Wild Fermented Cider with apples from orchard

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levity03

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Hey everyone -- brand new to making cider, and we're planning on giving it a shot in the next few weeks. Heading up to the Catskills and will be going apple picking at an orchard, bringing back ~15lbs to make ~1 gallon of cider, from what I've read. We would prefer to not add anything, including sugar / yeast.

We plan on using a juicer - assume this will work if we don't have a press?

If we wash the apples, will the yeast wash off as well?

Is there is a great step-by-step guide someone can point us to?

Any suggestions for apple varietals for wild fermented dry cider is greatly appreciated!

If anyone lives in NY and also knows of a great orchard, we'd love to check it out.

Thanks!
 
Welcome to the hobby! Definitely a lot of fun, especially when you get to drink the results of your labor.

Yes, you can use a juicer. When you start doing larger quantities you will probably want something bigger like an actual apple press, but for just one gallon a counter top juicer will work fine.

ALWAYS wash your apples with water before pressing. You never know what else might be on the surface of the apples. I thoroughly wash all of my apples with a pressure washer before pressing. I do many wild fermentations with apples, and there is still plenty of active yeast for wild fermentation after washing. My unconfirmed belief is that there are also active yeast colonies in the core of the apple.

A wild ferment is quite simple. Step-by-step instructions are below the other answers to your questions.

Typically, the best ciders seem to come from apples that are not necessarily the tastiest when you bite into them. The sweetness that dominates most "Handfruit" and "Dessert" varieties end up fermenting out, and makes for a bland cider. Look for varieties with some bitter, sharp, sour, earthy, spicy, other qualities besides sweet. Those flavors are what will remain in your finished cider. It can be tough to find a single variety that fits the need, so many people tend to blend different apple varieties to find the taste they are looking for.

If you live in an apple growing region as I do (pacific Northwest for me), then I simply go the "door knocking" route, rather than going to orchards and paying for apples. It blows me away how many people plant apple trees and then never do anything with them. If I see a house with an apple tree that does not appear to be used, then I knock and ask if I can pick their tree. I always clean up and dispose of the groundfall, and also give them some of either the Juice or the finished cider when done. I haven't paid for an apple or juice in years.

Instructions for wild fermentation Apple Cider:
1) Turn apples into Juice. Do not pasteurize and do not add any Campden/K-Meta/Sulfites.
Note: If you want a Sparkling Cider, then set aside 10% of your juice in the freezer for use at the very end of the process (more on that later).
2) Measure the starting gravity of your Juice (optional, but necessary if you want to have any idea of your alcohol content).
3) Immediately after Juicing, pour Juice into a sterilized container (Primary) and attach airlock. This container should have some extra headspace to allow for krausen/foaming that occurs during the fermentation process.
4) Wait. Observable Airlock activity from a wild fermentation will typically start anywhere from 1-5 days from juicing. If you still have not observed any airlock activity after 5 days, then you may want to Pitch yeast (yes, this means you no longer have a wild fermentation, but is better than wasting good fresh pressed juice).
5) Optional: You can add yeast nutrient 1-2 days after observable airlock activity begins, if desired. (Note: I only use organic yeast nutrient on wild fermnations [Fermaid-O])
6) Continue waiting. Depending on different factors fermentation will take anywhere from 1-3 weeks, or potentially even longer.
7) When airlock activity has ceased, its time to rack to secondary. "Racking" is simply siphoning the liquid into a fresh, sterilized container. This gets the cider off of the dead yeast and apple solids that have settled to the bottom of your primary fermenter and allows for further clarification. This secondary fermenter should be smaller than your primary fermenter to limit the headspace. (Take a gravity reading at this point to verify that fermentation has proceeded as expected).
8) Wait for Cider to clarify. I like to wait until it is clear enough to read through, which typically takes 2-3 weeks in secondary.
9) Time to bottle. Measure the gravity again. It should be 1.000 or below at this point.
10a) If you want a Still (non carbonated) Cider, then simply siphon into sterilized bottles and seal them.
10b) If you want a Sparkling(carbonated) Cider then you will need to add Priming Sugar just before bottling. Rack the cider to another container and mix with your desired source of priming sugars. Since you said you did not want to add sugar, you can use that Juice that was set aside and frozen in step 1 as your source of priming sugars. By adding 10% of your total volume in fresh juice, that should bring your gravity to ~1.005, which I have found to give a very pleasant carbonation level. Siphon into bottles, then let the bottles sit to allow the residual yeasts to eat the priming sugars and carbonate your cider. I like to give at least 3 weeks of bottle conditioning to ensure full carbonation.
 
