Why are so many people letting beer sit so long??

[oljimmy]

The consensus of what, five people?

Keep drinking the weak stuff that tastes like pine cones and lawn clippings.

Whatever real-life inadequacy or frustration is causing you to become this kind of person on the internet, I am truly sorry. It must be awful.

 

[joe_four_strings]

i do session ipas and wheat beers from grain to glass in around 12 days and these beers have both gone on to get gold medals. So i'm just wanting to hear why people think their beer should sit so long. Cheers!

:d

 

[rekoob]

I let it sit in primary until it's clear, and then transfer to keg.

This is what I do too.

 

[HBngNOK]

I think I don't care what others think about how long my beer sits.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Pretty much all of my less than 6% beers go two weeks in primary and a third week in the refrigerator getting carbonated at serving pressure. There's not a lot more than I can say other than I've been doing this for years.

 

[Komodo]

It sits until I feel like bottling, which I hate. So, there's that.

I don't get the comments like "you lose two weeks for nothing". Because, I don't stop drinking beer, it's not the only beer I have in the house, and I'm doing lots of other productive things in that time . . . If it makes people feel better, I do pass the fermentors and think "hmm, I need to bottle that". If someone gifted me 250 more bottles and offered to do it, I could get the 25 gallons bottled that is just sitting there wasting my time.

 

[Hello]

I've thought a lot about this, because not only do I risk infection when racking, but it's just another step requiring work and cleaning!! lol However I've found that as soon as I rack into secondary I get a pretty quick clearing of the beer that I wouldn't get if I left it in primary (I did a side by side of a ten gallon batch that I split). However I'd love to get away from using a secondary.

If you rack to secondary after 4-6 days, is there a good amount of yeast sitting on the bottom of your carboy after you rack from secondary to the keg?

I ask because you're basically moving the beer from primary while there is likely a good deal of yeast in suspension. Doing what you're doing is no doubt helping the beer clear sooner, but I would suspect your secondary vessel has a layer of yeast that I wouldn't get if I racked to secondary after about 10 days.

On the other hand, I only rack to secondary if I am bulk aging long term.

 

[Psylocide]

Try the whirlfloc at 5 minutes. It's crazy how much more effective it is. 15 minutes of boiling denatures most of it.

My process: Brew, pitch and ferment for usually 10 days. Cold crash primary down to near freezing. Hit with gelatin as soon as near freezing, give it 2-3 days until crystal clear. Rack to keg, carb away.

I prefer to put clear beer in the keg; that's just me.

My google-fu turned up quite a few hits on this... guess I'll give it a shot in my next brew.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[Yooper]

My google-fu turned up quite a few hits on this... guess I'll give it a shot in my next brew.

Thanks for the tip.

It works great- but I have to admit that when I add it at 5 minutes instead of 10-15, I forget about 1/2 the time. It's like I'm so distracted thinking of the late hops and the whirlpool or chilling that I forget to add it at that time. After I chill, I look over and there is the tablet sitting there, right on top of my brewsheet. That's what happened on my latest batch too!

 

[Psylocide]

It works great- but I have to admit that when I add it at 5 minutes instead of 10-15, I forget about 1/2 the time. It's like I'm so distracted thinking of the late hops and the whirlpool or chilling that I forget to add it at that time. After I chill, I look over and there is the tablet sitting there, right on top of my brewsheet. That's what happened on my latest batch too!

I wasn't even using it up until my last 3 brews. I really didn't care too much about how clear the beer was at first, now I'm doing everything I can (with my current method) to get there.

My suggestion to anyone doing no chill brewing is to ALWAYS use whirlfloc. I don't think I'll ever forget that now.

My no chill cream ale fermented for 10 days @ 61°, then was kegged and fined with gelatin. By day 14, I had near-commercial clarity.

 

[Kharnynb]

I bottle, so I can't really get much under 2 weeks fermenter/2 weeks bottle-condition.

I prefer not to open the fermenter until i bottle, so I rather do a full 14 days fermentation instead of risking contaminating the bucket.

