Why clarity? Why aging?

[SatanPrinceOfDarkness]

I've made just a few ciders, and I haven't crashed or aged any of them. Of all the homebrewed cider I've ever had, my favorite was a backsweetened one that I made with added cinnamon and maple syrup for sweetening and priming. It, along with all the ciders I've made, was cloudy and we started to drink within a month of the start of fermentation. In my opinion, it was the most like regular 'apple cider' like we buy in the US during the autumn and winter. Cloudy and sweet. Basically it is a carbonated and alcoholic version of that, and that's why I like it.

I've had other homebrewed ciders that were dry and clear and aged. My impression from reading this forum is that is considered more ideal, but I don't understand why? Why is clear better? What flavors come from aging that you like?

 

[wolves63]

I've made just a few ciders, and I haven't crashed or aged any of them. Of all the homebrewed cider I've ever had, my favorite was a backsweetened one that I made with added cinnamon and maple syrup for sweetening and priming. It, along with all the ciders I've made, was cloudy and we started to drink within a month of the start of fermentation. In my opinion, it was the most like regular 'apple cider' like we buy in the US during the autumn and winter. Cloudy and sweet. Basically it is a carbonated and alcoholic version of that, and that's why I like it.

I've had other homebrewed ciders that were dry and clear and aged. My impression from reading this forum is that is considered more ideal, but I don't understand why? Why is clear better? What flavors come from aging that you like?

Aging is the most important aspect of it, clarity doesn't really matter, but does play into aging as it is a good indicator. Aging gives the yeast time to clean up its mess and off flavors, but if you have great flavor and your gravity is right then go ahead and drink it.

 

[Maylar]

Clarity has come to be an indicator of craftsmanship in some circles. Does it really matter? No. In fact there are a few commercial and craft ciders that are cloudy on purpose. It's a personal thing. My ciders and meads are crystal clear but I'll happily drink someone else's that isn't.

Aging changes the taste of the cider. You can have drinkable cider in 4-5 weeks but the same cider after 4 months is a whole new experience.

 

[laredo7mm]

...In my opinion, it was the most like regular 'apple cider' like we buy in the US during the autumn and winter. Cloudy and sweet. Basically it is a carbonated and alcoholic version of that, and that's why I like it...

I'm not a cider expert my any means, but if what you like is what you described above, why go through the process of fermenting the cider in the first place? You can just go buy apple cider from the orchard and put some vodka and flavoring in it and then keg to carb?

If you like your cider that sweet, then that is a completely different game than what most people here are trying to make. Most people like it dry, semi-dry, or semi-sweet....so an FG of lets say, 1.000 to 1.015.

The cider you are describing sounds like you like it at 1.030 and above (orchard cider is usually in the 1.050 range). In that case, I don't think you would need to age it out.

Don't get me wrong, though. You like what you like and no one can knock you for that. But when people talk about clarifying an aging, it is a relatively low FG without much residual sugar left so aging definitely helps the flavor.

As an experiment, go get a gallon of fresh, preservative free cider and throw some yeast in it and let it ferment to completion. Give it a taste and then compare that to the aged home brewed cider that you have had.

 

[madscientist451]

If you like the cider you are making, I wouldn't change a thing. Keep making and keep drinking it.
I age my cider to let the yeast settle out and let the flavors mellow and develop. If I run out of last year's cider, I'll drink this year's young.
The cider clears by itself as it ages, but I don't care what it looks like.
Everyone has their own tastes, I like a dry English type cider, buy you like a sweet cider and that's fine. There is no right or wrong when it comes to what you like. I've had some very tannic French ciders that are Ok, but only in small quantities. To some, the French ciders set the traditional standard that should be emulated. Some beverages require an acquired taste. For example, some people don't like hoppy or roasty beers, but if they try a mild version, they eventually might like them more. A good thing to do is to seek out commercial ciders and see what the different styles are like.

 

[SatanPrinceOfDarkness]

Aging is the most important aspect of it, clarity doesn't really matter, but does play into aging as it is a good indicator. Aging gives the yeast time to clean up its mess and off flavors, but if you have great flavor and your gravity is right then go ahead and drink it.

For cleaning up the yeast/off flavors. Is that basically the same as with beer? I've heard of people complaining about green beer, but have never really rushed it quite that much with beer. My impression is that most people are happy drinking an IPA that went into primary 5 weeks earlier.

