Why do all of my beers have a slight cardboard/mud taste?

[HappyWarrior]

I've probably done about 30 brews to date. Around 10 extract and 20 AG.

I'm super-careful with my cleaning/sanitation and also on the old oxygen front.

But still...every beer has that slight muddy/cardboard taste to it. I'm at a loss for how I'm causing it.

Is this anything else folks have encountered?

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

Let me guess, you're bottling and transferring from fermenter to bottling bucket and using a bottling wand?

Another question, do your beers seem to get darker in color as they age?

I'd put money on oxidation.

 

[HappyWarrior]

You're correct with the former. I don't secondary and rack straight from the fermentor to bottling pale (no wand, just the tube), then bottle with a wand.

I don't seem to notice any darkening in color, although it's not something I've paid too much attention to.

 

[TopherM]

+1, cardboard is typically oxidation. You'll want to pay attention to make sure you are taking extra care to keep from introducing ANY oxygen once alcohol is present.

So that means be careful when you are moving around your primary post fermentation, make sure you aren't opening your primary more than necessary during fermentation, be careful when racking from primary to bottles, make sure you have good bottle fills with only about 1"-1.5" of headspace, things like that.

Good luck!

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

I'm very sensitive to oxidation off-flavors. I had major problems with beers I was bottling even though others drinking the same beer could barely taste it if at all.

I was unable to get past the oxidation issues until I started kegging and doing all of my transfers with CO2 pressure or under CO2 pressure.

I'm at the point where my beers will not be exposed to open air from the moment yeast gets going until it leaves the tap into my glass.

 

[TheHappyHopper]

How are you adding the priming sugar? Are you aggressively stirring it in the bottling bucket? That would cause oxidation.

 

[jimbobbillyray]

I'm curious on the priming sugar also (if you're not already) put the priming sugar water into the bottling bucket then siphon into bucket with enough tubing to insure a coil in the bottom of the bucket (thus filling bottom up......(how I do it at least) I get a good mixture this way without any stirring whatsoever

 

[pablosbrewing]

Check out the BJCP Off Flavor flash cards for more info:
http://www.bjcp.org/docs/OffFlavorFlash.pdf

 

[Troutchaser]

Let me guess, you're bottling and transferring from fermenter to bottling bucket and using a bottling wand?

Another question, do your beers seem to get darker in color as they age?

I'd put money on oxidation.

Wow I've been battling the same issues in my brews and this is exactly what I do. So how do I bottle and not oxidize my beer?

 

[MaxStout]

I bottle and have had problems with oxidation off-flavors. I had used an autosiphon and noticed that it drew a lot of air bubbles into the beer flow. The plunger sealed well against the outer tube, but I discovered that air was being sucked in between the plunger ring and the plunger tube itself (where the o-ring is seated). The bubbles were so numerous that I started calling the device the "auto-aerator." I even bought a new one and the same problem occurred. I was diligent in disassembling it after use, but the problem persisted.

I recently switched to something like the Sterile Siphon Starter.

I made mine from a carboy cap, stainless racking cane and some tubing. I use CO2 to force-start the siphon (just a few PSI), and...no bubbles! And CO2 is going into the carboy, not air. I'll be interested to see if that makes a difference once those beers become ready to drink.

 

[rocketsan]

I made that three inch piece of tubing to the bottling wand hanging from the spigot. Could this be the point where oxidation is happening? I'm super careful about agitating the beer especially when transferring to bottling bucket...

 

[kh54s10]

I bottle and have had problems with oxidation off-flavors. I had used an autosiphon and noticed that it drew a lot of air bubbles into the beer flow. The plunger sealed well against the outer tube, but I discovered that air was being sucked in between the plunger ring and the plunger tube itself (where the o-ring is seated). The bubbles were so numerous that I started calling the device the "auto-aerator." I even bought a new one and the same problem occurred. I was diligent in disassembling it after use, but the problem persisted.

How could air be getting in here? This part is submerged when siphoning.

I made that three inch piece of tubing to the bottling wand hanging from the spigot. Could this be the point where oxidation is happening? I'm super careful about agitating the beer especially when transferring to bottling bucket...

If your piece of tubing is tight enough there should be no air getting in. Look for bubbles at the joint of the tubing to the wand. If they are there you need to tighten things.

 

[ncbrewer]

I found air getting in were tubing attached to the racking cane. A cable tie tightened around the connection solved the problem.

 

[MaxStout]

How could air be getting in here? This part is submerged when siphoning.

Air gets in from above. It comes in the space between the inner and outer tubes and is drawn between the seal and the plunger.

 

[kh54s10]

Air gets in from above. It comes in the space between the inner and outer tubes and is drawn between the seal and the plunger.

The air in the tube will not get to the end of the racking cane part of the autosiphon unless you keep it at the top of the outer tube. When you get the siphon started push the cane all the way down and no air can possibly get in from this end.