ALWAYS wash your apples with water before pressing. You never know what else might be on the surface of the apples. I thoroughly wash all of my apples with a pressure washer before pressing. I do many wild fermentations with apples, and there is still plenty of active yeast for wild fermentation after washing. My unconfirmed belief is that there are also active yeast colonies in the core of the apple.
Why exactly are you washing them? From a biological standpoint I don't see why that would be necessary.
It's true wild microbes also live inside fruit.

Instructions for wild fermentation Apple Cider:
Great instructions!

I just want to add that you should generally maintain a low temp, like 50-60°F. This helps preserve the volatile esters.
I tend to skip the racking step, instead I leave the fermenter closed to avoid oxygen. More time on the sediment doesn't hurt.

Cheers
 
Why exactly are you washing them? From a biological standpoint I don't see why that would be necessary.
It's true wild microbes also live inside fruit.

I've been washing my fruit prior to pressing ever since I started. The commercial cideries I have visited as well as the local orchard that presses apples all wash their fruit prior to pressing. I figure they know what they are doing, so I wash mine as well.

And yes, RPH is correct about temps in order to prevent the creation of esters that affect flavor. RPH is also correct about racking into secondary being optional, though I have found that it reduces the amount of time necessary for clarifying.
 
I've been washing my fruit prior to pressing ever since I started. The commercial cideries I have visited as well as the local orchard that presses apples all wash their fruit prior to pressing. I figure they know what they are doing, so I wash mine as well.
Do the commercial cideries also sell or allow consumption of unfermented juice?

Alcohol kills dangerous bacteria and parasites, so it makes sense to wash the fruit to try to remove those if you are drinking it without fermentation.

I wonder if washing changes the flavor. If I pressed my own apples I would try with and without washing to see which way makes a better cider.
 
The cideries I visited only sell fermented cider, they do not pasteurize prior to fermenting, but they do use sulfites. The orchard sells unpasteurized juice.

I always set aside a quart or two when pressing for immediate enjoyment of that delicious sweet fresh unpasteurized nectar. Soo yummy, especially the first pressing of the season after a long hiatus without it.

I find it doubtful that washing the apples would have an effect on the taste, other than a potentially positive effect from removing dirt and debris. I've never pressed without washing so I cant say for sure though.
 
Heading up to the Catskills and will be going apple picking at an orchard, bringing back ~15lbs to make ~1 gallon of cider

We plan on using a juicer - assume this will work if we don't have a press?

Since its your first go at making cider, you'd be better off finding fresh pressed juice and use that. If preservative is added, it will be on the label but its also good to ask. Some hard cider companies that have their own orchard will sell a "cider makers blend" for home brewers, but you'll have to hunt around your area and see what you can find.
I'd also skip the wild ferment and use something like 71b wine yeast or "Cider House Select" yeast.
Or get 2 gallons and let one ferment wild.
Pick your own apples are actually somewhat pricey compared to just buying fresh pressed juice.
I've used a juicer and wasn't happy with the product compared to pressing.
 
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Why exactly are you washing them? From a biological standpoint I don't see why that would be necessary.
It's true wild microbes also live inside fruit.


Great instructions!

I just want to add that you should generally maintain a low temp, like 50-60°F. This helps preserve the volatile esters.
I tend to skip the racking step, instead I leave the fermenter closed to avoid oxygen. More time on the sediment doesn't hurt.

Cheers

Why wash those apples? Bird poop ;) is not a good ingredient.
 