 

[-CHRIS-]

I have been brewing for 8 months or so. I am all-grain based and use a BruGear conical fermenter. With my ales and lagers I always check SG after 10 days, wait 3 days, then check it again. If the SG hasn't changed, I keg it, if it has I will let it sit for another 3 days. All my beers get a yeast starter on a stir plate based on online calculators. I have done a few stouts and they seem to take a little longer.

I keg everything and even with forced rapid carbonation, shaking the keg, I find a minimum of week aging in really necessary to get the best flavors out of the beer.

I am not sure if the resting during fermentation or the resting after carbonation may result in the same outcome, a clearer tasting/looking beer?

Chris

 

[didinho]

Agreed. Studies show that yeast is cleaning up after itself for at least a few days after FG is basically reached. So leaving in primary for 10-14 days or even longer is not a bad idea. There is no downside but only upside. And all you have to do is do nothing for a week or so. Which is very easy to do!

I totally agree. yeast eliminates diacetil, polyalcohols if stays longer in the carboy. and there is a better precipitation of yeast, hops residues. so beer is cleaner, itself and in the taste

 

[kombat]

I've found that as soon as I rack into secondary I get a pretty quick clearing of the beer that I wouldn't get if I left it in primary

What possible scientific reason could explain this theory?

Why would beer clear faster without the presence of a yeast cake at the bottom?

 

[ANewrBrewr]

:d

I would love a cookie! But more importantly I was proving that good beers can be made in 2 weeks and was hoping to get some intelligent input on the possibility of my beers improving if I let them go longer.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

Agreed. Studies show that yeast is cleaning up after itself for at least a few days after FG is basically reached. So leaving in primary for 10-14 days or even longer is not a bad idea. There is no downside but only upside. And all you have to do is do nothing for a week or so. Which is very easy to do!
. Of course it depends on the beer. Low ABV beers may not need as much time as high ABV. And hoppy beers can hide the subtle off tastes. Which may explain why for session IPA you can get away with short fermentation and basically no conditioning.
I also agree that commercial breweries need to push out beers faster than perhaps ideal to make profit. For homebrewers there is really no rush and quality is much more important than highest throughput. If you really brew every week (who is drinking all that beer btw?) I would just get an extra carboy. I have three and in theory could brew 6 X 5-gallon batches a month with 2 weeks in primary before bottling. If I shorten it to one week I can go up to 60 gallons a month instead of 30. In reality I average 5-10 gallons most months.

In addition, commercial breweries have a chemist and a microbiologist on staff to make adjustments to the grain bill. Most likely thety monitor fermentation, and tweak temps up and down on a more active basis. In a commericial brewery, it isn't about quality its about consistency.

 

[55x11]

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean so suggest that new brewers should be shooting for 14 days grain to glass! The point is that they can do primary in 14 days. If they bottle and that takes another 14, great, that's beer in a month. But they lose two weeks for basically nothing when they let the beer sit in primary/secondary for 31 days, that's beer in a month and a half. (of course this excludes beers that need conditioning and high-gravity beers)

if you are arguing for 14-day primary, I think it's pretty close to average of 2 maybe 3 weeks that is commonly advised, at least from what I have seen - except for big beers like RIS, where extended conditioning (in carboy or in bottles) is needed.

For some reason I thought the original point was to shorten primary to a week or so, which is certainly possible since FG (or pretty close to it) is often reached within 4-5 days.

I would still maintain that there are very few downsides to sticking to ~2 maybe 3 week primary, especially if you plan your brewing properly and have established a good pipeline of beers and brew regularly. I am very impatient person in general and part of the brewing "zen" is that it is teaching me to become calmer, more patient, and to also plan ahead. It's often tempting to try to "rush" the beer, and in many cases it can be done, with 1 week in primary and 1 week in bottles, but quality might suffer.

I also like the idea that with proper "planning ahead" I don't need to have a strict schedule of when to bottle. I can just be lazy and instead of bottling my 12-day old oatmeal stout I can postpone bottling till next week. And the beer will only get better as a result.

To me at least, a better approach, is to get another carboy, and plan a bit ahead. For example, I am traveling now but when I get back, I will brew some fall beers - pumpkin ale, maybe some oktoberfest. With the idea that in ~5 weeks (2-3 weeks in primary, +2 weeks or so in bottles), they will be ready to drink.