I've seen people mention aging cider for a year, so I'm curious what kind of flavors specifically develop from that? Are we talking about wine flavors - tannins? Or is it something else?

 

[SatanPrinceOfDarkness]

Clarity has come to be an indicator of craftsmanship in some circles. Does it really matter? No. In fact there are a few commercial and craft ciders that are cloudy on purpose. It's a personal thing. My ciders and meads are crystal clear but I'll happily drink someone else's that isn't.

Aging changes the taste of the cider. You can have drinkable cider in 4-5 weeks but the same cider after 4 months is a whole new experience.

What's the difference with the 'whole new experience'? What's the change in flavors?

and thanks!

 

[buMbLeB]

I'm not a cider expert my any means, but if what you like is what you described above, why go through the process of fermenting the cider in the first place? You can just go buy apple cider from the orchard and put some vodka and flavoring in it and then keg to carb?

This is what I don't get - I likewise am a fan of my own "young" cider (don't like it sweet though), in about 2 weeks I've gone from juice to cold-crashed cider on tap straight out of the fridge, and I've received favourable feedback. And yet, when I read what you wrote above, I shivered involuntarily. That's nasty!

What am I missing? Do I have a faulty tastebud?

 

[akthor]

I like "sweet" ciders myself. I even put a couple packs of splenda in my glad of Apfelwein. But I know others that prefer the "dry" style of ciders.

 

[siletzspey]

In my own experience over 5 seasons, a young cider can taste good at the time, but once it ages 9-12 months, in retrospect that same young cider tasted comparatively thin, and often had weird, sour and sulfur notes in it.

I've done ciders with commercial yeasts where at 3 months I've said "it's ok, but I wish it didn't have xyz taste-wise", but at 12 months, no negatives. The bad notes disappeared.

I've done ciders, especially with wild yeast, where at 3 months I've said "it tastes thin, I wish it had more apple flavor", and at 12 months, the apple flavor was far more pronounced.

Until you age out to 12+ months and compare, it's hard to realize what your missing in a young cider.

--SiletzSpey

 

[Maylar]

What's the difference with the 'whole new experience'? What's the change in flavors?

and thanks!

Time seems to bring out more apple flavor and aroma in cider. I don't have a trained pallet, so I'm not qualified to use tasting terms beyond that.

If you can put a gallon aside for 3-4 months you'll definitely notice an improvement. And as others have pointed out, if the cider has any flaws or off flavors due to less-than-ideal fermenting, a lot of that will "age out".

There's a famous quote attributed to Benjamin Franklin, "Give me yesterday's bread, this day's flesh, and last year's cider".

 

[laredo7mm]

This is what I don't get - I likewise am a fan of my own "young" cider (don't like it sweet though), in about 2 weeks I've gone from juice to cold-crashed cider on tap straight out of the fridge, and I've received favourable feedback. And yet, when I read what you wrote above, I shivered involuntarily. That's nasty!

What am I missing? Do I have a faulty tastebud?

I guess what you are missing is that my first comment, that you quoted, was in direct response to the OP saying;

...In my opinion, it was the most like regular 'apple cider' like we buy in the US during the autumn and winter. Cloudy and sweet. Basically it is a carbonated and alcoholic version of that, and that's why I like it...

 

[SatanPrinceOfDarkness]

Regarding the vodka idea, it's a good question. I'm curious how it would compare. I don't have a kegging setup yet, sadly, but perhaps I can ask a friend to create a draft cocktail to that idea.

I somewhat understand why people here want the more subtle flavors of aged, dry cider, but I'm surprised at the lack of interest in sweet cider.

I'm not a cider expert my any means, but if what you like is what you described above, why go through the process of fermenting the cider in the first place? You can just go buy apple cider from the orchard and put some vodka and flavoring in it and then keg to carb?

If you like your cider that sweet, then that is a completely different game than what most people here are trying to make. Most people like it dry, semi-dry, or semi-sweet....so an FG of lets say, 1.000 to 1.015.

The cider you are describing sounds like you like it at 1.030 and above (orchard cider is usually in the 1.050 range). In that case, I don't think you would need to age it out.

Don't get me wrong, though. You like what you like and no one can knock you for that. But when people talk about clarifying an aging, it is a relatively low FG without much residual sugar left so aging definitely helps the flavor.

As an experiment, go get a gallon of fresh, preservative free cider and throw some yeast in it and let it ferment to completion. Give it a taste and then compare that to the aged home brewed cider that you have had.