@levity03 Welcome to the forum and hobby, from Long Island. I haven’t made much cider myself, and what I have made was kind of meh so I won’t offer up any advice accept to say enjoy yourself and be patient, the yeast works on its own schedule, and for somethings time mellows flaws.
 
There is absolutely no evidence that unwashed apples cause problems, whether off flavours or human pathogens, even if they have been on the ground. (winegrapes are never washed). It's fine to wash your apples but if you are trying to force all that work on other cidermakers you should get your facts straight. "that seems yucky" is not the same as evidence.
 
It's worth noting that rinsing apples is definitely a best practice recommended by just about every professional, academic, or author.

At least see if they float-rotten apples won't.

(but good pears will always sink)

edit: But pressure washing, or even scrubbing, is definitely overkill here.

I might scrub grocery store apples to get the wax off, but why in the world are you paying grocery store prices for apples to juice?
 
There is absolutely no evidence that unwashed apples cause problems, whether off flavours or human pathogens, even if they have been on the ground. (winegrapes are never washed). It's fine to wash your apples but if you are trying to force all that work on other cidermakers you should get your facts straight. "that seems yucky" is not the same as evidence.

By the same logic, there is no evidence that it is bad to wash bird poop, dirt, earwigs, and other debris from the apples prior to pressing. I don't find the step of spraying my apples to be particularly difficult or time consuming, and it works well for me.
I'm not sure where you are getting the "force all that work on other cidermakers" part from. I was offering my opinion based on my experience and observations. Any individual can do whatever they want.

It's worth noting that rinsing apples is definitely a best practice recommended by just about every professional, academic, or author.

At least see if they float-rotten apples won't.

(but good pears will always sink)

edit: But pressure washing, or even scrubbing, is definitely overkill here.

Correction: I'm not using an actual pressure washer, nor do I scrub the apples. Just a nozzle on my hose that shoots the water out at higher velocity than normal. I agree that an actual pressure washer and/or scrubbing would be overkill. The entire washing process takes me about 10 minutes for an 80lb bin of apples.
 
Welcome to the hobby! Definitely a lot of fun, especially when you get to drink the results of your labor.

Yes, you can use a juicer. When you start doing larger quantities you will probably want something bigger like an actual apple press, but for just one gallon a counter top juicer will work fine.

ALWAYS wash your apples with water before pressing. You never know what else might be on the surface of the apples. I thoroughly wash all of my apples with a pressure washer before pressing. I do many wild fermentations with apples, and there is still plenty of active yeast for wild fermentation after washing. My unconfirmed belief is that there are also active yeast colonies in the core of the apple.

A wild ferment is quite simple. Step-by-step instructions are below the other answers to your questions.

Typically, the best ciders seem to come from apples that are not necessarily the tastiest when you bite into them. The sweetness that dominates most "Handfruit" and "Dessert" varieties end up fermenting out, and makes for a bland cider. Look for varieties with some bitter, sharp, sour, earthy, spicy, other qualities besides sweet. Those flavors are what will remain in your finished cider. It can be tough to find a single variety that fits the need, so many people tend to blend different apple varieties to find the taste they are looking for.

If you live in an apple growing region as I do (pacific Northwest for me), then I simply go the "door knocking" route, rather than going to orchards and paying for apples. It blows me away how many people plant apple trees and then never do anything with them. If I see a house with an apple tree that does not appear to be used, then I knock and ask if I can pick their tree. I always clean up and dispose of the groundfall, and also give them some of either the Juice or the finished cider when done. I haven't paid for an apple or juice in years.