In September/October I will be brewing some Winter Holiday beers which may need a little longer to condition. In between I will be brewing whatever else comes to mind.

If I brew ~twice a month (every 2 weeks or so) and use 2 weeks or maybe 3 weeks in primary, means I need two carboys. I have three, so I can brew a big beer like RIS that may need 6 weeks of aging in primary, or a lager or something that requires extensive oaking, or an extra week of dry hopping, and it still works out just fine.

Speeding up the process and conditioning only for 1 week will only free up carboys, which doesn't really help - unless I decide to brew every 3-4 days or so.

 

[ANewrBrewr]

Harsh, sure. But let's take a glance back at the original post...



It didn't strike me as an innocent quest for knowledge.

Sorry I could have worded it a bit more tactful, but I thought we were a bunch of DIY beer drinking men (and women) and I wasn't too concerned with hurting peoples feelings...I apologize for the stress I've cause you Rhumbline! RDWHAHB!

PS-as to your initial question...this is why I don't post too often, what starts out as a simple question turns into a schoolyard quarrel!!

 

[ANewrBrewr]

What possible scientific reason could explain this theory?

Why would beer clear faster without the presence of a yeast cake at the bottom?

Not sure, my guess would be that just stirring things up a bit when the beer is transferred causes a lot of the trub, yeast, etc to flock together and then sink to the bottom...just a guess.

 

[m00ps]

Haha, this thread has gotten the exact amount of attention as I expected when I first saw this yesterday. Hopefully it wont get to "Whats up with commerical IPAs" levels

 

[55x11]

In addition, commercial breweries have a chemist and a microbiologist on staff to make adjustments to the grain bill. Most likely thety monitor fermentation, and tweak temps up and down on a more active basis. In a commericial brewery, it isn't about quality its about consistency.

Exactly. It's also about sales volumes and recouping the cost of equipment as quickly as possible. If you can push the beer out of fermenter and into the bottles or kegs in 5 days instead of 15 days, your equipment is effectively 3 times less expensive, as it will pay off 3 times faster. In other words - it allows 3 times the output capacity for ~the same upfront equipment costs.

For home brewers like myself, with limited storage and limited consumption rate (I know, hard to believe!), brewing every two weeks for a year or so will produce a lot more beer than I can drink myself or give away to neighbors (about 100 pints a month).

The bottleneck for me personally is consumption/proper storage of beer I brew, as well as my own time brewing, experimenting with recipes, bottling etc.

 

[55x11]

What possible scientific reason could explain this theory?

Why would beer clear faster without the presence of a yeast cake at the bottom?

I would guess some of the "cake" yeast, proteins and other particles still can get roused and go back into suspension (e.g. during bottling transfer)?

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

We could eliminate most of the thread by just using different language.

OP was talking about beer being **Done** and ready to drink in 2 weeks. If the beer is done and ready its done and ready. If its not, its not.

Final gravity has been reached and theres no obvious off flavors then the beer is **Done** and ready for packaging.

I personally find that I'll hit final gravity in the first 36-48 hours post pitch (large active starters) but I won't see a reduction in off flavors until its been on the cake for 2 weeks. Large *BUT* here, probably 80% of my beers are 1.060-1.080 starting gravity (yes, I am an alcoholic), I still hit my expected final gravity in the first 2-3 days, but I know if I wait till 2 week mark it'll be better and I won't risk bottle bombs (I used to try and rush to bottles in less than 10 days and I had more bottle bombs and gushers, which could be infections but more likely I didn't let the beer be **Done**).

 

[ANewrBrewr]

We could eliminate most of the thread by just using different language.

OP was talking about beer being **Done** and ready to drink in 2 weeks. If the beer is done and ready its done and ready. If its not, its not.

Final gravity has been reached and theres no obvious off flavors then the beer is **Done** and ready for packaging.

