Will it mash at pH ~5.00?

[dmtaylor]

Do you think that if I target pH 5.5 and add pickling lime (or a combination of baking soda and pickling lime) to the mash water right up front it will still have these negative flavor qualities?

No, why would it?

 

[Vale71]

Of course it will mash. Mashing works at PH values that are well outside the recommended range. Take for example the measured distilled water PH of a Pilsner type malt. The average value lies in the vicinity of PH 6.0 which is well above the recommended range. What this means in practical terms is that a lab performed a Congress mash with distilled water, measured the PH value of the mash and then proceeded until full conversion and mashout without further adjustments. The lab then performed a series of tests on the resulting wort. So, even if the PH value of the mash was well above what is recommended this did not prevent the mash to be carried to completion.
A very low PH of 5.00 will not prevent full conversion, it will just shift the amylase activity towards beta-amylase while alpha activity will be subdued. As a result conversion will take considerably longer and attenuation will be rather low.
The resulting beer will not necessarily be 'tart' or acidic as the final beer PH will still be set by the yeast during fermentation and the starting PH only has a limited effect on the finished beer PH.
I seem to understand that you want to perform this mash in this way as an experiment, otherwise I would of course recommend delaying the salts additions until mashout to raise the mash PH as much as possible.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Of course it will mash. Mashing works at PH values that are well outside the recommended range. Take for example the measured distilled water PH of a Pilsner type malt. The average value lies in the vicinity of PH 6.0 which is well above the recommended range. What this means in practical terms is that a lab performed a Congress mash with distilled water, measured the PH value of the mash and then proceeded until full conversion and mashout without further adjustments. The lab then performed a series of tests on the resulting wort. So, even if the PH value of the mash was well above what is recommended this did not prevent the mash to be carried to completion.
A very low PH of 5.00 will not prevent full conversion, it will just shift the amylase activity towards beta-amylase while alpha activity will be subdued. As a result conversion will take considerably longer and attenuation will be rather low.
The resulting beer will not necessarily be 'tart' or acidic as the final beer PH will still be set by the yeast during fermentation and the starting PH only has a limited effect on the finished beer PH.
I seem to understand that you want to perform this mash in this way as an experiment, otherwise I would of course recommend delaying the salts additions until mashout to raise the mash PH as much as possible.

When I asked the question, I was not looking at it from the perspective of conversion, but rather from the perspective of where the mash pH would level out. As in, will it mash at pH 5.3, 5.2, 5.10, 5.00, 4.90, etc...

 

[dmtaylor]

Will the following recipe mash at a pH of ~5.00 as carefully and properly measured at both the 30 and 60 minute marks of the mash, with pH meters carefully calibrated, and with the pH samples properly cooled to the requisite 75 degrees F.?

Okay, I think you're asking two different things here. How can a mash that is controlled and verified at exactly 5.00 for the whole mash level out someplace other than 5.00?

 

[Vale71]

It seems like everybody who responded misunderstood your question then...

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

It's a rhetorical question at best. Not the same as posting a recipe along with actual brewday results. Which is challenging enough trying to get someone to replicate and then post their results.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Okay, I think you're asking two different things here. How can a mash that is controlled and verified at exactly 5.00 for the whole mash level out someplace other than 5.00?

It will not be controlled so as to intentionally hit 5.00 mash pH. The original intent was to see if (when left alone to mash "as is") it would mash in the general vicinity of pH 5.00. But now when I get around to mashing it, I will presume 5.00 and then use that presumption to target a "projected" 5.50, and make upward pH adjustments accordingly via the addition of baking soda and pickling lime. If it then hits 5.50 pH during the mash, the presumption will be that if the baking soda and pickling line were not added, it would have hit pH 5.00, or alternatively if it hits some other measured pH, the presumption will be that it would have hit some other mash pH level than 5.00 if it had been left unadulterated, with no pH modifiers.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Wait, is 5.4-5.6 really the generally preferred mash range? I've always seen 5.2-5.4 or 5.5.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Wait, is 5.4-5.6 really the generally preferred mash range? I've always seen 5.2-5.4 or 5.5.

I've generally targeted a nominal pH 5.4, but I'm going to mash my next couple batches at a target of 5.5 to 5.6 (I'll set MME to 5.55) to see if this change increases mouthfeel.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I am not quite sure I get what this thread is about...

I posted a bit ago about a Porter that I brewed where I measured the mash pH at 5.0 (well..4.99). The original goal of my brew was 1) to improve on a previous Porter I brewed and 2) an experiment where I would add sugar to half the batch to compare the difference between a 5% Porter and a 6% Porter (boosted with table/cane sugar). That was the plan...