Instructions for wild fermentation Apple Cider:
1) Turn apples into Juice. Do not pasteurize and do not add any Campden/K-Meta/Sulfites.
Note: If you want a Sparkling Cider, then set aside 10% of your juice in the freezer for use at the very end of the process (more on that later).
2) Measure the starting gravity of your Juice (optional, but necessary if you want to have any idea of your alcohol content).
3) Immediately after Juicing, pour Juice into a sterilized container (Primary) and attach airlock. This container should have some extra headspace to allow for krausen/foaming that occurs during the fermentation process.
4) Wait. Observable Airlock activity from a wild fermentation will typically start anywhere from 1-5 days from juicing. If you still have not observed any airlock activity after 5 days, then you may want to Pitch yeast (yes, this means you no longer have a wild fermentation, but is better than wasting good fresh pressed juice).
5) Optional: You can add yeast nutrient 1-2 days after observable airlock activity begins, if desired. (Note: I only use organic yeast nutrient on wild fermnations [Fermaid-O])
6) Continue waiting. Depending on different factors fermentation will take anywhere from 1-3 weeks, or potentially even longer.
7) When airlock activity has ceased, its time to rack to secondary. "Racking" is simply siphoning the liquid into a fresh, sterilized container. This gets the cider off of the dead yeast and apple solids that have settled to the bottom of your primary fermenter and allows for further clarification. This secondary fermenter should be smaller than your primary fermenter to limit the headspace. (Take a gravity reading at this point to verify that fermentation has proceeded as expected).
8) Wait for Cider to clarify. I like to wait until it is clear enough to read through, which typically takes 2-3 weeks in secondary.
9) Time to bottle. Measure the gravity again. It should be 1.000 or below at this point.
10a) If you want a Still (non carbonated) Cider, then simply siphon into sterilized bottles and seal them.
10b) If you want a Sparkling(carbonated) Cider then you will need to add Priming Sugar just before bottling. Rack the cider to another container and mix with your desired source of priming sugars. Since you said you did not want to add sugar, you can use that Juice that was set aside and frozen in step 1 as your source of priming sugars. By adding 10% of your total volume in fresh juice, that should bring your gravity to ~1.005, which I have found to give a very pleasant carbonation level. Siphon into bottles, then let the bottles sit to allow the residual yeasts to eat the priming sugars and carbonate your cider. I like to give at least 3 weeks of bottle conditioning to ensure full carbonation.

Do we need remove or cut out damage/worm tracks?
 
Cool video. Wow, they literally shovel brown oxidized apples from the ground straight into the grinder with no washing at all. The video does not make it clear, but I am guessing that they pasteurize that prior to fermenting, or they use a ton of sulfites. Also, at the very end of the video they show that they also make apple vinegar, which makes sense considering how oxidized those apples look.
 
Do we need remove or cut out damage/worm tracks?

I do. Apples with worm tracks usually also have a good amount of worm poop in the core, which I like to remove (I'm sure others will have different opinions). I cut out the parts that I don't want and throw the rest in with the pressing batch so as not to be wasteful.
There probably isn't really anything too harmful about the worms (actually grubs/larvae), or their poop. Grubs can be eaten without problem (ever watch "Man vs wild"?), and their poop is just digested apple. Unappealing to me, so I remove it though.
 
Cool video. Wow, they literally shovel brown oxidized apples from the ground straight into the grinder with no washing at all. The video does not make it clear, but I am guessing that they pasteurize that prior to fermenting, or they use a ton of sulfites. Also, at the very end of the video they show that they also make apple vinegar, which makes sense considering how oxidized those apples look.

My bet is that they let the wild yeast do it. Press apples late fall, cider is ready when the trees are blossoming in May.
 
By the same logic, there is no evidence that it is bad to wash bird poop, dirt, earwigs, and other debris from the apples prior to pressing. I don't find the step of spraying my apples to be particularly difficult or time consuming, and it works well for me.
I'm not sure where you are getting the "force all that work on other cidermakers" part from. I was offering my opinion based on my experience and observations. Any individual can do whatever they want.

Using ALWAYS in all caps is fairly forceful language. As I said, winegrapes are never washed and are much more dirty than apples because stuff gets caught in the bunches, I've done a lot of grape harvesting and you wouldn't believe how dirty the bunches can get sometimes, also covered in spiders and bugs. So there is plenty of evidence that you don't need to wash off bird poop, etc. What people don't realise is the natural environment is not harmful, it can actually be beneficial to have contact with nature in the form of the stuff that collects on the skin of fruit.
 