 

[SatanPrinceOfDarkness]

In my own experience over 5 seasons, a young cider can taste good at the time, but once it ages 9-12 months, in retrospect that same young cider tasted comparatively thin, and often had weird, sour and sulfur notes in it.

I've done ciders with commercial yeasts where at 3 months I've said "it's ok, but I wish it didn't have xyz taste-wise", but at 12 months, no negatives. The bad notes disappeared.

I've done ciders, especially with wild yeast, where at 3 months I've said "it tastes thin, I wish it had more apple flavor", and at 12 months, the apple flavor was far more pronounced.

Until you age out to 12+ months and compare, it's hard to realize what your missing in a young cider.

--SiletzSpey

Interesting! I might compare this to the differences in beer that is drank young vs aged. An IPA has so much flavor when it's young that subtle notes, good or bad, might be covered over. Same with a sweet cider I suspect. Whereas an aged sour beer is very dry and needs time for those byproducts to be cleaned up.

What surprises me is the idea of new flavors developing over time. Age in a beer is usually to add flavor from oak or to let fusels and byproducts break down. I would have thought that fruit flavors were volatile and best young. But I don't think I know that.

 

[SatanPrinceOfDarkness]

Time seems to bring out more apple flavor and aroma in cider. I don't have a trained pallet, so I'm not qualified to use tasting terms beyond that.

If you can put a gallon aside for 3-4 months you'll definitely notice an improvement. And as others have pointed out, if the cider has any flaws or off flavors due to less-than-ideal fermenting, a lot of that will "age out".

There's a famous quote attributed to Benjamin Franklin, "Give me yesterday's bread, this day's flesh, and last year's cider".

I'm curious how this compares to mead. It used to be that mead had to be aged, but with modern yeasts and nutrients, they can be lovely quite young.

 

[Maylar]

True, but even mead benefits from time. Take the classic JAOM for example. When finished fermenting it's awful - spices and orange in-your-face. At 2 months it's very drinkable and at 8 months it changes into something awesome. Flavors focus, the clove fades a bit, and the orange aroma becomes delightful.

But you're right that the state of the art in mead has come a long way. Maybe someday someone will figure out how to do that with cider.

 

[Klickitat]

The biggest problem here in America right now when it comes to cider, is the lost heritage and change in definition of cider and our expectation of what a cider should be based on fresh cider.

Prohibition and the great depression conspired to steal cider from us and replaced it with cold pressed fresh cider. Now we have a re-emergence of cider to the US but most folks come to it with the idea of fresh cider in their mind. Mass marketing is not helping the idea of this go away either. It seems to me that there almost needs to be a category called New American Style that incorporates the taste of sweet farm fresh cider that many like.

I am a dry to semi dry cider person myself. With that said, I did however try some cider that was a whole new experience for me and can see the fascination for the sweet stuff.

A friend of mine tried to ferment a batch of cider that had the brix off the scale and was using turbo yeast to try and get a high proof cider. The fermentation stuck and could not get anything more than 5% conversion of the sugars no matter what he did.

He ended up throwing it into a pot and stripping it. The cider that he pulled out of the pot however was fantastic. It was a super dark cider with all the farm fresh taste of fresh cider with a brewed flavor that put the taste over the edge. It was super concentrated after running through the pot. It was less than 2% alcohol and fantastic. It reminded me of drinking dessert and one could only sip on a 4 oz glass without going into diabetic shock.

The point of this last part is that cider even sweet as some people like gets a brewed flavor that you can not get by just mixing fresh cider with vodka. I can definitely see the benefits of fermenting cider even if you like it in the style of fresh cider.

 

[bernardsmith]

SatanPrinceOf Darkness, You backsweeten so you know that sweetness and or dryness has nothing to do with aging. You have complete control over the sweetness of any cider but one thing that aging does - often , not always, but often is allow the harsher malic acid in apples to be transformed to softer , smoother lactic acids. This can happen if you use certain yeasts - such as 71B which can transform about 40% of malic to lactic over months and it can happen if there are enough malo-lactic bacteria in the cider to create a secondary malo-lactic fermentation. All other things being equal you can taste the difference when you compare a cider that is 3 months old and one that is 12. But that said, you do NOT want any malo-lactic fermentation if you backsweeten after stabilizing the cider with K-meta and K-sorbate. The action of the fermentation on the sorbate will produce a chemical called gerinol (I think it is called) and that will result in tastes and aromas of geraniums. In other words, IF you back sweeten your cider aging may not be something you want to do...

