why is it that...

[GregR]

universities have science classes for non science majors but don't have English and history classes for non English or history majors? if they can take a "no calculus" physics course why don't I get to take a "no grammar" English course? is it fair that I have to perform at a higher level than them in my chosen major but have to perform at their level in their chosen major?

seriously, no calc physics? that's just a joke.

 

[blizzard]

And... That's why I went to the CO school of mines. No essay to get in and everyone is an engineer/scientist. That has positives and negatives in the long run, but is a good fit for some.

 

[ndsgr]

Then when you take the GRE, they rape you on the "word stuff" and give you easy math (wtf, no integrals?).

Not so bad though, a friend of mine teaches math at my old school. He says that some departments feel their students are too stupid (his words) to take college algebra like other non-tech majors. They designed a specific math class just for them. I saw the material and a whole section of the book was talking about shapes (properties, etc) and had little math to do with it. "Ok class, this is a trapezoid. It's kinda like a square, but different." Kind of sad IMO.

 

[shecky]

universities have science classes for non science majors but don't have English and history classes for non English or history majors? if they can take a "no calculus" physics course why don't I get to take a "no grammar" English course? is it fair that I have to perform at a higher level than them in my chosen major but have to perform at their level in their chosen major?

seriously, no calc physics? that's just a joke.

As an English major, can I ask what exactly an English or history course for non-English or non-history majors would entail? Math and science include variables that can be "dumbed down" for some of us. English is English. Grammar is grammar. History is history. There are no variables involved.

I assume you're not being made to take medieval literature or exploring the Civil War in great detail.

And just by the way, it's really not a terrible thing to learn how to use your language the way it is intended to be used. In fact, it can only help.

 

[Mike M]

Yeah what Shecky said.

The ability to communicate in proper English will only help your career. Besides English and History can provide a nice diversion. I have a science degree and generally enjoyed those classes. Reset your attitude and expectations and you may find you do too.

 

[GregR]

And just by the way, it's really not a terrible thing to learn how to use your language the way it is intended to be used. In fact, it can only help.

and it isn't a terrible thing to learn calculus to understand better how the world around you works. In fact, it can only help.

to me, it just seems that we're held to different standards. I took the same English literature class that English majors have to take, the same critical thinking courses... my argument is that I am held to the same standard as those intending to major in the subject while non science majors get away with taking the low calorie version of science and walk away with not nearly the same understanding. it just seems like a bias to non science majors. they get to walk easy street in science town but I have to perform at their level in their major and outperform them in my major as well?

 

[GregR]

(wtf, no integrals?).
I saw the material and a whole section of the book was talking about shapes (properties, etc) and had little math to do with it. "Ok class, this is a trapezoid. It's kinda like a square, but different." Kind of sad IMO.

that's my point. why is ok to have a lesser understanding of math and science? I'm not saying non science majors should have to take upper level science/engineering classes, but at the most basic of levels, shouldn't they walk away with the same understanding? it would be a sad sight indeed if my grasp of the English language were at a barely functioning level, but isn't it just as sad when people can't recognize basic shapes or understand the forces that drive nature around them?

 

[shecky]

and it isn't a terrible thing to learn calculus to understand better how the world around you works. In fact, it can only help.

to me, it just seems that we're held to different standards. I took the same English literature class that English majors have to take, the same critical thinking courses... my argument is that I am held to the same standard as those intending to major in the subject while non science majors get away with taking the low calorie version of science and walk away with not nearly the same understanding. it just seems like a bias to non science majors. they get to walk easy street in science town but I have to perform at their level in their major and outperform them in my major as well?

I've had my share of math and science. I was a chemistry major for two years before I realized I wanted to write for a living.

It is sad that non-science types can't do the basics, though I have to say I've not run into many, if any, of them. I didn't retain any of the calc or trig I took and, honestly, I haven't needed to apply them often. However, you use the language every day of your life.

I can't disagree too much beyond that. Let's be honest, performing at the same level as an English major is not difficult.

 

[bob1852]

Let's be honest, performing at the same level as an English major is not difficult.

sayz 'da Inglish majer

 

[GregR]

I've had my share of math and science. I was a chemistry major for two years before I realized I wanted to write for a living.

It is sad that non-science types can't do the basics, though I have to say I've not run into many, if any, of them. I didn't retain any of the calc or trig I took and, honestly, I haven't needed to apply them often. However, you use the language every day of your life.

I can't disagree too much beyond that. Let's be honest, performing at the same level as an English major is not difficult.

lol. and really, I'm just trolling. I just took my physics final today and it was one of the hardest classes I've ever taken and mostly just feel good that I passed it (and with a little bit of luck might have squeaked past it with an A).

in all honesty I love the English language and think most native English speakers don't speak the language well enough. My thought on the subject is that if I'm only going to speak/read/write one language, I'd better be able to do it damn well. though I do know enough Spanish to have basic conversations and get clean towels brought to my room.

