebooks. The longer I keep at this, the more I find trial and error and notebooks far more reliable than software.

 

[Dland]

^^^ I'm thinking our brewing community will have lost something once all us analog types have died out, but I have confidence someone will figure it out how to brew old style again even if all digital knowable is lost and we are all have long passed on.

The urge for good brew is strong, and will prevail.

 

[mabrungard]

If you're brewing the same beers time after time, you should be able to dial in a good procedure. The real problem comes when you brew different recipes almost every brew and you want them to come out reasonably well without having to rebrew. That is where a reliable water chemistry program is going to be valued.

 

[dpeters]

Interesting reading here: https://byo.com/mr-wizard/setting-record-straight-mash-ph/

Looks like I've been using water chem calculators wrong and (probably) hitting a mash pH 0.2-0.3 too low. Huh.

Crazy, I always check at room temp and shot for the recommended range in BrunWater. I wonder if mabrungard would care to chime in on this?

 

[Robert65]

IME Mr. Wizard, maybe BYO in general, should be taken with the same sack of salt as Brülosophy.

 

[mabrungard]

Crazy, I always check at room temp and shot for the recommended range in BrunWater. I wonder if mabrungard would care to chime in on this?

Yes, a write up of this issue was posted on the Bru'n Water Facebook page quite a while ago. You may have to scroll down the page a bit to find it.

 

[dmtaylor]

Yes, a write up of this issue was posted on the Bru'n Water Facebook page quite a while ago. You may have to scroll down the page a bit to find it.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1586447511410926&id=464551136933908&__tn__=K-R

 

[Robert65]

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1586447511410926&id=464551136933908&__tn__=K-R

Thank you for the link, for those of us not on FB.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thank you for the link, for those of us not on FB.

The provided Facebook link makes the typical mistake of presuming that "wort pH" is one and the same as "mash pH". And since wort pH measurement is defined by EBC 8.17 as being taken at 20 degrees C., it thereby falsely presumes that mash pH is also to be measured at 20 degrees C. I have not found any reference to an EBC or ASBC standard for the taking of a "mash pH" reading.

 

[kingmatt]

Crazy. This might explain why I NEVER hit my projected pH from the online calculators when taking a reading at room temp. I have always been way higher and have had to then adjust my mash with acid (which is actually then dropping my pH too low).

My last few batches I have been taking my readings at mash temps (because I have been lazy) and have been surprised that they have been pretty close to my projected numbers from the calculator.

I never understood how people claimed they hit their numbers every time from the online calculators (to the point that they didn't even bother taking readings) and I was always so far off...live and learn.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Crazy. This might explain why I NEVER hit my projected pH from the online calculators when taking a reading at room temp. I have always been way higher and have had to then adjust my mash with acid (which is actually then dropping my pH too low).

My last few batches I have been taking my readings at mash temps (because I have been lazy) and have been surprised that they have been pretty close to my projected numbers from the calculator.

I never understood how people claimed they hit their numbers every time from the online calculators (to the point that they didn't even bother taking readings) and I was always so far off...live and learn.

Me too. My ph readings always came out higher than Bru'n Water and EZ Water. I gave up trying to use the software after a couple batches and just dialed it in with trial and error and determined how much acid I needed after a few batches, although I do still measure every batch for data points. Haven't touched the softwares in a long time...

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I never understood how people claimed they hit their numbers every time from the online calculators (to the point that they didn't even bother taking readings) and I was always so far off...live and learn.

I'd agree with those people only if they are exactly duplicating each batch using the same water, grains and quantities. There's no getting around having to take and record mash pH measurements though. If your lucky enough to hit your target mash pH the first time then that's awesome. If further tuning is needed to get the mash pH to where you want it to be then take and record those mash pH measurements too.

Even after finalizing your recipe and water profile it doesn't hurt to confirm the mash pH every few batches as a sanity check. ezRecipe Design includes several recipes that were a direct result of following this process.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Once my kettle pH adjustment software (which is intended to essentially replace mash pH prediction software for most recipes) transitions beyond the Alpha stage I will likely open up a new thread. There are four Alpha level testers on board so far, and one independent test result is now on the books. That isn't enough to justify a new thread at this juncture.

Posted this here, to my own thread, so as to cease walking on a thread that is not related to this subject matter.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Once my kettle pH adjustment software (which is intended to essentially replace mash pH prediction software for most recipes) transitions beyond the Alpha stage I will likely open up a new thread. There are four Alpha level testers on board so far, and one independent test result is now on the books. That isn't enough to justify a new thread at this juncture.

Posted this here, to my own thread, so as to cease walking on a thread that is not related to this subject matter.

@Silver_Is_Money sounds like an interesting project. I'd be included as an alpha tester too just let me know what's needed and I'm in.