It's quite difficult to discern tone and intention in written text. No one is twisting anyone's arm or forcing anyone to do anything. Everyone has their own list of "dos and don'ts". I have had excellent results with my process and will continue washing my apples prior to pressing. You may have a different process and also have excellent results and will continue doing things in your way. Nothing wrong with that.

As others have said on these forums: "Ask 10 brewers a question, and you will get 12 different answers".
 
Thank you everyone for the tips & insight, it's super helpful.

I live in Brooklyn so keeping a temperature control at 50-60 degrees may not be feasible, as we'd have to live with it as well...! What would the consequences be of keeping it at a comfortable room temp (in a dark room)?
 
What would the consequences be of keeping it at a comfortable room temp (in a dark room)?
It may still be good. Wild fermentations are unpredicable.

Lower temps preserve more apple flavor and reduce bacterial expression.
 
Do we need remove or cut out damage/worm tracks?

I mean, if you really want to. Let's say you get 65% yield of juice per weight. Lose ~10% by volume from racking. Water is ~8lbs/gallon. So 5 gallons is 40 lbs. You're looking at almost 70 lbs of apples to fill a carboy.

That's a TON of work to quarter and trim the apples, and I guarantee nobody doing any sort of professional volume is bothering. That ~70lbs is before you start discarding ugly bits, too.

Maybe, you know, don't age on the gross lees. Only the fine lees.

edit: I've been able to attend some back of house cidery tours for vendors in the PNW, and they definitely don't cut out worm tracks. Dump boxes/shovels onto a conveyor belt which pulls the apples through a pool of water/rinse area. And then into a grinder. A pump moves the pomace into a press. Then it gets pumped into the relevant fermenter. Something obviously rotten will get pulled off the conveyor belt and chucked. but that's it. Even if only 1/4 of the apple loots rotted, who cares? You're probably pressing several tons of apples a day. Just toss an apple that stands out as gross.
 
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Sequoiacider (or really anyone who can help).- first off, thank you SO much for the detailed rundown of the process. I do have a question about racking from primary to secondary. We have (2) one-gallon carboys -- I know, small; leftover from previous project -- and if the idea is to move the liquid to a smaller vessel, what do you suggest? Is half-gallon the next size down...? Guessing that's going to be too small. Any suggestions welcome!
 
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I use sanitized glass marbles to reduce headspace in my 1 gal carboys after racking, if needed.

However, you should consider getting a larger vessel like a 2 gallon bucket for primary fermentation and then rack into the 1 gal carboy. That way you can start with more than a gallon and then end up with a full gallon in secondary.

My wild fermentations I like to leave in primary.

Cheers
 
It depends on how much actual liquid you have in your primary fermenters, minus the sediment that you will be leaving behind. Assuming there is currently some headspace and sediment, then using a 1 Gallon and a 1/2 Gallon for secondary containers might work. Or you could use glass marbles to fill the remaining headspace to use 2 1 gallon containers. You can pick them up cheaply from aquarium supply stores, and they are easy to sanitize.
 
Thanks again for the responses. Last question before we get started here. Should we be coring the apples or throwing the whole apple, seeds and all, into the juicer? Not concerned about the cyanide, more about the adverse taste the seeds could bring out in the finished product.
 
Throw them in whole. There is absolutely no reason to core the apples. They will not impart any adverse flavor on your juice.

I know you said you werent worried about it, but the idea regarding the apples seeds and cyanide typically contains a lot of misinformation. While apple seeds do contain amygdalin, which can be broken down by your body into cyanide, you would need to directly eat nearly two cups of ground apple seeds in one sitting to cause any problems from this. Amygdalin is also a solid, so most of in remains in the apple mash and does not end up in your juice.
 
Thanks Sequoiacider - will toss 'em in whole!

RE: amygdalin -- yup, exactly what I read too so not concerned.

Thx!
 
I wash and cut out bad spots. Craft cider to me is to make it the BEST you can. Unsprayed apples also (in SE Michigan) come with fungus, black sooty blotch and flyspec. Wash a couple dozen in a white sink or bucket and checkout that mud water you are left with. Google Biokleen soap. It is a big help. A 10 minute soak helps a ton.
 