I personally find that I'll hit final gravity in the first 36-48 hours post pitch (large active starters) but I won't see a reduction in off flavors until its been on the cake for 2 weeks. Large *BUT* here, probably 80% of my beers are 1.060-1.080 starting gravity (yes, I am an alcoholic), I still hit my expected final gravity in the first 2-3 days, but I know if I wait till 2 week mark it'll be better and I won't risk bottle bombs (I used to try and rush to bottles in less than 10 days and I had more bottle bombs and gushers, which could be infections but more likely I didn't let the beer be **Done**).

36-48hrs seems way too fast for fermentation to be complete! What temps are you fermenting at? It seems with a fermentation done this quickly you would have a lot of fusel (hot) and possible ester (fruity) flavors that would definitely need time to mellow. I experienced a similar issue before I got a temp controller for my fermentation. Now I ferment exactly at 67F reach peak krausen on day 3-4 and it's done around day 5-6 and the resulting beer is far and above better than before. Although I only pitch a 1L yeast starter from slants, so maybe you're pitching a lot more yeast and your beer turns out great in that short time.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

36-48hrs seems way too fast for fermentation to be complete! What temps are you fermenting at? It seems with a fermentation done this quickly you would have a lot of fusel (hot) and possible ester (fruity) flavors that would definitely need time to mellow. I experienced a similar issue before I got a temp controller for my fermentation. Now I ferment exactly at 67F reach peak krausen on day 3-4 and it's done around day 5-6 and the resulting beer is far and above better than before. Although I only pitch a 1L yeast starter from slants, so maybe you're pitching a lot more yeast and your beer turns out great in that short time.

Lately I've been pushing up to 2L starters that are really rocking when I throw them in. I've had lag times as small as 3 hours and I start seeing major air lock activity. Also I do a lot of big Belgians that I really enjoy fermenting them in the low to upper 80s (love those big ester profiles), combine that with 10-20% sugar they finish very very quickly. Though on the flip side I do need to let them sit, I don't notice fusels but I could also be really insensitive to it (years of drinking Fleischman's vodka in my college years), but I definitely notice off flavors from the hot fast ferment. It all conditions out pretty quickly once I let the fermenter drop to basement ambient temps (summer thats 66F and winter its 55F).

I havent had complaints about green apple/burnt rubber/unpleasantly high esters/hot fusel alcohol in my finished beers. Once I put together active fermentation temperature control and a kegging system I'm sure I won't have to leave it in primary for as long on the yeast cake allowing it to clean up. I have a cheap-mans set up right now that I can get by on.

Again, it comes down to beer being done or not done. Mines done at 2 weeks for most batches. (I give away probably 30% of my batches to friends and family to drink, the rest I slowly work my way through, and now start sending off to competitions)

 

[ANewrBrewr]

Lately I've been pushing up to 2L starters that are really rocking when I throw them in. I've had lag times as small as 3 hours and I start seeing major air lock activity. Also I do a lot of big Belgians that I really enjoy fermenting them in the low to upper 80s (love those big ester profiles), combine that with 10-20% sugar they finish very very quickly. Though on the flip side I do need to let them sit, I don't notice fusels but I could also be really insensitive to it (years of drinking Fleischman's vodka in my college years), but I definitely notice off flavors from the hot fast ferment. It all conditions out pretty quickly once I let the fermenter drop to basement ambient temps (summer thats 66F and winter its 55F).

I havent had complaints about green apple/burnt rubber/unpleasantly high esters/hot fusel alcohol in my finished beers. Once I put together active fermentation temperature control and a kegging system I'm sure I won't have to leave it in primary for as long on the yeast cake allowing it to clean up. I have a cheap-mans set up right now that I can get by on.

Again, it comes down to beer being done or not done. Mines done at 2 weeks for most batches. (I give away probably 30% of my batches to friends and family to drink, the rest I slowly work my way through, and now start sending off to competitions)

For the styles you're brewing that setup sounds perfect! I did a mango saison that I fermented at around 95F. I put my primary in a igloo cooler filled with water and an aquarium heater to keep it at 95F. The beer went on to take gold at the Colorado State Fair last year!

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

For the styles you're brewing that setup sounds perfect! I did a mango saison that I fermented at around 95F. I put my primary in a igloo cooler filled with water and an aquarium heater to keep it at 95F. The beer went on to take gold at the Colorado State Fair last year!

