Why 2l flask??

[edecambra]

Hello everyone,

So I was wondering, what is the obsession with the 2 liter flasks for starters? When I am using Jamil's pitching rate calc, for my washed yeast, if it is usually over 2 liters depending on the age. I use 1 gallon cider jugs, and often have to split my start between 2, If I have 3 or more liters. The 2 liter flask just isn't big enough.

So why do you guys love them so much, other than the ability to direct heat?

 

[Malticulous]

I don't rinse yeast, have a flask or even use a stir plate. If I had a stir plate I would need a flask. I use a gallon jug, growler or my 1.5L apple juice bottle. If I have fresh slurry I pitch it. When it's too old I dump it.

 

[avidhomebrewer]

I've already made starters in rinsed out, sanitized 1 gallon milk jugs. I don't have a flask, stir plate, or any of that other stuff. I'm along with malticulous.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Personally, I just love being able to tell my nerdy friends that I have a legitimate reason to own a 2L Erlenmeyer flask.

But I think they're popular because the size is adequate for most starters, they're able to be direct fired (as important for sterilization as for boiling your starter *in* the flask), and the shape of the top makes it convenient to add an airlock.

 

[emjay]

2L is adequate for most beers *if you have a stirplate*.

1L flasks, on the other hand, are damn near useless IMO.

 

[Malticulous]

A 1L starter will double your yeast. That is enough if it's fresh and normal gravity.

It's not hard to aerate by hand during the growth phase. It's only a matter of hours. Keep it close and shake it every 15 minutes or so.

It's just that some homebrewers need more things than they really need to make really good beer. Unnecessary tools.

 

[emjay]

A 1L starter will double your yeast. That is enough if it's fresh and normal gravity.

It's not hard to aerate by hand during the growth phase. It's only a matter of hours. Keep it close and shake it every 15 minutes or so.

It's just that some homebrewers need more things than they really need to make really good beer. Unnecessary tools.

"Enough" for what? Even if you use yeast just 2 weeks after production (which isn't not realistic for most people to do consistently), doubling up STILL isn't sufficient if your wort has an OG higher than about 1.060. For most brews that most people make here, the yeast will be considerably less fresh, AND the OG will be higher than that.

 

[Malticulous]

I brew A LOT. I know what works for me. Big beers get slurry, not starters.

 

[emjay]

I brew A LOT. I know what works for me. Big beers get slurry, not starters.

That's fine, but that doesn't negate the the general usefulness of a larger flask, nor warrant the condescending tone of that entire post (especially the latter half.)

Some of us prefer to make whatever beer we want, when we want, rather than have to make a smaller beer every time we want one of a moderate (or higher) OG. Heck, even if I had just a 1L flask, I would rather step up a starter 3 times than HAVE to do that.

 

[samc]

5L flask user. I'd use jugs but they don't work on my stir plate. My most recent stepped up washed yeast starter of 2L had Krausen almost hitting the top foam stopper on the 5L flask, so glad to have it.

 

[Clementine]

I have two x 1000ml flasks and some one said 1000ml was useless I have to agree, they are too small, the only good thing and the reason I like these flasks is I can pressure cook them with wort in them and the stir bar and have perfectly sanitized flat bottom vessel that I can cool instantly in ice, hence I have minimized any chance of an infection. If had not got my flasks for free I would have bought a 2000ml and a 5000ml flask as these are the best sizes (IMO). 2000ml is the right size for a 1000ml starter without risking overflow on a stir plate.

Clem

 

[suprchunk]

I have a 250mL, 500mL, two or three 1L, and a few 2L. I use them all to step up from harvested yeast, either from a slant or from a bottle of commercial beer. Dumping that little amount into a gallon jug would be overkill. Plus those gallon jugs do not work on my stirplates. There are plenty of practical uses for the smaller flasks.

Heaven forbid someone doing something different from other people.

 

[osagedr]

I have a 3 litre that handles all ale starters (stirplate) and a 6 litre that (so far) handles lager starters, which I always chill and decant.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

"Enough" for what? Even if you use yeast just 2 weeks after production (which isn't not realistic for most people to do consistently), doubling up STILL isn't sufficient if your wort has an OG higher than about 1.060. For most brews that most people make here, the yeast will be considerably less fresh, AND the OG will be higher than that.

Some of us started brewing before the MrMalty calculator began being treated as divine revelation. A 1L-1.5L starter IS enough for pretty much any 5gal ale batch someone will do. If you get to that point, temp control on your fermentation will do more for your beer than moving to a starter larger than 1.5L.

 

[Irrenarzt]

I have many flasks but I prefer the 4L as it allows for easier boiling, i.e. less chance of boilover.

 

[emjay]

Some of us started brewing before the MrMalty calculator began being treated as divine revelation. A 1L-1.5L starter IS enough for pretty much any 5gal ale batch someone will do. If you get to that point, temp control on your fermentation will do more for your beer than moving to a starter larger than 1.5L.

I agree temp control will do more, but you're not even in complete disagreement with me. My opinion was that 1L flasks are too small... and they certainly are for 1.5L starters. If you're only going to have one flask, a 2L makes far more sense.

But I disagree with what your post is implying.

First of all, knowledge is knowledge, and tools are tools. Dismissing something that could improve your brews simply because you've been making beer longer than we've known something, or longer than a particular tool based on that knowledge has been available, doesn't mean they should be ignored. There's no reason a long-time brewer can't start propagating more yeast cells to provide a more ideal pitching rate, or buying a larger flask to do it with. If you're fine with the way you do things, that's cool, but giving people the impression that it can't be done better... not so much.