Two mash issues got in the way of the experiment. As I brought the wort up to boil, I realized that the thermometer I used for mash temps was off 10F. Instead of mashing at 152F, I mashed around 162F. The other issue was that my mash pH registered 4.99. My inexpensive pH meter has been reliable enough that I have some confidence that the pH was actually close to that value.

Efficiency was spot on (OG of 1.052) giving me some confidence that the beer was fine. The fermentation appeared fine, but finished at 1.030 for a beer that was just under 3% ABV. Despite the crazy high FG, the beer was fairly thin and dry (the roasted malts stood out too much). I don't know how much to attribute to the pH or the mash temp.

The half of the batch that had sugar added to the fermenter was closer to being a good beer. In a blind taste I could pick the two out, and the one with the added sugar was more in balance with more body. They got closer after a month or two in the keg. A few times I gave glasses of these beers to people who did not know the background and they enjoyed them. For me, it was hard to get over the bias of knowing the issues of the brew day enough to really enjoy a pint of either.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

If there were no difference in mashing at a very low pH and a normal pH, Guinness would have not implemented their practice of steeping the very acidic roast barley separately from the pale mash and adding that roast liquor AFTER the mash. Excessive proteolysis will destroy the character of a beer.

What is the impact downstream to the pH of the beer from doing this? I don't understand the impact of the final pH of the beer and my understanding is that pH may normalize some during the fermentation. I know Palmer recommends a higher pH for dark beers. Will adding the steepings from dark grains after the mash lower the pH of my finished beer too much?

 

[dmtaylor]

It will not be controlled so as to intentionally hit 5.00 mash pH. The original intent was to see if (when left alone to mash "as is") it would mash in the general vicinity of pH 5.00. But now when I get around to mashing it, I will presume 5.00 and then use that presumption to target a "projected" 5.50, and make upward pH adjustments accordingly via the addition of baking soda and pickling lime. If it then hits 5.50 pH during the mash, the presumption will be that if the baking soda and pickling line were not added, it would have hit pH 5.00, or alternatively if it hits some other measured pH, the presumption will be that it would have hit some other mash pH level than 5.00 if it had been left unadulterated, with no pH modifiers.

Oh, okay, NOW I understand. The way you presented the original question wasn’t super clear. You weren’t asking us whether the recipe would mash okay, i.e., convert & saccarify okay at 5.00. You were asking what our guess would be as to the pH of the recipe before adding any baking soda or pickling lime. We were all answering the first question but not the second.

My guess: I think it would mash at about 5.1, approximately, without any baking soda or pickling lime. So, if you want to add those to come up to 5.5 then if my estimate is better than yours (who really knows), then you would need to add slightly less of those items than you were guessing. But yeah it’s all a guess. My guess is based on distilled water plus salts in a >20% dark roasted malt grist, and knowing that in Ray Daniels’ old book Designing Great Beers (which I basically have memorized) he says a distilled water mash with just pale malts gives a mash pH of about 5.8, and he also says for 20% dark roasted malts will bring this down by about 0.5 to 5.3, and with the salts in there I figure this would come down further to about 5.1... Plus or minus about 0.1. Then I know sometimes based on my experience pH is actually a little lower so maybe 5.0, but then since you’re doing a very thin full volume no sparge mash, back to 5.1 again would be my best guess, based on all this and including my experience, which might be flawed but it is what it is, to me, in my world anyway.

So, yeah, somewhere between your ~5.00 and 5.2 would be my guess, but personally I’d wager about 5.1, then base any baking soda type additions based on that. But of course, your guess is probably as good or better than mine.

Does this help??

 

[deadwolfbones]

I've generally targeted a nominal pH 5.4, but I'm going to mash my next couple batches at a target of 5.5 to 5.6 (I'll set MME to 5.55) to see if this change increases mouthfeel.

Interesting reading here: https://byo.com/mr-wizard/setting-record-straight-mash-ph/

Looks like I've been using water chem calculators wrong and (probably) hitting a mash pH 0.2-0.3 too low. Huh.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I am not quite sure I get what this thread is about...

This thread is intended as a guide to assist mash pH prediction software developers in honing their ware at the low mash pH end of the spectrum. Perhaps 95% of home brew beers are likely to fall at the exact opposite end of the spectrum vs. my interest and concern here, which means needing to add acid to bring down a mash pH to the targeted mash pH. Therefore I contend that much effort has been placed upon pegging software precision to the majority end of the brewing spectrum, and that little effort has been placed upon honing software based mash pH prediction tools to properly accommodate what really goes on in a mash wherein a base is required to raise the pH of the wort to the pH target.