 

[BBKing]

Why is it that one has to take a test (in most cases) to get a drivers license, to practice law, or sell insurance....

Yet one can get a "Fishing License" by just paying the fee? No test of rudimentary knowledge of a fishing pole or how to properly catch a fish....Lets call it the "Fishing Tax" and be honest about it shall we?

We ARE comparing "Why is its" right?

 

[Baja_Brewer]

I can't disagree too much beyond that. Let's be honest, performing at the same level as an English major is not difficult.

You said it, but I won't disagree I'm actually glad that one of 'you guys' will admit to it, all I usually hear is BS arguments in response...

Seriously though, some of these science guys need to just plain old start over when it comes to English. I've written papers with engineering classmates that were God awful. I would read their sections, send them back to them to edit them (punctuation, basic grammar, verb tenses, helloooooo???) and the papers would come back exactly the same. I would spend as much time re-writing their sections as if I wrote them on my own.

Science classes for non-science majors are lame. "Discovering the Universe" "Why Pluto Isn't a Planet"... I swear, they should start making courses like "Be Able to Answer All of a 4 Year Old's Questions like Why is the Sky Blue"

 

[Pappers_]

and it isn't a terrible thing to learn calculus to understand better how the world around you works. In fact, it can only help.

to me, it just seems that we're held to different standards. I took the same English literature class that English majors have to take, the same critical thinking courses...

That's not true. You do not have to take the same upper level liberal arts courses (history, english, literature) that those majors take. You may have to take the same general requirements courses, but that's because they're general requirements.

Perhaps you need to take a logic course or two

 

[Baja_Brewer]

That's not true. You do not have to take the same upper level liberal arts courses (history, english, literature) that those majors take. You may have to take the same general requirements courses, but that's because they're general requirements.

Perhaps you need to take a logic course or two

Taking Cal 1 or Cal 2 so that you can understand Physics is not asking non-science students to take Differential Equations... there are also upper level science/math courses that the liberal arts students are not required to take. Yes, they will take upper level communications/writing/critical thinking/whatever courses that we (science based majors) may not, but they're not even taking our low level courses.

 

[RDWHAHB]

And that my friend is why math science folks are employable.

 

[goose1873]

As an English major, can I ask what exactly an English or history course for non-English or non-history majors would entail? Math and science include variables that can be "dumbed down" for some of us. English is English. Grammar is grammar. History is history. There are no variables involved.

I assume you're not being made to take medieval literature or exploring the Civil War in great detail.

And just by the way, it's really not a terrible thing to learn how to use your language the way it is intended to be used. In fact, it can only help.

exactly. I was a microbiology/biochemistry major and it is a discipline that builds on itself. It is impossible to take advanced physics without understanding calculus (i.e. a method of finding the area of a curved random shape) and Trig.

I took an advanced class on Japanese culture and needed to know nothing when i walked in the door...

 

[shecky]

And that my friend is why math science folks are employable.

Yikes. I had no idea I was unemployable. That job I've had for 20 years must be a figment of my imagination.

 

[RDWHAHB]

Luckily the left brain folks have a good imagination.

 

[shecky]

Luckily the left brain folks have a good imagination.

Well played, sir, well played.

 

[menschmaschine]

Those non-calc science courses are a joke... a joke on the suckers who take them!

Calc makes science and math so much easier. I've seen many non-science majors fail non-calc statistics simply because it is so much more drawn out and unnecessarily complex than statistics using calc. They would have done better to take calculus, then the calc-required statistics... instead of having to take the non-calc statistics twice just to get a D in it.

 

[motobrewer]

our civil engineers didn't have to take physics lab (UW Milwaukee). i don't think they had to take diff. eq. either.

don't drive on Milwaukee bridges.

 

[GregR]

That's not true. You do not have to take the same upper level liberal arts courses (history, english, literature) that those majors take. You may have to take the same general requirements courses, but that's because they're general requirements.

Perhaps you need to take a logic course or two

I'm not talking about about vector calculus and Diff EQ and statics and thermodnamics.

what I am saying is that an introductory physics class for scientists and engineers is far different than an introductory physics class for non scientists. why the double standard, Mr. logic? key word there being introductory.

 

[Pappers_]

Taking Cal 1 or Cal 2 so that you can understand Physics is not asking non-science students to take Differential Equations... there are also upper level science/math courses that the liberal arts students are not required to take. Yes, they will take upper level communications/writing/critical thinking/whatever courses that we (science based majors) may not, but they're not even taking our low level courses.