Did you use fresh mango or a mango puree? I could eat mango all day long if it werent for the gigantic mess I make every time I try to take one apart. I have some of that Belle Saison dry yeast and I'm going to save some for a future batch of a fruited saison, and I have a lovely crawl space int he attic that loves to stay super hot all night and day.

 

[ANewrBrewr]

Did you use fresh mango or a mango puree? I could eat mango all day long if it werent for the gigantic mess I make every time I try to take one apart. I have some of that Belle Saison dry yeast and I'm going to save some for a future batch of a fruited saison, and I have a lovely crawl space int he attic that loves to stay super hot all night and day.

I've always made instant fruit extracts that have worked very well while using a small fraction of the fruit most suggest. For the saison I just took 3 fully ripe mangos chopped them up pretty fine tossed them in a flask covering the top of the fruit with white rum then putting it on a stir plate for 3-4 days. Then I just toss that mix into the secondary. The rum not only sanitizes the fruit, but also intensifies the flavor as the rum acts as a solvent extracting all the fruit goodness! Just did the same thing last week with a vanilla peach wheat beer. Only used 2 peaches and one vanilla bean (i brew 5g batches) and the aroma and flavor is stellar!

 

[jrgtr42]

I do a 3 week primary every time. I've tried shorter, I've tried longer. Its what works for me. I like clear beer. I don't like filtering, I don't like gelatin, and I don't like rushing the carbonation process.
:

This. For a time when I started, I would bottle after 2 weeks. the beers were drinkable, but not great. One time, something happened that I had to leave it another week, and that turned out the best beer I had brewed. That at the time was my only variable, aside from styles brewed.
Since then, I've generally given my beer 3 weeks in primary. I don't secondary aside from sours or oak-aging.
I also don't keg (yet) so force-carbing isn't an option, and again, I find 3 weeks gives better results than 2, so I wait the extra week before popping the first.
I have plans for a couple lower-gravity beer, that I could probably get out in 2 weeks, but most things are mid-to-high grav.

 

[Gavin C]

I've always made instant fruit extracts that have worked very well while using a small fraction of the fruit most suggest. For the saison I just took 3 fully ripe mangos chopped them up pretty fine tossed them in a flask covering the top of the fruit with white rum then putting it on a stir plate for 3-4 days. Then I just toss that mix into the secondary. The rum not only sanitizes the fruit, but also intensifies the flavor as the rum acts as a solvent extracting all the fruit goodness! Just did the same thing last week with a vanilla peach wheat beer. Only used 2 peaches and one vanilla bean (i brew 5g batches) and the aroma and flavor is stellar!

This is a great idea. I've never added fruit to a beer(exception some orange zest to a Belgian doesn't count I think)

If and when the day comes I'll borrow this technique I reckon. Thanks for sharing that, I've not read it elsewher but perhaps it's common knowledge. Not done much reading on fruit beers.

On your original question. I think the longer times are very often as a result of people being in no rush to move the beer off the yeast. Done that myself for various reasons with no ill effects that I could detect.

The other reason is that it's recommended by knowledgeable folks is that it is in the main great advice for less experienced brewers where off flavors may well be an issue. Time to age is no bad thing perhaps.

As we get more experienced and refine our process.
Big fat healthy yeast counts being pitched at correct temperatures and fermentation being carried out in more controlled settings, there is less of an argument to a long time spent in the fermentor. A pushback to many of the nonsense instructions people are given to follow. x days in primary, rack to secondary etc.

Then the thoughts become, once it's done it's done. package it up. This is where I'm at. Packaging my more recent brews including lagers in under 2 weeks. Primary to keg.

I usually brew beers in the 1.045 to 1.055 range and have no experience with a RIS or IIPA or IIIPA etc.

if and when i make a big beer or barley wine i will likely package in a similar time frame once things drop clear and let things age in an 02 poor environment. (sealed keg, carbonated beer)

BTW. I think you have shown a great deal of patience and overt manners in responding to some of the more obnoxious posts in the thread. Well done! The forum always needs more input from such individuals like yourself. Hats off.