All of this came about awhile ago when I plugged a recipe steeped in deep roast and caramel/crystal malts into various of the then available mash pH assistant software packages, and I received predictions ranging from a need for a small amount of acid in order to adjust to the target pH, to no need to do anything, to a need for a little baking soda, to a need for 17-18 grams of baking soda adjustment in order to hit the desired mash pH target. At that juncture I concluded that whereas any available software package will reasonably well predict the need to acidify for the most typical of brews, there is simply no predictive consensus at all with regard to software as to what should be done with regard to mash pH adjustment for the case of homebrews with loads of deep roasted and caramel/crystal malts.

Thus I conceived a standardized grist and a standardized set of rules by which to mash it. Once a consensus is arrived at as to this standardized batches mash pH, software can be modified and adjusted accordingly such that the wild mash pH prediction discrepancy seen today is greatly eliminated.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Interesting reading here: https://byo.com/mr-wizard/setting-record-straight-mash-ph/

Looks like I've been using water chem calculators wrong and (probably) hitting a mash pH 0.2-0.3 too low. Huh.

Hmmm

• Bamforth’s range is: 5.3 to 5.8 (mashtemp) / 5.55 to 6.05 (room temp)
• Briggs’ range is: 5.2 to 5.4 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.65 (room temp)
• Kunze’s range is: 5.25 to 5.35 (mash temp) / 5.5 to 5.6 (room temp)
• Lewis’ statement: 5.2 to 5.5 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.75 (room temp)

This seem correct? I have generally been targeting a 5.4 reading at 25C since I thought that was in the "good" range and I would rather err on adding too little acid than too much.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

5.4 pH at 25 degrees C. would likely be about 5.1 pH at 66 degrees C. (with, oddly enough, both being correct). But can it be certified that all of these masters of yore measured their mash pH at mash temperature?

 

[brewbama]

I try to hit 5.4 room temp. Plus or minus a hundredth is ok by me.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I try to hit 5.4 room temp. Plus or minus a hundredth is ok by me.

Did you intend to say "tenth" here?

 

[brewbama]

No. Anywhere around 5.39-5.41

 

[Robert65]

Hmmm

• Bamforth’s range is: 5.3 to 5.8 (mashtemp) / 5.55 to 6.05 (room temp)
• Briggs’ range is: 5.2 to 5.4 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.65 (room temp)
• Kunze’s range is: 5.25 to 5.35 (mash temp) / 5.5 to 5.6 (room temp)
• Lewis’ statement: 5.2 to 5.5 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.75 (room temp)

This seem correct? I have generally been targeting a 5.4 reading at 25C since I thought that was in the "good" range and I would rather err on adding too little acid than too much.

5.60-5.65 room temperature for me. Improvement in every aspect of process and wort and beer quality, night and day, over ~5.4 room temperature.

 

[dmtaylor]

Hmmm

• Bamforth’s range is: 5.3 to 5.8 (mashtemp) / 5.55 to 6.05 (room temp)
• Briggs’ range is: 5.2 to 5.4 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.65 (room temp)
• Kunze’s range is: 5.25 to 5.35 (mash temp) / 5.5 to 5.6 (room temp)
• Lewis’ statement: 5.2 to 5.5 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.75 (room temp)

This seem correct?

<EDIT: DELETE>No. This was Lewis' error. This is double-corrected to the point of wrongness. Instead, if measuring mash pH at mash temperatures, you need to subtract 0.25 (not 0.35 -- another Lewis error), so the ranges then become 5.05-5.55, 4.95-5.15, 5.00-5.10, and 4.95-5.25. At about 150 F-ish.</EDIT: DELETE>

I do in fact measure my mash pH at mash temperature since I'm so careless and naughty like that.

EDIT: Oh crap! Now I'm reading it wrong and double-correcting! Constant second-guessing. OMG. Mindfu*k. I don't know what the hell to mash at anymore. Ugh........................

Crap. I think I'm gonna have to start mashing at 5.4 @150 F, or 5.65 @70 F. Crap. Why am I still second-guessing myself 5, 6, 7, 8 times on this??? Crap. How do I know I'm right *this* time??

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

5.60-5.65 room temperature for me. Improvement in every aspect of process and wort and beer quality, night and day, over ~5.4 room temperature.

It was your posts discussing this on a different forum that inspired me to bump my mash pH target up.

 

[Robert65]

It was your posts discussing this on a different forum that inspired me to bump my mash pH target up.