 

[SatanPrinceOfDarkness]

SatanPrinceOf Darkness, You backsweeten so you know that sweetness and or dryness has nothing to do with aging. You have complete control over the sweetness of any cider but one thing that aging does - often , not always, but often is allow the harsher malic acid in apples to be transformed to softer , smoother lactic acids. This can happen if you use certain yeasts - such as 71B which can transform about 40% of malic to lactic over months and it can happen if there are enough malo-lactic bacteria in the cider to create a secondary malo-lactic fermentation. All other things being equal you can taste the difference when you compare a cider that is 3 months old and one that is 12. But that said, you do NOT want any malo-lactic fermentation if you backsweeten after stabilizing the cider with K-meta and K-sorbate. The action of the fermentation on the sorbate will produce a chemical called gerinol (I think it is called) and that will result in tastes and aromas of geraniums. In other words, IF you back sweeten your cider aging may not be something you want to do...

My method of back sweetening especially wouldn't work because I don't do anything to stop the fermentation. I just put the bottles in the fridge once they're carbed. I left a few out last time, for months, and they never blew up it became gushers. Not something I'd try all the time, but an interesting result. (I've had bottle bombs in homebrew before too.)

 

[chunkychicken]

I've made just a few ciders, and I haven't crashed or aged any of them. Of all the homebrewed cider I've ever had, my favorite was a backsweetened one that I made with added cinnamon and maple syrup for sweetening and priming. It, along with all the ciders I've made, was cloudy and we started to drink within a month of the start of fermentation. In my opinion, it was the most like regular 'apple cider' like we buy in the US during the autumn and winter. Cloudy and sweet. Basically it is a carbonated and alcoholic version of that, and that's why I like it.

I've had other homebrewed ciders that were dry and clear and aged. My impression from reading this forum is that is considered more ideal, but I don't understand why? Why is clear better? What flavors come from aging that you like?

Clarity becaude as one poster remarked, its a reflection of skill and patience. Ageing for the sole reason of improving the flavour. 1 month vs 3 months has such an amazing contrast in flavours. Gives time for all the ingredients to balance oit and that overpowering dryness to break down into something more palatable.

I aged for 3 months with my previous brews and they were fantastic.

 

[mwilcox]

SatanPrinceOf Darkness, You backsweeten so you know that sweetness and or dryness has nothing to do with aging. You have complete control over the sweetness of any cider but one thing that aging does - often , not always, but often is allow the harsher malic acid in apples to be transformed to softer , smoother lactic acids. This can happen if you use certain yeasts - such as 71B which can transform about 40% of malic to lactic over months and it can happen if there are enough malo-lactic bacteria in the cider to create a secondary malo-lactic fermentation. All other things being equal you can taste the difference when you compare a cider that is 3 months old and one that is 12. But that said, you do NOT want any malo-lactic fermentation if you backsweeten after stabilizing the cider with K-meta and K-sorbate. The action of the fermentation on the sorbate will produce a chemical called gerinol (I think it is called) and that will result in tastes and aromas of geraniums. In other words, IF you back sweeten your cider aging may not be something you want to do...

I see 71B and MLF mentioned quite often.
71B consumes some malic acid, but does not itself perform MLF.

 

[bernardsmith]

My understanding is that it does not. The conversion is part of what it does as a yeast. MLF is a separate bacterial fermentation that employs enzymes to convert malic into lactic . That is to say, MLF is not yeast based. http://www-dev.uark.edu/depts/ifse/grapeprog/articles/ajev58-3-2w.pdf But I am not a biochemist and I may be wrong.

 

[BrewSavage]

Making clear cider is like ironing a sharp crease into your blue jeans.

 

[buMbLeB]

Making clear cider is like ironing a sharp crease into your blue jeans.

My ciders clear by themselves, but I like this so much I can't help but thumbs up.

 

[bmd2k1]

Clarity has come to be an indicator of craftsmanship in some circles. Does it really matter? No. In fact there are a few commercial and craft ciders that are cloudy on purpose. It's a personal thing. My ciders and meads are crystal clear but I'll happily drink someone else's that isn't.

Aging changes the taste of the cider. You can have drinkable cider in 4-5 weeks but the same cider after 4 months is a whole new experience.

How much impact does temp ya age it at have? ie) basement temps mid60s...vs fridge temps mid30s. ??