You miss my point. Perhaps you need to pay attention in those liberal arts courses, work on reading comprehension

What you (and everyone) are required to take are general requirements - what you need to take to be an educated person. If you don't want a general liberal arts education, to be what western society has decided is a well-educated person, then go to a tech school.

 

[Pappers_]

I'm not talking about about vector calculus and Diff EQ and statics and thermodnamics.

what I am saying is that an introductory physics class for scientists and engineers is far different than an introductory physics class for non scientists. why the double standard, Mr. logic? key word there being introductory.

Because they're not general liberal arts requirements. They are not foundational to being an educated person, as western society has defined it over the past few hundred years.

I had no idea that students were so whiney (or maybe I'd just forgotten) or that science students were so smugly superior

 

[jmendez29]

Here's an old joke for you.

What did the liberal arts graduate say to the engineering graduate?












Would you like fries with that?

 

[swinginchandra]

Hahahahaha
<devils advocate>

We have this thing about breadth of education in American schools - and it's actually useful. Look at the number of technical innovations that have come out of our top institutions when compared with the number of similar innovations that have come from institutions with no cross-pollination between departments.

Now think of it this way - the type of physics classes you are talking about - how on earth would an English major survive? Why should we force them to study something they have no aptitude for? Isn't it enough that they have some general knowledge of the subject?
A physics professor made an interesting comment, talking about the exact ( ) same subject - he said the NFL doesn't survive because of the 1% of football-heads that are actually in the NFL, it survives because so much of America has a general interest in football. He believes similarly physics wouldn't survive if the general populace had no knowledge of it, and thus interest in it.

Fair or not, we use english in our lives, and they don't use physics in theirs.

If it makes you feel any better, we'll (on average) make more money, with less years of education. (bachelors compared to masters or Ph.D) Our schooling will mean something directly to our career. Theirs will be a "good life experience".

Don't get me wrong, I bloody hate an english class as much as the next "scientist" type.

oh, no offense intended to any english types...

 

[swinginchandra]

I'm not talking about about vector calculus and Diff EQ and statics and thermodnamics.

what I am saying is that an introductory physics class for scientists and engineers is far different than an introductory physics class for non scientists. why the double standard, Mr. logic? key word there being introductory.

<more devils advocate>

hmmm - interesting.

So, what if you think of it as two different courses entirely. They are taking a science, to fulfill their Gen-Eds. That science just so happens to be physics. Also what we have to take - but what we have to take is labelled "Physics for Engineering Majors" - totally different course. We are taking it as a major requirement, not to satisfy gen-ed. That makes it different to me

I'm seriously cracking up trying to imagine some of my liberal arts type friends surviving through the aforementioned killer final. They would probably have started crying after the 3rd page.

 

[GregR]

<more devils advocate>

hmmm - interesting.

So, what if you think of it as two different courses entirely. They are taking a science, to fulfill their Gen-Eds. That science just so happens to be physics. Also what we have to take - but what we have to take is labelled "Physics for Engineering Majors" - totally different course. We are taking it as a major requirement, not to satisfy gen-ed. That makes it different to me

I'm seriously cracking up trying to imagine some of my liberal arts type friends surviving through the aforementioned killer final. They would probably have started crying after the 3rd page.

see that's my gripe. they have to take some sort of science to satisfy general education requirements, and we have to take some sort of liberal arts to satisfy general education requirements as well. they get the watered down version of an introductory class while we get the 'roided up body builder version. but that is only for the science classes. they get to take the easy class and concentrate on their REAL classes while we take the our real classes AND their real classes. it just seems, to me, like a system set up against science.

 

[GregR]

Because they're not general liberal arts requirements. They are not foundational to being an educated person, as western society has defined it over the past few hundred years.

I had no idea that students were so whiney (or maybe I'd just forgotten) or that science students were so smugly superior

but every student has to satisfy some sort of science requirement because they are foundational to being an educated person, as western society has defined it over the past few hundred years.

so, why the free pass for one but not the other?

 

[shecky]

Our schooling will mean something directly to our career. Theirs will be a "good life experience".

What an absolute load of bull painted with a very broad brush. I was an English major, sports journalism concentration because my school at the time did not have a journalism major. Guess what I do for a living?

see that's my gripe. they have to take some sort of science to satisfy general education requirements, and we have to take some sort of liberal arts to satisfy general education requirements as well. they get the watered down version of an introductory class while we get the 'roided up body builder version. but that is only for the science classes. they get to take the easy class and concentrate on their REAL classes while we take the our real classes AND their real classes. it just seems, to me, like a system set up against science.

What another absolute load of bull. I can guarantee you aren't required to take my 'real' classes. I'm fairly certain you didn't have to write a thesis on the incestual themes running through F. Scott Fitzgerald's work, particularly "Tender is the Night."

So it has no practical application. So what? If that's what us English majors chose to pursue, who are you to denigrate that?