And now all we need is a better model for acid addition to adjust the wort pH at knockout! But I don't want to derail you here.

 

[enkamania]

5.60-5.65 room temperature for me. Improvement in every aspect of process and wort and beer quality, night and day, over ~5.4 room temperature.

I never knew this. Need to update my Mash Made Easy spreadsheet for this weekends brew.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

And now all we need is a better model for acid addition to adjust the wort pH at knockout! But I don't want to derail you here.

I have a working spreadsheet model for this. It needs to be beta tested independent of my potential bias.

 

[Robert65]

I have a working spreadsheet model for this. It needs to be beta tested independent of my potential bias.

You have my attention. The only guidance I've seen is Kunze suggesting that Kolbach found wort buffering is 32 mEq/(pH *kg) of malt used, and a post here on HBT somewhere saying Kolbach's number is 34.25. I've used those and they can give an approximation (the latter closer than the former,) but it clearly is at the very least not linear. But I'm way over my head there. I'll be a huckleberry.

 

[Broothru]

5.60-5.65 room temperature for me. Improvement in every aspect of process and wort and beer quality, night and day, over ~5.4 room temperature.

Mommy, my head hurts after reading this entire thread!

I thought life would be simple after I bought a pH meter. I'd just calibrate the device with with some simple buffers, dip the probe in a shot glass amount of wort cooled to 77F (the zero correction point temperature of the buffer solution), and I'd get accurate measures of my process at any point in the brew day. pH 5.2~5.6 would bracket the target of 5.4. Measure after 5-10 minutes into the Beta amylase rest (usually :30 mins. into my modified Hockhurst step mash), then correct with lactic acid to hit my numbers. Clean the device and store it wet so the bulb doesn't dry out. Easy road to better beer!

Brain is now officially blown. I've concluded that I must have it all wrong, but now I have no idea how to get it right, or how to get there. Somebody please just distill it to a Cliff's Notes version for the old guy who wants to do it correctly with a minimum of sciencey stuff. What's the "desirable" pH range to target for mashing, and at what temperature should it be measured? FWIW, I take periodic samples throughout the brewing process to measure refractive index for gravity readings and always measure at 'room temperature' (67F-73F year-round) for consistency and will probably continue to also do so for pH readings, since set base reference points result (for me at least) with less opportunity to commit math errors in public.

Help. Grasshopper seeks enlightenment.

Brooo Brother

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You have my attention. The only guidance I've seen is Kunze suggesting that Kolbach found wort buffering is 32 mEq/(pH *kg) of malt used, and a post here on HBT somewhere saying Kolbach's number is 34.25. I've used those and they can give an approximation (the latter closer than the former,) but it clearly is at the very least not linear. But I'm way over my head there. I'll be a huckleberry.

For downstream (post mash) kettle pH adjustment I'm currently testing a buffer value initially set to a fraction above 30, but the computation of requisite acidity is subsequently modified (varied) by uniquely complexing it with wort density and wort volume.

Basically, since kettle wort is at this juncture fully divorced from the grist from which it derived, and no two process efficiencies are the same, I use cool post boil kettle volume and SG (as OG) to back calculate a hypothetical (inferred) initial Kg quantity of grist at a hypothetical fixed conversion efficiency and proceed from there. You could effectively look at it as the buffering value of the wort being variable to (and varied by) wort density.

 

[dmtaylor]

Okay I'm done second guessing again, finally, I think. Found this (again), which contains links to several other good threads too.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...nse-to-mash-ph-questions.638811/#post-8175675

EDIT: Yup. I've still been mashing at a pH too damn low, about 5.4, when really I should be shooting for 5.60-5.65. Now if only I don't forget this conclusion again after I brew a few more batches I should be all set! This goes a long way also to help explain why many (not all, but many) of my beers seem to have just a slight tartness that has been bugging me. There have been times I've mashed as low as 5.30-5.35, and to my knowledge, now, it is clear to me that this is quite low indeed. Too much confusion over whether the typical pH range is meant for room temp vs. mash temp! Back and forth, ugh. Now I think maybe I've finally got it straight!

And big thanks to @Robert65 for so very non-chalantly bringing this up! I think you're absolutely right!:

5.60-5.65 room temperature for me. Improvement in every aspect of process and wort and beer quality, night and day, over ~5.4 room temperature.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

@CascadesBrewer adding sugar to wort increases alcohol and contributes to a thinner drier beer. This is a basic fact of brewing.

Mashing at 162F produces a fuller bodied beer with less alcohol. This is another basic fact of brewing.