Secondly, I totally agree on the temp control. In fact, I'd go so far as to say temp control will do more for your beer than even making any starter at all (assuming fresh yeast.) Of course, the false dichotomy here should be beyond obvious. There's absolutely no reason it has to be either-or for most people, unless it's a newer brewer who can't afford both. But if somebody wants to invest in the stuff to make a starter, I would always recommend a 2L flask to start with instead of a 1L, and it sounds like you would too.

 

[King of Cascade]

A 1L starter will double your yeast. That is enough if it's fresh and normal gravity.

It's not hard to aerate by hand during the growth phase. It's only a matter of hours. Keep it close and shake it every 15 minutes or so.

It's just that some homebrewers need more things than they really need to make really good beer. Unnecessary tools.

Seriously, the growth phase could last for 18 hours and if you’re shaking it every 15 minutes that 72 time during the growth phase. Do yourself a favor and make an unnecessary stir plate.

 

[JimTheHick]

I brew A LOT. I know what works for me. Big beers get slurry, not starters.

Maybe we could come up with a Mrs. Slurry calculator for those of us that love the convenience of pitching a 1.075 beer on a 1.040 cake!

 

[arg]

While a homemade stir plate made entirely from pieces found in the basement and a $3 stir bar may be "unnecessary," I love mine and my starters have improved greatly while finishing in less time since my initial investment of 15 minutes with a soldering iron.

I would recommend using a flask for starters even if you don't use a stir plate. You can't beat the sterilization of boiling and then fermenting in the same vessel.

 

[Malticulous]

Seriously, the growth phase could last for 18 hours and if you’re shaking it every 15 minutes that 72 time during the growth phase. Do yourself a favor and make an unnecessary stir plate.

That would only happen if the yeast package had very poor viability. Most starters are at FG in less time than that. Once it's producing large amounts of CO2 it's not going to be able to take on oxygen anyway.



A one liter starter will only give half of a doubling of the cell count . Leaving it on a stirplate for too long is only beating up your culture.

I look at the slurry. I want 1/2 cup for a 1.050 batch of ale, twice that for a lager. I tend to get that out of my 1.5L bottle and have to step it up one more time in the gallon jug for lagers.

I think an O2 regulator and tank would serve me better than flask and a stir plate.

 

[suprchunk]

Once it's producing large amounts of CO2 it's not going to be able to take on oxygen anyway.

I think you are assuming that folks aren't allowing for the exchange of air and are keeping their starters sealed away from any oxygen. Most people I've seen doing stir plates actually let the exchange happen, and that is what I do. So they are taking on oxygen, regardless of CO2 production.

 

[Malticulous]

The CO2 purges the O2 (really air.) It's really the first few hours that count.

 

[pickles]

Maybe we could come up with a Mrs. Slurry calculator for those of us that love the convenience of pitching a 1.075 beer on a 1.040 cake!

I know lots of people pitch on a fresh cake, but I just can't see racking fresh wort on the dregs and krausen scum of the beer that came out of the fermentor. I like to quickly rinse the slurry and pitch it in the clean fermentor.

 

[Malticulous]

Washing is done with acid of a pH <3. Rinsing is what is commonly called washing here at HBT. The low pH kills bacteria. I have not tasted any benefits form rinsing yeast. I don't necessarily recommend pitching on a whole cake but the slurry is useful as it is. A half cup of thick fresh slurry works as well well as a pack of dry yeast.

 

[King of Cascade]

Washing is done with acid of a pH <3. Rinsing is what is commonly called washing here at HBT. The low pH kills bacteria. I have not tasted any benefits form rinsing yeast. I don't necessarily recommend pitching on a whole cake but the slurry is useful as it is. A half cup of thick fresh slurry works as well well as a pack of dry yeast.

Not entirely true&#8230;if the slurry is old then yes but if you catch the slurry 24 hours after it flocculates then there is no comparison.




ETA: Nobody washes anymore its like (quoting a friend of mine) pouring alcohol on your junk after having sex with a hooker; It&#8217;s not going to make much of a difference the damage is already done. With that said, I don&#8217;t understand the whole rising thing either. I think pitching the whole slurry works just fine without causing off flavors. Its not going to make the yeast last longer during storage and it only risks contamination.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

If somebody wants to invest in the stuff to make a starter, I would always recommend a 2L flask to start with instead of a 1L, and it sounds like you would too.

Your original reply made me think you were questioning the size of the starter, not the size of the flask. I would agree that a 1L flask is probably not useful for basic starters, because you won't have a chance at fitting a 1L starter in a 1L flask.

My point was that a 1-1.5L starter is more than adequate for most beers, is a huge improvement over no starter at all, and even if it doesn't reach MrMalty required cell counts, is getting you 90%+ of the way there. And, of course, we both agree that a 1-1.5L starter requires a 2L vessel. So I'd definitely say that a 2L vessel should be a minimum recommendation. Anything smaller (as a *first* vessel) would be a waste of money.

 

[Accidic]

The only erlenmeyer I have is 1L which I use to make sure my yeast is good which works fine for low to med grav. If I need bigger I move to a cider jug post 1£ with great results. For a stir plate I copied someones walkthru for using an old computer fan and a 9v with a hard drive magnet glued on top. Sorry I don't remember the exact source but I found it with search. Old SCSI drive magnets are phenomenal for this. It spins through the jug even with a moderate cutting board on top.

 

[Chefencore]

Seriously, the growth phase could last for 18 hours and if you&#146;re shaking it every 15 minutes that 72 time during the growth phase. Do yourself a favor and make an unnecessary stir plate.

The yeast whisperer strikes again!