Craft cider to me is to make it the BEST you can.
Is washing the apples better? Objectively?
You make a lot of wild fermented cider and have tried it both ways?

Sounds like it's just based on icky feelings.
 
Is washing the apples better? Objectively?
You make a lot of wild fermented cider and have tried it both ways?

Sounds like it's just based on icky feelings.

Here is when you get into the discussion of objectivity vs an appreciation for process/work.

I don't appreciably like apple butter more than blackberry jam, but it's a whole lot more work. So when somebody gives me some homemade fruit butter-I appreciate, and am thankful for their effort. And acknowledge their extra time.

But from a perspective of complete honesty and objectivity-it doesn't make my breakfast truly any better, sure.

But maybe people enjoy the process, of find the process worthwhile for other reasons. A local orchard rinses their apples when they're having events and pressing on-site, just to appease people's desire for sanitation and ignorant disgust of an agricultural process. But the frozen juice they also sell, pressed on their own time? Nah, that fruit is just tossed in. You're right, it doesn't actually matter to the end product. But in this context, it's a worthwhile step.

Rinsing was a good way to get small children involved when I was pressing perry pears a couple weeks ago, too.
 
A lot of commercial cider producers wash their fruit, a simple step of dunking the apples in water then lifting them out. I think all apples for eating get washed in the packing shed. That doesn't mean it's necessary, and if you want to simplify and speed your process you can easily leave out the washing without any bad effects. You can argue that eating uncleaned apples straight from the tree is good for your gut microbes, but there's no proof for that.
https://www.machines-briand.com/nos...avage-pommes-cidre/274-laveur-a-tambours.html


This is a commercial machine for washing cider apples.

https://www.mordusdelapomme.fr/spip.php?article75
This is a French website describing the cider making process (use google translate)
Apple Wash
"This operation is only necessary if the collected apples are not clean. Grinding fruit soiled with soil, leaves or twigs causes the introduction of many impurities and disease ferments into the juice coming out of the press. This practice would cause the alteration of the ciders, because the fermentation does not purify everything, as it is believed too often."
 
I think a lot of the wild yeast is from the barn, bins & press. Not necessarily the apple skin.
 
Is washing the apples better? Objectively?
You make a lot of wild fermented cider and have tried it both ways?

Sounds like it's just based on icky feelings.

Indeed..."icky feelings". Seems like common sense to me. You just go with your dirt, fungus, worms, worm poo and rot - I'm sure it will be fine.
 
I suggest against using rotten apples. Rot potentiality could contribute undesirable flavors or toxins.
Yeast is fungus; it's 100% necessary in the cider making process.
Yes it's a bad decision to go eat handfuls of dirt, but that's not what I'm suggesting. The small amount of worms and dirt aren't problematic and would mostly be left in the press. Alcohol kills all the pathogenic microbes and parasites. Washing wouldn't remove the worms anyway.

I use science to guide my decisions. Washing the apples potentially removes a lot of organisms that would otherwise enhance a wild fermentation, and does not provide any substantial benefit. However, you're the boss in your cidery, so do whatever makes you feel comfortable.

Cheers
 
All the apples we used were picked off the tree, not from the ground, and from an organic orchard. In our case, they were washed but not overwashed - a simple use of the sink sprayer. I understand that most yeast will still be present anyway.

At the moment, we have had our juice in a 3.5 gallon bucket since Friday night with no activity from the airlock. The bucket is sitting in a dark room with the window open, leaving it around 60-65 degrees or so, depending on the day -- unfortunately, we don't have much control over our temps at the moment.

From what I've read, and there are varying opinions, I could wait up to 2 weeks to see if any fermentation is taking place before pitching yeast, but I'm thinking of waiting until Friday to access. Thoughts?

If I open my lid on the bucket, would I be able to see anything that would indicate that things are moving in the right direction, or is the airlock really the only way to get an idea? I realize an airlock is the best way to see if fermentation has begun, but I'm wondering if there are any clues from looking at the juice itself.

Thx!
 
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