 

[Smellyglove]

I bottle and have had problems with oxidation off-flavors. I had used an autosiphon and noticed that it drew a lot of air bubbles into the beer flow. The plunger sealed well against the outer tube, but I discovered that air was being sucked in between the plunger ring and the plunger tube itself (where the o-ring is seated). The bubbles were so numerous that I started calling the device the "auto-aerator." I even bought a new one and the same problem occurred. I was diligent in disassembling it after use, but the problem persisted.

I recently switched to something like the Sterile Siphon Starter.

I made mine from a carboy cap, stainless racking cane and some tubing. I use CO2 to force-start the siphon (just a few PSI), and...no bubbles! And CO2 is going into the carboy, not air. I'll be interested to see if that makes a difference once those beers become ready to drink.

Did you mean you co2 is going into you bottling carboy? Unless it's tight (like a lid) I don't think this has much to say. A guy from another forum I read has a DO-meter and experimented with fluching bottles and carboys before racking and siphoning. Flushing the bottling carboy without a lid, had close to no effect what so ever. Flushing bottles had some effect (when reading the DO-meter)

I don't have a DO meter myself, but I've been playing around with flushing small bottling fermentors (5L), and flushing bottles. and just using taste as reference. My experience is that if it's not sealed it doesn't help.

My beers, especially IPA's has gotten a way longer shelf life, and also initially better tasting when I went from bottling the normal way, with sugar etc, to kegging, and kegging into a closed-loop-keg, and counterpressure-filled into bottles from kegs.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

I also think many of you who bottle from a bottling bucket are underestimating the most obvious source of oxidation, the surface of your beer in the bucket.

Hear me out, when you sipon your beer from the fermenter to the bottling bucket (which is wide open and not flushed with CO2) it exposes all of the wort that swirls around from the bottom to the top with the air in the bucket.

Congratulations, you just oxidized all of your beer.

When I stopped using a bottling bucket I stopped having oxidation issues.

 

[jimbobbillyray]

How then do you mix your priming sugar without using the bottling bucket and 2) how does oxygen get into the beer when you are filling from the bottom up the air above the beer is staying above it??? (same reason you bottle with wand bottom to the top?

 

[brew_darrymore]

Air gets in from above. It comes in the space between the inner and outer tubes and is drawn between the seal and the plunger.

I had that problem in the past as well. The seal was not tight enough and air was getting sucked between the plunger and the outer tube. After researching the topic, I found a solution which worked great for me and many others.

What you need to do is pour some of your beer in the outer tube. That small amount of beer (4-5oz, 150ml) submerges the plunger completely in beer and no air is sucked in.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

How then do you mix your priming sugar without using the bottling bucket and 2) how does oxygen get into the beer when you are filling from the bottom up the air above the beer is staying above it??? (same reason you bottle with wand bottom to the top?

If your beer is in contact with air, it's in contact with oxygen. You don't need splashing, agitation, bubbles... Yes, those things will increase the effect because it is increasing the surface area exposed, but you already have exposed surfaces, and since you are swirling in the bucket you are exposing a very large percentage of your beer to the open air.

I stopped using a bottling bucket and bottled straight from my fermenters. Soon after I switched to kegging and haven't looked back since.

 

[MaxStout]

The air in the tube will not get to the end of the racking cane part of the autosiphon unless you keep it at the top of the outer tube. When you get the siphon started push the cane all the way down and no air can possibly get in from this end.

I haven't been explaining myself well. Let me try this again.

After the siphon is created (with plunger in down position and no column of air above the beer in the siphon chamber) and beer is flowing, air starts leaking through the plunger end. Not between the plunger gasket and outer tube, but through the plunger end itself. The plunger end is comprised of two components: a white rubber gasket seated around a black cylindrical plunger member. The air is leaking through a gap between the gasket and plunger, then passes upward in the form of bubbles through the siphon tube with the beer. Having the plunger all the way down does not stop air from passing through it, as the leak occurs in the plunger end.

I watched the bubbles emerge from that point. They did not originate from any other point. My eyes did not deceive me.

 

[MaxStout]

Did you mean you co2 is going into you bottling carboy? Unless it's tight (like a lid) I don't think this has much to say. A guy from another forum I read has a DO-meter and experimented with fluching bottles and carboys before racking and siphoning. Flushing the bottling carboy without a lid, had close to no effect what so ever. Flushing bottles had some effect (when reading the DO-meter)

I don't have a DO meter myself, but I've been playing around with flushing small bottling fermentors (5L), and flushing bottles. and just using taste as reference. My experience is that if it's not sealed it doesn't help.

My beers, especially IPA's has gotten a way longer shelf life, and also initially better tasting when I went from bottling the normal way, with sugar etc, to kegging, and kegging into a closed-loop-keg, and counterpressure-filled into bottles from kegs.

The carboy cap is tight. I'm not using CO2 to flush the air out of the carboy. I am using the CO2 to force a siphon, as I stated in my previous post.